Bender
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- Sep 25, 2002
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Joe Sakic - Record as Colorado Avalanche GM - Part II (Updates in First Post)
- Thread starter Foppa2118
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- Dec 4, 2002
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Just because a draft is 'weak', doesn't mean a team can't find good players. I realize that outside of Landeskog, Colorado whiffed in 2011 (and 2008, and 2010, and 2012, and 2014), but some teams did fairly well in the 2011 draft. These are all current consistently-playing NHL players, of varying importance, picked in the 2011 draft by specific teams:
Anaheim: Rakell, Gibson, Karlssson, Cramarossa, Manson.
Calgary: Baertschi, Granlund, Gaudreau
Chicago: Danault, Saad, Shaw
Ottawa: Zibanejad, Prince, Pageau, Dzingel
Tampa: Namestnikov, Kucherov, Nesterov, Palat
There's not a top 10 overall pick amongst the bunch (which is why I left out Edmonton and Florida, who both also did well in the 2011 draft, but with at least one really high top 10 pick). I get that some of these players are 4th line/3rd pairing types, but so what? Teams can find good players in weak drafts, even when they don't have a top 10 pick.
Edit: One mistake in there - Zibanejad was picked at #6 overall.
- Dec 4, 2002
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Lol...yeah right...Sherman.
I don't think the Avalanche have had a quality GM (or a GM performing well, if you prefer) since prior to the 2004 player lockout.
tigervixxxen
Optimism=Delusional
I'm not convinced Sherman ever had any type of authority. The eras as far as I'm concerned are PL and not PL
bohlmeister
...................
- May 18, 2007
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It is my belief that Eric Lacroix was the leading man during that tenure. Pure speculation on my part. But I think Sherman was the GM in name, and EL was pulling the strings behind the scenes.
Foppa2118
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- Oct 3, 2003
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My hunch is that Sherman's impact was similarly to Sakic's. I think EL was the main guy, along with Michel Goulet, and Brad Smith presenting Sherman with ideas, and he mostly sided with what they wanted to do. It was "his call" but he sided with them due to them being much more experienced.
I think it's pretty similar with Sakic. I think Roy was the main guy, along with Billington, and Smith presenting Sakic with ideas and he mostly sided with them. After a couple seasons he brought in MacFarland to be the main guy, along with Billington and Smith. It's "Sakic's call" but he sided with Roy and MacFarland due to them being more experienced.
I don't think either operation has really been Joe's vision or Sherman's vision, or them directing how the organization proceeded, the way many GM's operate.
tigervixxxen
Optimism=Delusional
In general that's how I see it too. Sakic might have final say but he's getting strong input from a lot of areas. In a way that's what you want for someone at the top because they don't have the time or scope to get into the minutae of each particular department. But I'm not entirely sure he has control or that he has final say in the regard of holding these different guys accountable.
TheForsbergShow
Registered User
If that is the case, they better all be on the same page and want the same things and vision for the team.
We started seeing conflictions with Roy here and it caused a mix of both worlds that turned into this disaster. Our gm needs to be open to outside input but at the end of the day he needs to go with what he thinks is best and stick to it.
We started seeing conflictions with Roy here and it caused a mix of both worlds that turned into this disaster. Our gm needs to be open to outside input but at the end of the day he needs to go with what he thinks is best and stick to it.
Oh I think Sherman had authority. Not much, but I think he had it. I'm positive the whole "let's sign everyone to three-year deals!" was all him, something that continued even after Sakic and Roy took over and he was shoved into an "advisory" role.
I also think a lot of the bargain bin signings (most of which did not pan out) he made were his doing as well.
It's his biggest move that I have to wonder about. Was it his idea to trade a 1st rounder in the midst of a rebuild for Semyon Varlamov? That's the one move that doesn't seem consistent with the rest.
I also think a lot of the bargain bin signings (most of which did not pan out) he made were his doing as well.
It's his biggest move that I have to wonder about. Was it his idea to trade a 1st rounder in the midst of a rebuild for Semyon Varlamov? That's the one move that doesn't seem consistent with the rest.
Bender
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- Sep 25, 2002
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Very much this.
When Francois Giguere was in charge, it was actually him and PL admitted that he stayed away for the most part.
So the eras are :
PL - 1995 to 2006
F.Giggy - 2006 to 2009
PL+EL - 2009 to 2013
JS+PR - 2013 to 2016
JS - 2016-now
Probably...with Eric running things by Pierre to make sure it was a good idea.
Yeah...no. People really need to face facts: Greg Sherman was a businessman in charge of running the Pepsi Center. He was a smart guy for sure but he wasn't a 'hockey man' by any means. Just because they gave him a title and let him talk to the media it certainly doesn't mean that anything hockey related was 'his call'. All of the evidence points to the fact that he was GM in name only. From the fact that he wasn't qualified for the position to begin with to the fact that he hasn't worked in the NHL since that time. (Those guys tend to bounce back elsewhere...like Francois Giguere and even Don Waddell and Jay Feaster)
tigervixxxen
Optimism=Delusional
This is why I really question Sakic's scope of authority and who really is in charge in that FO. I don't think he's a total figurehead but I don't think he's the unequivocal leader and driving the bus of this entire enterprise either.
- Feb 24, 2012
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I'd say the Roy divide is really unclear where it faded. Sometime after the summer of 2015, but somewhere before the summer of 2016. But overall that is how I see it.
I don't think Sakic is alone in his decisions, but by all accounts I've heard, he has the final say and has signed off on all deals since the summer of 2013. Not entirely unusual for a front office structure to have the GM mostly signing off, but MacFarland's (and previously Roy's) influence is probably higher than most in these positions.
tigervixxxen
Optimism=Delusional
Foppa2118
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This isn't evidence. There was never any evidence of what he did or didn't do. It was all speculation. Not facts.
IMO he wasn't the idea man, he was the guy in the traditional presidents role, signing off on moves, and also negotiating with other teams GM's. EL I think was mainly in what we think of as the GM role. He was the main idea man and came up with the plans. Same I think goes for Sakic and Roy/MacFarland, though at this point I think Sakic is taking charge more since it's a mess.
Nalens Oga
Registered User
I don't go by speculation here as much. I'm sure the other guys play a role but I blame the GM in charge (not trying to defend the other guys they can gtfo too).
The sad thing is that The Accountant is no worse a GM than Sakic. His drafting sucked but I always blame the scouts for that (Pracey). He did manage to make a move for a top pairing dman (EJ) and TWO starting goalie (he got Anderson and then later got Varly for a bit of an overpayment but still he got the guy). He was probably as bad if not worse than Sakic at talent evaluation and whatnot but I can't think of a specific thing that Sakic has done better lol. Maybe waiver-wire picks? I dunno it's a bottom of the barrel contest.
The sad thing is that The Accountant is no worse a GM than Sakic. His drafting sucked but I always blame the scouts for that (Pracey). He did manage to make a move for a top pairing dman (EJ) and TWO starting goalie (he got Anderson and then later got Varly for a bit of an overpayment but still he got the guy). He was probably as bad if not worse than Sakic at talent evaluation and whatnot but I can't think of a specific thing that Sakic has done better lol. Maybe waiver-wire picks? I dunno it's a bottom of the barrel contest.
Foppberg
Registered User
Yep, and that's the crux of the issue. The game has passed them and left them for dead, we bemoaned PL, but just getting rid of him we didn't abolish all of his cronies. The organization is rotten top to bottom and is in a dire need of complete house cleaning, similar to what the Leafs did. I don't like them or Lou but they are making steps in the right direction.
Foppa2118
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Honestly, I'd take Sherman over Sakic
Sherm's track record was much better than Joe's. He aggressively made moves to help the team much more so than Sakic. Joe's only standout move was the ROR trade which he was forced into essentially.
Sherm moved out a fading Ryan Smyth for Quincey as his first move to spark the rebuild. He didn't have to do that, and it was fairly unexpected.
He swapped Wolski for Mueller which looked to be a great move until Rob Blake decided to smash his head into the glass.
Traded a 4th for Winnik which was a great role player pick up. Unfortunately Winnik always negotiates his way out of town.
Moved Hannan for Flash which was a good move and gave some chemistry to Duchene's line.
Traded Quincey for Downie which looked like a great move for a little while before he got injured.
McGinn was a great pick up for a 7th and Winnik and Gali who's contracts were expiring. Sgarbossa also helped the AHL team, and filled in as a callup.
The EJ trade was ballsy and turned out great.
Same with the Varly trade. Ballsy but really helped the team. Finally brought in a legit #1 to stabilize the team, and came on a decent contract.
Sherm's eff ups were with cheap stop gap UFA's, and not improving the defense enough. The same old story for this organization.
Also effed up by splitting negotiating duties with EL, who screwed up the ROR talks the first go around.
Foppa2118
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That's because his son played a big part in the team, and had similar philosophies. He obviously consulted with his dad probably, but there was never any evidence to suggest PL was a legit puppet master like the conspiracy theorists thought.
Foppberg
Registered User
If those moves were PL, I wouldn't hate him coming back. As long as he kept his hands off our top prospects.
I don't think PL was THAT heavily involved. Did he have a say and kinda set the culture? Yeah. But I don't think for a moment he was a day-to-day operations kind of guy. I think if anyone was pulling Sherman's strings, it was Eric Lacroix.
- Dec 4, 2002
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IMO, the biggest example of an Avs GM not making his own decision and instead defaulting to the absurd nepotism that has plagued the franchise for over a decade, was when FG (re)hired Tony Granato in 2008. That was so obviously not the best hire available at the time, but it was touted by Avs management as a so very obvious choice.
That moment was the only other time (besides last week) that I considered divorcing the Avalanche. After that miserable season, they (allegedly) went into a full rebuild, so I stuck it out. After such a dreadful failure, I was convinced they'd do a proper rebuild and finally ditch the nepotism.
I really was convinced....
Metallo
NWOBHM forever \m/
The mere fact that we are debating who is/was really in charge highlights the fact that we lack/lacked strong leadership.
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