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Ted Hoffman

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To the bolded: Allen was a .922 goalie from Binny's first start to the end of the season. That was 13th in the NHL among 67 goalies who played more than 5 games in that stretch. 16th among the 81 goalies who played an NHL game in that stretch. That's a hell of a lot better than simply "wasn't terrible" and is certainly better than "at least competent" in the backup role. That's elite level backup production over those 3 months. I don't think Allen is a .922 over a full year as a backup, but I have also seen multiple examples of him able to play well as a backup/1B but not be able to handle a 55-60 start workload and crumble. His best stretches when Hutton was here were when he was losing (or had lost) his job. He posted a .920 through 44 starts in 2015/16. He posted a .913 his first full NHL year through 32 starts (Ells posted a .917 as the 1A/starter for comparison).
If we're cherry-picking samples, can I cherry-pick the stretch from December, 2017 to December 2018 when he was shit on a stick? Yeah, guys were hurt and guys were trying to figure out how to play together and on and on, but the simple fact is he was brutally bad when the team needed him to pick them up. Do I need to go back and dig out post after post where people here cited his staggering ability to get beaten on bad angles, fail to position himself at the post like a normal goalie, and his amazing ability to slide halfway across the rink half a dozen times a game while misjudging the puck and leave the net gaping wide for everyone on the opposing team to shoot at and force his guys to go try and block the net out as he stared back helplessly watching? Or his ordinary f***ups where he glared at his teammates for whatever reason he was imagining instead of sacking up and trying to get better and not f*** up the next time?

What do I see? I see "he only picks his game up when he's getting pushed" and that tells me as soon as he gets back in net as the #1 for whatever reason, he's going to get content and lazy and go back to being Shaky Jake. That's been him for years, and he by and large withers under the pressure. Sorry, I'm not interested in forking over even mid-level dollars to someone who only gives a crap long enough to get his spot and then slacks off and can't be counted on for more than about 6-8 weeks at a time [if that]. I'm really not interested in someone who for years has had bad fundamentals and has relied much more on reflexes than solid positioning.

Obviously, your motives vary. That's fine. You've got your opinion, I've got mine. I just don't see where we're better off paying $4+ million to a headcase when we could pay about half of that to someone at least moderately competent but much more steady.
 

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I think MacMac could replace Steen easily at this next season. Steen leg speed isn't that good anymore. MacMac would be better forechecher at this point than Steen. Only where I see Steen has more skills tähän majority of Blues forward group is at d-zone coverage and blocking shot right way.

Still having Steen in 4th line is luxury.

Hopefully MacMac can improve so he would drive Steen in the pressbox time and kid could develope playing.

Barbashev - Sundqvist - MacMac

Can you ask better 2-way lineup whit hard hitters and forechechers? MacMac would be ideal player in that duo (Barby + Sunny).
 

STL fan in MN

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I think MacMac could replace Steen easily at this next season. Steen leg speed isn't that good anymore. MacMac would be better forechecher at this point than Steen. Only where I see Steen has more skills tähän majority of Blues forward group is at d-zone coverage and blocking shot right way.

Still having Steen in 4th line is luxury.

Hopefully MacMac can improve so he would drive Steen in the pressbox time and kid could develope playing.

Barbashev - Sundqvist - MacMac

Can you ask better 2-way lineup whit hard hitters and forechechers? MacMac would be ideal player in that duo (Barby + Sunny).

MacEachern would have to improve quite a bit to be a better option than Steen IMO. Or Steen would have to regress quite a bit more or a combo of those 2 things.

I could see the merit in replacing Steen with MacMac if the goal was to jettison Steen elsewhere to save the money/spend the cap space on someone else (but as discussed before, good luck getting Steen to waive that NTC) but to just push Steen to the pressbox, there’s not much of a point IMO.

Steen is way overpaid for a bottom-6 forward these days but he was still way more effective than MacMac and even Barbs for that matter. And while all of Steen, MacMac and Barbs shoot left, Steen is the only one so far to show proficiency playing RW.
 
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Stupendous Yappi

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If we're cherry-picking samples, can I cherry-pick the stretch from December, 2017 to December 2018 when he was **** on a stick? Yeah, guys were hurt and guys were trying to figure out how to play together and on and on, but the simple fact is he was brutally bad when the team needed him to pick them up. Do I need to go back and dig out post after post where people here cited his staggering ability to get beaten on bad angles, fail to position himself at the post like a normal goalie, and his amazing ability to slide halfway across the rink half a dozen times a game while misjudging the puck and leave the net gaping wide for everyone on the opposing team to shoot at and force his guys to go try and block the net out as he stared back helplessly watching? Or his ordinary ****ups where he glared at his teammates for whatever reason he was imagining instead of sacking up and trying to get better and not **** up the next time?

What do I see? I see "he only picks his game up when he's getting pushed" and that tells me as soon as he gets back in net as the #1 for whatever reason, he's going to get content and lazy and go back to being Shaky Jake. That's been him for years, and he by and large withers under the pressure. Sorry, I'm not interested in forking over even mid-level dollars to someone who only gives a crap long enough to get his spot and then slacks off and can't be counted on for more than about 6-8 weeks at a time [if that]. I'm really not interested in someone who for years has had bad fundamentals and has relied much more on reflexes than solid positioning.

Obviously, your motives vary. That's fine. You've got your opinion, I've got mine. I just don't see where we're better off paying $4+ million to a headcase when we could pay about half of that to someone at least moderately competent but much more steady.


Who is that, in terms of a realistic move that could happen for this coming season?

I don’t disagree with most of what you said above, but I still don’t see how they could move Allen now without downgrading the back-up spot in order to save cap space they won’t use this year. Or if they do, it would be at the trade deadline, and philosophically I don’t think big acquisitions tend to pan out in the playoffs. So I just don’t see the point in worrying about Allen this season. If things go along the trajectory they have been, Allen will be a competent to very good back-up, Binnington will solidify himself as an above average (probably more likely ‘average’) starter, and the Blues will move Allen in the off-season for his final year.

I don’t see the point in arguing about Allen’s role or how much he’s overpaid during this coming season, if that’s how it plays out. But if Binnington falters badly and Allen DOES end up functioning as the starter again at some point this season, things could get interesting. Well, it’s only very interesting if Allen plays well.

I don’t think anyone in St Louis is ever going to trust Allen as a long term starter again. A lot depends on Husso’s development, too, as to what is realistic next year.

To my mind, the Blues only have trouble with how to handle Allen if Binnington lays a big egg this year. Otherwise he’s here for at most this one more season, maybe even moved before season’s end if Binnington and Husso look solid enough to be the tandem, and another team has a big enough need to come calling. I have more questions about Husso right now than about Allen.

If you had to pick today between Binnington/Allen or Binnington/Husso, it’s obvious that the 2nd option is inferior. Yeah, it’s cheaper, but the Blues want to contend again this year. The point at which that question starts to look like a draw, that’s when I’d seriously entertain shipping out Allen. Because (back to my original question), I don’t see a realistic deal today that doesn’t end up with the Blues having an inferior back-up in return.
 

Brian39

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If we're cherry-picking samples, can I cherry-pick the stretch from December, 2017 to December 2018 when he was **** on a stick? Yeah, guys were hurt and guys were trying to figure out how to play together and on and on, but the simple fact is he was brutally bad when the team needed him to pick them up. Do I need to go back and dig out post after post where people here cited his staggering ability to get beaten on bad angles, fail to position himself at the post like a normal goalie, and his amazing ability to slide halfway across the rink half a dozen times a game while misjudging the puck and leave the net gaping wide for everyone on the opposing team to shoot at and force his guys to go try and block the net out as he stared back helplessly watching? Or his ordinary ****ups where he glared at his teammates for whatever reason he was imagining instead of sacking up and trying to get better and not **** up the next time?

What do I see? I see "he only picks his game up when he's getting pushed" and that tells me as soon as he gets back in net as the #1 for whatever reason, he's going to get content and lazy and go back to being Shaky Jake. That's been him for years, and he by and large withers under the pressure. Sorry, I'm not interested in forking over even mid-level dollars to someone who only gives a crap long enough to get his spot and then slacks off and can't be counted on for more than about 6-8 weeks at a time [if that]. I'm really not interested in someone who for years has had bad fundamentals and has relied much more on reflexes than solid positioning.

Obviously, your motives vary. That's fine. You've got your opinion, I've got mine. I just don't see where we're better off paying $4+ million to a headcase when we could pay about half of that to someone at least moderately competent but much more steady.

Jake Allen posted a .903 during the stretch you cherry picked, which put him right in the middle of the pack for backups during that time period. So again, this assertion that he was "**** on a stick" is just not based in the reality of what an NHL backup looks like. No matter what year long sample size you want to choose, he has been at worst a middle of the road backup. Other year-long samples show him as a top end backup and all of the samples when he was playing an actual backup/1B role show him as a top-end backup. He is not good enough to be a starter. You are still the only person making references to him getting the net back as #1. Literally no one else is clamoring for that or believes it is a possibility barring injury or complete collapse by Binny (neither of which is likely).

No one is disputing that when he is bad, he is really bad. Welcome to the backup goalie market. That's the reason why most backups are backups. There are easily 100 goalies in North America whose best is good enough to be an NHL starter. What separates most of them from actual starting goalies are the lows and the ability to bring the A game more than the D game. Your claim that there are a wealth of cheap backups who will be consistent and post good overall numbers is not supported by reality.

I think you are vastly underestimating or completely ignoring just how many NHL teams watch their backup play like Allen's worst 6-8 week stretches for an entire season.
 
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Ranksu

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I kind of hope Allen gets hurt so Husso will get his change up.

Is there option för Husso get call-up IF Allen plays poorly or we just ride with Binnington?
 

Brian39

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I kind of hope Allen gets hurt so Husso will get his change up.

Is there option för Husso get call-up IF Allen plays poorly or we just ride with Binnington?

Husso needs starts. He's only getting called up if a goalie gets hurt or if both the NHL goalies are so bad (and Husso is very good in the AHL) that we are throwing a hail mary to try and save the season. Husso posted an .871 in the AHL last year. He has not earned an NHL chance.
 
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MissouriMook

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I kind of hope Allen gets hurt so Husso will get his change up.

Is there option för Husso get call-up IF Allen plays poorly or we just ride with Binnington?
That is certainly possible, but you'd have to send Allen to the AHL and that pretty much costs you whatever trade value he may or may not have.

Edit: Such a move also frees up $325K in cap space. Husso's hit is $700 and Allen buried would be $1.025M.
 

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Husso needs starts. He's only getting called up if a goalie gets hurt or if both the NHL goalies are so bad (and Husso is very good in the AHL) that we are throwing a hail mary to try and save the season. Husso posted an .871 in the AHL last year. He has not earned an NHL chance.
Hopefully Husso imoroves his stats at AHL.

I dont believe there is any change Binny will regress as bad what Allen is, one the worst starter goaltender in NHL.

I just wish Allen plays good enough se dont have to bought him out next off-season.

IF Fabbri cant develope anymore could we use him with Allen in tradeblock?
 

Brian39

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Hopefully Husso imoroves his stats at AHL.

I dont believe there is any change Binny will regress as bad what Allen is, one the worst starter goaltender in NHL.

I just wish Allen plays good enough se dont have to bought him out next off-season.

IF Fabbri cant develope anymore could we use him with Allen in tradeblock?

I feel pretty good that Binny will be at least an adequate starter. He has a few mechanical issues that concern me, but nothing so egregious that I think it causes his whole game to fall apart. I really hate the way he holds his glove and lifts his left pad up to compensate and SJ/Boston figured it out and started waiting for him to lift the leg before sliding it under him. But that's a correctable thing that shouldn't be such a large adjustment that it causes a domino effect.

He's the guy to start the season and I expect him to remain the guy throughout the season. I think Allen is good enough through 25-30 starts that his contract is easy to move next summer when it is just 1 year remaining and teams feel comfortable that he can be a good tandem guy to a youngster.

Even is Husso is rocking a .930 in the AHL, he needs to stay there and play games. He's never played 50 games in a season and his career high is 41. He needs to handle a starter's load in the AHL, not come up here to be a backup. Since last year was essentially a throwaway, he needs to be on the ice as much as possible. Having him backup in the NHL is not even close to the best thing for his development.
 

MissouriMook

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I feel pretty good that Binny will be at least an adequate starter. He has a few mechanical issues that concern me, but nothing so egregious that I think it causes his whole game to fall apart. I really hate the way he holds his glove and lifts his left pad up to compensate and SJ/Boston figured it out and started waiting for him to lift the leg before sliding it under him. But that's a correctable thing that shouldn't be such a large adjustment that it causes a domino effect.

He's the guy to start the season and I expect him to remain the guy throughout the season. I think Allen is good enough through 25-30 starts that his contract is easy to move next summer when it is just 1 year remaining and teams feel comfortable that he can be a good tandem guy to a youngster.

Even if Husso is rocking a .930 in the AHL, he needs to stay there and play games. He's never played 50 games in a season and his career high is 41. He needs to handle a starter's load in the AHL, not come up here to be a backup. Since last year was essentially a throwaway, he needs to be on the ice as much as possible. Having him backup in the NHL is not even close to the best thing for his development.
I think the bolded is situationally dependent. If Allen has been playing well enough to generate interest, I think Army has to evaluate the situation under multiple variables.

1. Can Husso handle a backup role at the NHL level yet?
2. Can I get more for Allen now (at the TDL) than I could if I waited until the offseason?
3. If the price for Allen now (at the TDL) is roughly what I expected in the offseason, can I do anything useful with the newly freed cap space?
4. Would I trust Husso as much as (or more than) Allen to be the guy in the playoffs if something happened to Binnington?

These things (and probably several others I hadn't thought of) will be the filter through which Army will evaluate offers in FEB 2020 to decide if moving Allen is worth it during the season or if it would be better to hold onto him and wait until the draft.
 

Ted Hoffman

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Jake Allen posted a .903 during the stretch you cherry picked, which put him right in the middle of the pack for backups during that time period. So again, this assertion that he was "**** on a stick" is just not based in the reality of what an NHL backup looks like. No matter what year long sample size you want to choose, he has been at worst a middle of the road backup. Other year-long samples show him as a top end backup and all of the samples when he was playing an actual backup/1B role show him as a top-end backup. He is not good enough to be a starter. You are still the only person making references to him getting the net back as #1. Literally no one else is clamoring for that or believes it is a possibility barring injury or complete collapse by Binny (neither of which is likely).

No one is disputing that when he is bad, he is really bad. Welcome to the backup goalie market. That's the reason why most backups are backups. There are easily 100 goalies in North America whose best is good enough to be an NHL starter. What separates most of them from actual starting goalies are the lows and the ability to bring the A game more than the D game. Your claim that there are a wealth of cheap backups who will be consistent and post good overall numbers is not supported by reality.

I think you are vastly underestimating or completely ignoring just how many NHL teams watch their backup play like Allen's worst 6-8 week stretches for an entire season.
OK, Brian. Clearly, you're going to argue this endlessly instead of conceding we've got differing opinions and I don't give a shit enough to keep this up. You're right, you win.
 

Ted Hoffman

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Who is that, in terms of a realistic move that could happen for this coming season?
Wasn't that what we were discussing way back? I'm saying look at other teams that have depth in net and aren't going to be able to carry all those guys. I'm not saying "find the perfect backup" and anyone who wants to argue "I'll only do it if we're getting someone back who's clearly better [based on whatever subjective criteria I choose to use to evaluate]" isn't going to find that person, which leaves us stuck with Allen. I'm saying "find someone who's capable, who we can live with, who may not be the next Brian Elliott or Carter Hutton but also won't be the next Chad Johnson or Tom Barasso or Jim Hrivnak."
 

Stupendous Yappi

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Wasn't that what we were discussing way back? I'm saying look at other teams that have depth in net and aren't going to be able to carry all those guys. I'm not saying "find the perfect backup" and anyone who wants to argue "I'll only do it if we're getting someone back who's clearly better [based on whatever subjective criteria I choose to use to evaluate]" isn't going to find that person, which leaves us stuck with Allen. I'm saying "find someone who's capable, who we can live with, who may not be the next Brian Elliott or Carter Hutton but also won't be the next Chad Johnson or Tom Barasso or Jim Hrivnak."
You keep backing up to talking about this player conceptually. But do you have any realistic moves that target a specific player? The sentiment on the site seems to be to make a move in a year, after Binnington proves his stability. So you’re suggesting doing it NOW, for this season. It seems like that should translate into a specific player or two that could be available. If we can’t produce that hypothetical deal among us, it’s probably nonexistant.
 
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ChicagoBlues

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You keep backing up to talking about this player conceptually. But do you have any realistic moves that target a specific player? The sentiment on the site seems to be to make a move in a year, after Binnington proves his stability. So you’re suggesting doing it NOW, for this season. It seems like that should translate into a specific player or two that could be available. If we can’t produce that hypothetical deal among us, it’s probably nonexistant.

I think it’s more of a hide and seek or hot/cold game.
 

GoldenSeal

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Who is that, in terms of a realistic move that could happen for this coming season?

I don’t disagree with most of what you said above, but I still don’t see how they could move Allen now without downgrading the back-up spot in order to save cap space they won’t use this year. Or if they do, it would be at the trade deadline, and philosophically I don’t think big acquisitions tend to pan out in the playoffs. So I just don’t see the point in worrying about Allen this season. If things go along the trajectory they have been, Allen will be a competent to very good back-up, Binnington will solidify himself as an above average (probably more likely ‘average’) starter, and the Blues will move Allen in the off-season for his final year.

I don’t see the point in arguing about Allen’s role or how much he’s overpaid during this coming season, if that’s how it plays out. But if Binnington falters badly and Allen DOES end up functioning as the starter again at some point this season, things could get interesting. Well, it’s only very interesting if Allen plays well.

I don’t think anyone in St Louis is ever going to trust Allen as a long term starter again. A lot depends on Husso’s development, too, as to what is realistic next year.

To my mind, the Blues only have trouble with how to handle Allen if Binnington lays a big egg this year. Otherwise he’s here for at most this one more season, maybe even moved before season’s end if Binnington and Husso look solid enough to be the tandem, and another team has a big enough need to come calling. I have more questions about Husso right now than about Allen.

If you had to pick today between Binnington/Allen or Binnington/Husso, it’s obvious that the 2nd option is inferior. Yeah, it’s cheaper, but the Blues want to contend again this year. The point at which that question starts to look like a draw, that’s when I’d seriously entertain shipping out Allen. Because (back to my original question), I don’t see a realistic deal today that doesn’t end up with the Blues having an inferior back-up in return.

We called up Binnington because we felt anything was better than Allen and we wound up with the Cup. Roll Binnington/Husso and send Jake on his way.
 

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We called up Binnington because we felt anything was better than Allen and we wound up with the Cup. Roll Binnington/Husso and send Jake on his way.
Those Allen fanboys will be so pissed IF Husso would become superior. Even than Binnington bringed to St . Louis franchise first Stanley Cup some of assumed Binny didnt deserve over Allen's contract money not consistency enough, but Allen's contract was fine when it handed to him on goldenplate while every back-up beat him.
 
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GoldenSeal

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Those Allen fanboys will be so pissed IF Husso would become superior. Even than Binnington bringed to St . Louis franchise first Stanley Cup some of assumed Binny didnt deserve over Allen's contract money not consistency enough, but Allen's contract was fine when it handed to him on goldenplate while every back-up beat him.

Our netminding depth is really damn good downstairs, why waste our time on Allen? It's not like we're going to ask or need Husso to be a Starter, so we're looking at backup as best, which would be the best thing at this point for his development. Allen's contract was one of the two dumbest contracts I saw handed out, sight unseen (the other was to Mike Yeo).

And while I applaud Army's efforts because he truly was the catalyst that brought together the group to win the Cup, Allen just simply needs to go. He's a backup making a starter's salary with serious mental toughness issues and that's never going to fly for this squad. For those who love the guy, face facts: He was never bringing us a Cup and we never stood a chance with him in goal. The minute Binnington touched ice, the entire team chemistry and fortunes changed almost overnight.
 
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STL fan in MN

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Can either of you two even identify a single person on here who loves Allen or is an Allen fanboy? You’re attacking straw men.

I think it’s pretty well established and agreed upon that Allen isn’t good enough to be an NHL starter and is overpaid as a backup. I haven’t seen anyone actually praise Allen and believe in him as a starter in years.
 

Stupendous Yappi

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Our netminding depth is really damn good downstairs, why waste our time on Allen? It's not like we're going to ask or need Husso to be a Starter, so we're looking at backup as best, which would be the best thing at this point for his development. Allen's contract was one of the two dumbest contracts I saw handed out, sight unseen (the other was to Mike Yeo).

And while I applaud Army's efforts because he truly was the catalyst that brought together the group to win the Cup, Allen just simply needs to go. He's a backup making a starter's salary with serious mental toughness issues and that's never going to fly for this squad. For those who love the guy, face facts: He was never bringing us a Cup and we never stood a chance with him in goal. The minute Binnington touched ice, the entire team chemistry and fortunes changed almost overnight.
I strongly disagree that being a backup is best for Husso’s development. He needs work. The best possible season for him is to dominate as the starter in San Antonio all year, with a heavy work load.
 

TK 421

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I strongly disagree that being a backup is best for Husso’s development. He needs work. The best possible season for him is to dominate as the starter in San Antonio all year, with a heavy work load.

Agree with you here, the best development route for Husso is showing he can seize an AHL starters job. I don't see any evidence from last season that indicates he's ready to be an NHL back up, quite the contrary actually. Furthermore that's a risky tandem. Personally I want more data on Binny over a larger sample size and keeping Jake this season accomplishes that. People are REALLY under selling what Allen is capable of as a back up based on his work as a starter and over selling what a 2 mil back up would normally provide for the same stretch of games we'd be asking Allen to play.
 

GoldenSeal

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Agree with you here, the best development route for Husso is showing he can seize an AHL starters job. I don't see any evidence from last season that indicates he's ready to be an NHL back up, quite the contrary actually. Furthermore that's a risky tandem. Personally I want more data on Binny over a larger sample size and keeping Jake this season accomplishes that. People are REALLY under selling what Allen is capable of as a back up based on his work as a starter and over selling what a 2 mil back up would normally provide for the same stretch of games we'd be asking Allen to play.

The problem with this analysis is the assumption that Jake is a legit "backup plan" if Binny goes down and he ain't on any day of the week. Leaving Husso down there to marinate a bit more is totally fine, having Allen on this team is absolutely not.
 

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