Confirmed with Link: Joel Edmundson awarded 3.1 in arbitration

[Ted Hoffman]

Mike Condon played 3 professional hockey games last year. He posted an .800 in 2 NHL starts and a .739 in his single AHL start. That was a total of 14 goals allowed in 135 minutes. He has had one NHL season where his SV% was higher than Jake Allen's career worst. He was sidelined most of last season due to hip issues on the same hip he has already had surgically repaired. A cortisone injection didn't do anything and then he finally underwent an experimental stem cell treatment to fix the issue. He hasn't played a game since the treatment. That is far from a serviceable option, is almost certainly a huge downgrade from Jake Allen, only saves us $1.9 mil in cap space this year and is a huge injury risk. Hard, hard pass.

While I'm going to back off the "get Condon" idea [see below], I would not simply point to last season and say "stay away." I did totally miss the hip issue, though - so yeah, that would deter me.

I just don't know what we gain from rolling with Allen on this roster, other than "he wasn't terrible last season once he lost the #1 spot" and "we're concerned everyone else could be worse." He's not a #1, he's not carrying this team for long stretches of success, and he's sure as hell not doing what Binnington did last season. If there's a chance to move him and find someone else, I say do it. The league already knows he's not a #1 guy, you're really just trying to catch someone who's desperate for help in net and will overlook that. Besides, if we really thought the guy who backstopped us to 16 postseason wins wasn't the guy going forward, many people here would have been screaming to sell high on him. The best everyone could do was say "go short-term." Great; he's under contract for 2 years - throw your weight behind him, jettison dead weight, find someone else who can at least be competent in the backup role.

I'm not sure why Philly would trade Elliott for Allen. Elliott is by all accounts a good pro and mentor for Carter Hart, he is a known quantity within the Flyers organization and they just signed him less than 2 months ago. This isn't an EA game, that's just not going to happen.

Go re-read my qualifier with respect to that comment, in the context of a prior remark.

Edit: there are 5 current UFA goalies who played 1 or more NHL games this year. Ward, Johnson, McKenna, Darling, and Neuvirth. Darling and Neuvirth played fewer than 10 games and none of those guys hit the .900 SV% mark.

It's a thin market. Ward is at the end of his career, Johnson ....., McKenna is a super-AHL sub-NHL guy, Darling is back to his pre-wonder season form, and Neuvirth has had injury issues for a while now. Even separating last season's stats from actual ability, no one screams "potential bargain worth taking a chance on" in that group. Our best option is to plumb someone's roster where someone is carrying 3+ goalies and could stand to unload cap space; hence, why I looked at Tampa.

tampa is pretty openly trying to move domingue instead of condon, aren't they?

Are they? I'm going to be honest, I've been tuned out of the NHL much of the summer switching jobs and residences and getting family re-settled. I'm not opposed to Domingue if he's out there; we just need someone who's going to be competent and can carry the load for a few games when need be. We're not looking for Winnington 2.0 here.

ottawa is my preference for trying to move allen. anderson can't play forever and they don't seem to have anyone ready in the pipeline. there's always the chance our old friend anders nilsson gets a crack at the job. allen might be the a good fit for them next off season with only one year, maybe even at the deadline if binnington keeps up his play.

I don't know if Ottawa takes on salary for next season with Hogberg on a 1-way deal. I wouldn't be opposed to swapping Allen for Anderson, but I think it's kind of evident that Melnyk is trying to be cheap at the moment; I could see him veto a deal over $3.3 million [the difference between Allen's salary in 20-21 and Hogberg's salary in 20-21].

 

[Ted Hoffman]

Allen regaining his mojo is as unlikely as a last place team in January winning the Stanley Cup.

Less likely. We've seen Allen for about 6 years now, longer if you want to go back to juniors. At this point in his career, he's really unlikely to reinvent himself and clean up the issues with his game.

Possible? Of course - but ... well, it's thinking like that which has gotten numerous coaches and GMs fired over the years across pro sports. Before I entertain the thought, I want to hear the argument for how someone who's now 29 going into his 10th pro season and 6th full NHL season is suddenly going to do what he hasn't done in the years leading up to this point despite all the oft-mentioned talent he has, and that now all that talent is going to get unlocked.

 

[blues hillbilly]

Less likely. We've seen Allen for about 6 years now, longer if you want to go back to juniors. At this point in his career, he's really unlikely to reinvent himself and clean up the issues with his game.

Possible? Of course - but ... well, it's thinking like that which has gotten numerous coaches and GMs fired over the years across pro sports. Before I entertain the thought, I want to hear the argument for how someone who's now 29 going into his 10th pro season and 6th full NHL season is suddenly going to do what he hasn't done in the years leading up to this point despite all the oft-mentioned talent he has, and that now all that talent is going to get unlocked.

As far as I'm concerned Allen can't be gone soon enough for me.

I wouldn't mind seeing a revolving door of our young guys. Give them a taste.

May be too late now to change horses in the middle of the offseason stream.

 

[DatDude44]

If both move on, we'd still have Gunnarsson and Dunn with $6.35M of cleared space to go out and get another top 4 and 7th D. I think that was the theory behind signing Gunnar for 2 years at cheap. It gives us two LD for next year if both UFA move on. I really don't see Bo leaving unless he retires though. I have a feeling Eddy is done here though, as a UFA if not before.

Still there are actually some pretty good LD coming off of their contracts next season. Toronto may not be able to afford to re-up Muzzin. Scandella and Spurgeon might want to join a winner. Brodie and Krug aren't your cup of tea, but are possibilities as their teams have young LD who could push for time. We might also be able to grab a one-year rental if a 2021 free agent is not in a team's plans (Brodin, Murray?).

Muzzin/Spurgeon - Pietragnelo
Dunn - Parayko
Gunnarsson - Bortuzzo
Mikkola/Reinke

That's actually a better top 6 if one or more of those guys can be ready to be a 7th, and should cost close to the same amount as if we had given Edmundson and Bo more money for longer term.

Totally agree with this, except scandella, I live in buffalo, the dude is absolutely atrocious and has been passed up by guys like Dahlin(obvi) Pilut, McCabe, Montour and Borgen. Actually wouldn’t be surprised if the Sabre’s bought him out since they’re 3 mill over the cap

 

[GoldenSeal]

As far as I'm concerned Allen can't be gone soon enough for me.

I wouldn't mind seeing a revolving door of our young guys. Give them a taste.

May be too late now to change horses in the middle of the offseason stream.

I'd consider buying Allen out once we got a solid backup in from the youth corps. He's shown a ton of character and has been such a good locker room presence that I would go out of my way to do right by him, but the fact of the matter is the sooner he's not a Blue, the better.

 

[Majorityof1]

Totally agree with this, except scandella, I live in buffalo, the dude is absolutely atrocious and has been passed up by guys like Dahlin(obvi) Pilut, McCabe, Montour and Borgen. Actually wouldn’t be surprised if the Sabre’s bought him out since they’re 3 mill over the cap

Fair enough. I know he's been bad in Buffalo, but wasn't sure if it was something a change of scenery could fix. I have not watched him a ton the past 2 years. I threw him out there because at one point he was a a top 4 caliber LHD that is not too old. He wouldn't be my first choice of those listed.

 

[STL fan in MN]

I'd consider buying Allen out once we got a solid backup in from the youth corps. He's shown a ton of character and has been such a good locker room presence that I would go out of my way to do right by him, but the fact of the matter is the sooner he's not a Blue, the better.

Why is this a fact in your mind?

To me, Allen has shown he doesn’t have the consistency or mental make-up to be a relief upon starter but he’s still probably around the 25th-35th best goalie in the league, out of 62ish goalies. That’s a great guy to have as your backup. Yeah, he’s way overpaid as a backup but for this next season, opening up that Cap space isn’t completely necessary.

It does become more of an issue in 2020-21 though. But I doubt Allen would have to be bought out if they want to move him later this season or next summer. Some Blues fans seem to think of him as pure garbage and not even NHL caliber but that’s simply not backed up by much of anything. He’s shown he’s not a great NHL starter but that’s a much different thing. There’s going to be teams that need goaltending and unless Jake falls off a cliff, he should be able to be traded. He won’t be worth much but he’s not the huge albatross contract it appears some think he is IMO.

 

[Brian39]

While I'm going to back off the "get Condon" idea [see below], I would not simply point to last season and say "stay away." I did totally miss the hip issue, though - so yeah, that would deter me.

I just don't know what we gain from rolling with Allen on this roster, other than "he wasn't terrible last season once he lost the #1 spot" and "we're concerned everyone else could be worse." He's not a #1, he's not carrying this team for long stretches of success, and he's sure as hell not doing what Binnington did last season. If there's a chance to move him and find someone else, I say do it. The league already knows he's not a #1 guy, you're really just trying to catch someone who's desperate for help in net and will overlook that. Besides, if we really thought the guy who backstopped us to 16 postseason wins wasn't the guy going forward, many people here would have been screaming to sell high on him. The best everyone could do was say "go short-term." Great; he's under contract for 2 years - throw your weight behind him, jettison dead weight, find someone else who can at least be competent in the backup role.


Go re-read my qualifier with respect to that comment, in the context of a prior remark.


It's a thin market. Ward is at the end of his career, Johnson ....., McKenna is a super-AHL sub-NHL guy, Darling is back to his pre-wonder season form, and Neuvirth has had injury issues for a while now. Even separating last season's stats from actual ability, no one screams "potential bargain worth taking a chance on" in that group. Our best option is to plumb someone's roster where someone is carrying 3+ goalies and could stand to unload cap space; hence, why I looked at Tampa.


Are they? I'm going to be honest, I've been tuned out of the NHL much of the summer switching jobs and residences and getting family re-settled. I'm not opposed to Domingue if he's out there; we just need someone who's going to be competent and can carry the load for a few games when need be. We're not looking for Winnington 2.0 here.


I don't know if Ottawa takes on salary for next season with Hogberg on a 1-way deal. I wouldn't be opposed to swapping Allen for Anderson, but I think it's kind of evident that Melnyk is trying to be cheap at the moment; I could see him veto a deal over $3.3 million [the difference between Allen's salary in 20-21 and Hogberg's salary in 20-21].

To the bolded: Allen was a .922 goalie from Binny's first start to the end of the season. That was 13th in the NHL among 67 goalies who played more than 5 games in that stretch. 16th among the 81 goalies who played an NHL game in that stretch. That's a hell of a lot better than simply "wasn't terrible" and is certainly better than "at least competent" in the backup role. That's elite level backup production over those 3 months. I don't think Allen is a .922 over a full year as a backup, but I have also seen multiple examples of him able to play well as a backup/1B but not be able to handle a 55-60 start workload and crumble. His best stretches when Hutton was here were when he was losing (or had lost) his job. He posted a .920 through 44 starts in 2015/16. He posted a .913 his first full NHL year through 32 starts (Ells posted a .917 as the 1A/starter for comparison).

You seem to be coming at this from the mindset that Allen is not a competent backup and/or that anyone's expectations are for him to win back the starting job. The former has been objectively untrue through all the 6 years of data you claim to rely on and literally no one expects or wants him to be the starter here. I don't expect him to reinvent himself. I expect him to continue being a .915+ goalie when he's not a starter. Every piece of data in his career supports this expectation and suggests that he has a chance to be closer to .920 in that role. Only 10 of the 31 goalies with 10-35 games played topped .910 last year. Only 7 were .915 or higher. The vast majority of teams in the NHL aren't getting the type of production from their backups that we should expect from Allen.

In today's NHL, it is more important than ever to have a good backup. Starters are playing fewer and fewer games. Teams have finally recognized that there are only a handful of guys who can handle 60 starts. Only 8 did it last year. Only 12 hit the 55 game mark and 17 hit the 50 start mark. 2 of those 17 goalies with 50+ starts made it out of the 1st round of the playoffs. The 3 Vezina candidates were 13th, 24th and 25th in games started. There wasn't a single 60 start goalie in the top 10 for SV% this year (even when you remove all goalies who played fewer than 30 games). The writing is on the wall. Unless you have a truly elite starter, you need 25-35 starts out of your backup in today's NHL. Even if you have an elite starter, you're better off if you have the luxury of a backup who can give you 25+ games.

Ignoring contract, Jake Allen is a better option as the backup than anyone we could realistically acquire. We don't need the cap space this year. We have the luxury of being able to overpay our backup by a couple million dollars. He needs to get moved next summer when we no longer have that luxury, but there is no sense in gambling on someone from outside the organization to fill the role Allen should be able to fill this season.

This division is brutal and making the playoffs (while likely) isn't a guarantee. Downgrading the goalie position for the 25-30 games we will be playing a backup is not a good idea. Playing our backup 25 times means that Binny would start 57 games. That would have been tied for 10th in the NHL last year. Having a first year starter play more than that is a great way to set him up for failure. So we absolutely need our backup to play 25-30 times.

 

[Brian39]

Why is this a fact in your mind?

To me, Allen has shown he doesn’t have the consistency or mental make-up to be a relief upon starter but he’s still probably around the 25th-35th best goalie in the league, out of 62ish goalies. That’s a great guy to have as your backup. Yeah, he’s way overpaid as a backup but for this next season, opening up that Cap space isn’t completely necessary.

It does become more of an issue in 2020-21 though. But I doubt Allen would have to be bought out if they want to move him later this season or next summer. Some Blues fans seem to think of him as pure garbage and not even NHL caliber but that’s simply not backed up by much of anything. He’s shown he’s not a great NHL starter but that’s a much different thing. There’s going to be teams that need goaltending and unless Jake falls off a cliff, he should be able to be traded. He won’t be worth much but he’s not the huge albatross contract it appears some think he is IMO.

Even if you approach it with the mindset that he is garbage and on an albatross contract, trading him with just 1 year remaining would be a hell of a lot easier than doing it with 2 years remaining.

 

[GoldenSeal]

Why is this a fact in your mind?

To me, Allen has shown he doesn’t have the consistency or mental make-up to be a relief upon starter but he’s still probably around the 25th-35th best goalie in the league, out of 62ish goalies. That’s a great guy to have as your backup. Yeah, he’s way overpaid as a backup but for this next season, opening up that Cap space isn’t completely necessary.

It does become more of an issue in 2020-21 though. But I doubt Allen would have to be bought out if they want to move him later this season or next summer. Some Blues fans seem to think of him as pure garbage and not even NHL caliber but that’s simply not backed up by much of anything. He’s shown he’s not a great NHL starter but that’s a much different thing. There’s going to be teams that need goaltending and unless Jake falls off a cliff, he should be able to be traded. He won’t be worth much but he’s not the huge albatross contract it appears some think he is IMO.

He is the worst kind of unreliable. Yes, it's a fact and I'll stand by it.

 

[SneakerPimp82]

To the bolded: Allen was a .922 goalie from Binny's first start to the end of the season. That was 13th in the NHL among 67 goalies who played more than 5 games in that stretch. 16th among the 81 goalies who played an NHL game in that stretch. That's a hell of a lot better than simply "wasn't terrible" and is certainly better than "at least competent" in the backup role. That's elite level backup production over those 3 months. I don't think Allen is a .922 over a full year as a backup, but I have also seen multiple examples of him able to play well as a backup/1B but not be able to handle a 55-60 start workload and crumble. His best stretches when Hutton was here were when he was losing (or had lost) his job. He posted a .920 through 44 starts in 2015/16. He posted a .913 his first full NHL year through 32 starts (Ells posted a .917 as the 1A/starter for comparison).

You seem to be coming at this from the mindset that Allen is not a competent backup and/or that anyone's expectations are for him to win back the starting job. The former has been objectively untrue through all the 6 years of data you claim to rely on and literally no one expects or wants him to be the starter here. I don't expect him to reinvent himself. I expect him to continue being a .915+ goalie when he's not a starter. Every piece of data in his career supports this expectation and suggests that he has a chance to be closer to .920 in that role. Only 10 of the 31 goalies with 10-35 games played topped .910 last year. Only 7 were .915 or higher. The vast majority of teams in the NHL aren't getting the type of production from their backups that we should expect from Allen.

In today's NHL, it is more important than ever to have a good backup. Starters are playing fewer and fewer games. Teams have finally recognized that there are only a handful of guys who can handle 60 starts. Only 8 did it last year. Only 12 hit the 55 game mark and 17 hit the 50 start mark. 2 of those 17 goalies with 50+ starts made it out of the 1st round of the playoffs. The 3 Vezina candidates were 13th, 24th and 25th in games started. There wasn't a single 60 start goalie in the top 10 for SV% this year (even when you remove all goalies who played fewer than 30 games). The writing is on the wall. Unless you have a truly elite starter, you need 25-35 starts out of your backup in today's NHL. Even if you have an elite starter, you're better off if you have the luxury of a backup who can give you 25+ games.

Ignoring contract, Jake Allen is a better option as the backup than anyone we could realistically acquire. We don't need the cap space this year. We have the luxury of being able to overpay our backup by a couple million dollars. He needs to get moved next summer when we no longer have that luxury, but there is no sense in gambling on someone from outside the organization to fill the role Allen should be able to fill this season.

This division is brutal and making the playoffs (while likely) isn't a guarantee. Downgrading the goalie position for the 25-30 games we will be playing a backup is not a good idea. Playing our backup 25 times means that Binny would start 57 games. That would have been tied for 10th in the NHL last year. Having a first year starter play more than that is a great way to set him up for failure. So we absolutely need our backup to play 25-30 times.

This s**t right here. Great post.

 

[execwrite1]

Note - Armstrong won't be buying out any of these contracts. The math is terrible. It just extends out the payments and hurts your salary cap position longer.

 

[Brian39]

Note - Armstrong won't be buying out any of these contracts. The math is terrible. It just extends out the payments and hurts your salary cap position longer.

I think there is a slight possibility that we buy out Steen next summer. It won't be Army's first choice, but if he completely falls off and can't be traded without giving up a major asset then it is feasible. Since his salary is only $3.5 mil in 2020/21, it would give us $2.3 mil in savings for that 20/21 and just a $1.16 hit in 2021/22. If his contract can't get moved AND he is no longer contributing on the 4th line, that is probably the best option.

 

[Majorityof1]

Note - Armstrong won't be buying out any of these contracts. The math is terrible. It just extends out the payments and hurts your salary cap position longer.

I agree we probably wont buy out anyone either, as they are probably movable with some retention next summer. Retaining the full 50% is the same cap savings for next year without the extra year of cap. Still buying them out with with 1 year left isn't terrible if it becomes something we have to do. Buying out both Allen and Steen will save us $5M next year ($2.67 on Allen and $2.33 on Steen). For that savings, we only get a hit of $2.5M in the next year. While this means the total savings is only $2.5M, it also helps smooth the hits by spreading them over multiple years, which with the rising cap may make it more palatable.

If (1) we need cap for Petro, Schenn and Dunn, and (2) if we have cheap but adequate replacements for Steen and Allen and (3) we cannot easily move them in a retained trade, then and only then does it make sense to buy them out.

 

[BlueDream]

Note - Armstrong won't be buying out any of these contracts. The math is terrible. It just extends out the payments and hurts your salary cap position longer.

We 100% need to look into buying him out next summer. He is going to be 36 and not effective and having his 5.35 cap hit will hurt.

I’m very confident we will be able to replace his leadership and 4th line duty in a year.

 

[BlueOil]

We 100% need to look into buying him out next summer. He is going to be 36 and not effective and having his 5.35 cap hit will hurt.

I’m very confident we will be able to replace his leadership and 4th line duty in a year.

if steen's contract is bought out, it really only offers us significant cap savings this year, so it'd be pointless to do it next summer imo. not to mention, it eats into the cap after he's gone too.

if he's bought out next summer, it saves us $2.333 in cap hit. i'd still argue moving sanford's $1.5 mil contract somehow would be a better use of team resources, as steen is still a better player than sanford, though he is slower.

buyout projection from capfriendly:

edit: updated to reflect the scenario presented

 

[Chojin]

There's just no way Steen will get bought out. The only way he's not on the roster is if he waives his NTC, which is theoretically possible if he gets tired of playing in the bottom 6.

Anyway, I don't see Edmundson on the team after this season. History shows that there are more that enough teams willing to overpay young-ish defensemen who make it to UFA, and I can't imagine Edmundson is super happy with how negotiations have gone for the past few years.

 

[SneakerPimp82]

if steen's contract is bought out, it really only offers us significant cap savings this year, so it'd be pointless to do it next summer imo. not to mention, it eats into the cap after he's gone too.

if he's bought out next summer, it saves us $2.333 in cap hit. i'd still argue moving sanford's $1.5 mil contract somehow would be a better use of team resources, as steen is still a better player than sanford, though he is slower.

buyout projection from capfriendly:
View attachment 248759

edit: updated to reflect the scenario presented

So you're assuming Sanford basically stagnates the next 2 seasons? I don't think the Blues would've given him that contract if they thought he'd not improve. Though at that price, it's not that much a risk, it's basically Barbashev money.

 

[Brian39]

There's just no way Steen will get bought out. The only way he's not on the roster is if he waives his NTC, which is theoretically possible if he gets tired of playing in the bottom 6.

Anyway, I don't see Edmundson on the team after this season. History shows that there are more that enough teams willing to overpay young-ish defensemen who make it to UFA, and I can't imagine Edmundson is super happy with how negotiations have gone for the past few years.

I'd be shocked if he is here beyond July 1, 2020. Assuming an extension isn't going to happen, I'm really hoping that he has a career year and earns himself a huge 7 year contract from another team. Our blue line would be the best in hockey if Eddy can be a reliable 20+ minute a night partner for Petro and Dunn takes a small step forward. Even if it just lasts a year, that level D group gives this team a real chance to repeat.

 

[BlueOil]

So you're assuming Sanford basically stagnates the next 2 seasons? I don't think the Blues would've given him that contract if they thought he'd not improve. Though at that price, it's not that much a risk, it's basically Barbashev money.

i'm not assuming he stagnates, i just don't think he'll have a better skill set than an aging steen in the next two years. outside of being slower, i don't think sanford has the upper hand in any category on steen. even with regularly better line mates last year, he was worse than steen.

 

[Ranksu]

One thing that I think will be sorely missed if we trade Edmundson, is the size and physicality he brings to our left side. I know this element is unimportant to many of our posters, but I think it was an important part of our post season success. He is also a good skater for his size, which makes that physicality even more effective, and allows him to play better positionally. Where I think he struggles is ability to read a play. He also tries to do too much. If he focused solely on defense, he can be a very effective shutdown defenseman.

I was almost posting he hasnt been that physical, but lurking his stats he got most hits/GP this season compare to previous. Idk, but my eye test say he isnt that physical at front of net than what Bortuzzo is. Box out opposite forward.

Btw it wasnt smart to post Boston forum about Backes. Got 2 week ban but it was worth it. Everybody get pissed my comment.

 

[BlueDream]

if steen's contract is bought out, it really only offers us significant cap savings this year, so it'd be pointless to do it next summer imo. not to mention, it eats into the cap after he's gone too.

if he's bought out next summer, it saves us $2.333 in cap hit. i'd still argue moving sanford's $1.5 mil contract somehow would be a better use of team resources, as steen is still a better player than sanford, though he is slower.

buyout projection from capfriendly:
View attachment 248759

edit: updated to reflect the scenario presented

Keeping a 36-year old making 5.35 mil over a 25-year old at 1.5 mil would be absolutely horrendous cap management. Especially when you consider all Sanford would have to do is hold a 4th line spot. That’s not a tall task.

We would only have to pay Steen an additional year but to get that cap relief is more important.

 

[Xerloris]

Wasting money with buyouts is not how the Blues do business. Our owner as great as he is is not a billionaire.

 

[Ranksu]

Move allen already

Yes. Too-da-loo Allen.

 

[Klank Loves You]

Wasting money with buyouts is not how the Blues do business. Our owner as great as he is is not a billionaire.

I think if push came to shove, Stillman would do it if it meant we could bring in someone like Stone, last year. But ya, Army is going to bend over backwards to not put Stillman in that position.