Joe Sakic - Record as Colorado Avalanche GM - Part II (Updates in First Post)

[Foppa2118]

Just a "little luck" Foppa?

In my opinion, Joe was handed a huge life-saver in the form of idiot GM Pierre Dorion. I like the return Joe got for Duchene (duh), and in hindsight we can say his patience won-out, but I do believe there's nothing wrong with also acknowledging that there was a huge amount of luck for him, in that Dorion was so infatuated with Duchene that he helped orchestrate a 3-team deal that got Sakic his asking price.


Again--love the trade (mainly because it got Duchene the hell out of here), but I think Joe had more than a "little luck" (and I suspect from reading your post that you do as well--that you're just being a little flip about it for the sake of having fun)

Yeah I definitely agree. I was mostly referring to the draft pick, but I agree also that they lucked out with Dorion and Melnyk being so desperate. I would argue though, that this is basically what Sakic was waiting for. What any GM in that position is waiting for. A GM to get desperate and cave to their asking price.

Even with a mid round pick instead of a top 4 pick, I think the return ended up being pretty good value. Though I obviously would have preferred a deal centered around Chabot since he'll likely be the better defenseman.

 

[Hasbro]

Well, every successful team gets a little lucky. Pierre Lacroix's greatest-ever trade never happens if 1) The Nordiques stay in Quebec City, 2) The Habs were run by a weak and incompetent GM who 3) let a megalomaniac (who for some odd reason still gets airtime on Montreal sports radio) run the greatest goalie in franchise (and some say league) history outta town.

And exhibits A-QQ Sam Pollock’s trade history.

 

[MarkT]

Nah. This isn't NHL19, you can't just add secondary & tertiary pieces to close the gap in bluechippers...if you believe that there will be a significant one.

I've never played NHL 19 or any of the modern NHL games.

What I do believe is that a goal is a goal whether it was produced by a blue chipper or not, and the same goes for goals prevented, shot generation offensive zone time, ect..

So I don't see how "secondary & tertiary" pieces don't close the gap. If I'm wrong, please explain why rather than just stating it.

 

[cgf]

I've never played NHL 19 or any of the modern NHL games.

What I do believe is that a goal is a goal whether it was produced by a blue chipper or not, and the same goes for goals prevented, shot generation offensive zone time, ect..

So I don't see how "secondary & tertiary" pieces don't close the gap. If I'm wrong, please explain why rather than just stating it.

Because the more pieces you add to a package the lower the odds of all of them making it and all of them cracking your roster & contributing...especially for teams that don't suck. Also secondary & tertiary pieces don't often have significant value because they can be acquired cheaply elsewise; without requiring bluechip pieces be involved.

A goal is a goal but one 40-goal scorer is a lot more valuable than eight 5-goal scorers, ya know?

 

[forsbergavs32]

Have to give Sakic some praise. The Avs rebuild has ended and the team is poised to become one of the best teams in the league. The last few seasons have been really impressive, lets hope that continues.

Sakic sucked tbh when Roy was around but managed to turn it around in a big way. Thank god he did as he was not getting fired even if the Avs looked awful right now.

I knew Sakic would get better, he was brand new and it took him a couple years to learn on the job. But I feel like the turning point for Joe was when he started taking Roy out of the decisions some right before he quit. I think a lot of it had to do with Roy being in his ear and then Sakic decided to start building the right way. I'm very interested to see how he handles this offseason.

 

[Foppa2118]

Sakic had a look on his face like his whole off season plans just changed when they announced the Avs get the #4 pick.

 

[cgf]

Sakic had a look on his face like his whole off season plans just changed when they announced the Avs get the #4 pick.

That's harsh. I'm one of his biggest critics, but even I'm sure that Joe wasn't banking his entire offseason on a 35% chance at one of two specific 18-year-olds.

 

[Foppa2118]

That's harsh. I'm one of his biggest critics, but even I'm sure that Joe wasn't banking his entire offseason on a 35% chance at one of two specific 18-year-olds.

Wasn't meant as a criticism. I don't think he was banking on anything but I think he really wanted Hughes or Kakko on the second line next year.

Now he's got to overpay in UFA. For someone that's always stoic, he literally bit his lip when they announced the Avs 4th.

 

[expatriatedtexan]

Naw...Sakic had a look on his face like he already knew the outcome.

 

[Pokecheque]

Naw...Sakic had a look on his face like he already knew the outcome.

So did Shero.

 

[MarkT]

Because the more pieces you add to a package the lower the odds of all of them making it and all of them cracking your roster & contributing...especially for teams that don't suck. Also secondary & tertiary pieces don't often have significant value because they can be acquired cheaply elsewise; without requiring bluechip pieces be involved.

A goal is a goal but one 40-goal scorer is a lot more valuable than eight 5-goal scorers, ya know?

Sorry for the 10 days later reply.

Yes you can't just to simple addition and subtractions. one 40 goal scorer is more valuable that eight 5 goal scorers. Yes. How about one 40 goal scorer vs one 20 goal scorer, two 15 goal scorers, two guys who play great defensively, and a backup goalie. How do you do the math on that one? (it's just a random example).

Basically my point is that you can't just look at a trade and say of well this team got the best player and therefore they got the best out of the trade. And I'm not claiming that every guy in a trade is guaranteed to pan out. Which is why you don't trade a 40 goal scorer for eight 5 goal scorers - instead you trade him for a consistent 20 goal scorer, a 10 goal scorer, and two guys who could both potentially develop into 40 goal scorers. Then based on the luck of the draw and your development system, you stand a good chance of ending up ahead in the deal.

And I'm hugely oversimplifying it by talking about goal scorers, as there's obviously more to the game that just scoring goals.

 

[cgf]

Sorry for the 10 days later reply.

Yes you can't just to simple addition and subtractions. one 40 goal scorer is more valuable that eight 5 goal scorers. Yes. How about one 40 goal scorer vs one 20 goal scorer, two 15 goal scorers, two guys who play great defensively, and a backup goalie. How do you do the math on that one? (it's just a random example).

Basically my point is that you can't just look at a trade and say of well this team got the best player and therefore they got the best out of the trade. And I'm not claiming that every guy in a trade is guaranteed to pan out. Which is why you don't trade a 40 goal scorer for eight 5 goal scorers - instead you trade him for a consistent 20 goal scorer, a 10 goal scorer, and two guys who could both potentially develop into 40 goal scorers. Then based on the luck of the draw and your development system, you stand a good chance of ending up ahead in the deal.

And I'm hugely oversimplifying it by talking about goal scorers, as there's obviously more to the game that just scoring goals.

No worries, what I'd say is that you're right that it's not just about who got the best player, but it's also not about every single piece in a package. It's about the pieces that really move the needle to any significant degree, bottom 6ers generally don't, top 4 blueliners usually do, etc.

And even though I like both Kam and Bowers, they don't move the needle significantly when we're discussing the Chabot, Zibanejad, Girard & Hughes' of the world. As you can find guys to fill Kam & Bowers' potential roles without needing to use a premium asset, but you can't get a Chabot without one.

 

[MarkT]

No worries, what I'd say is that you're right that it's not just about who got the best player, but it's also not about every single piece in a package. It's about the pieces that really move the needle to any significant degree, bottom 6ers generally don't, top 4 blueliners usually do, etc.

And even though I like both Kam and Bowers, they don't move the needle significantly when we're discussing the Chabot, Zibanejad, Girard & Hughes' of the world. As you can find guys to fill Kam & Bowers' potential roles without needing to use a premium asset, but you can't get a Chabot without one.

But here's the thing: With guys like Kam and Bowers, yes they are probably bottom 6ers, but either of them might end up being a top 6 player or even better. Yes it's not likely, but stranger things have happened.

Another thing I didn't mention is that even a 40 goal player might end up being useless when he moves to a new team and can't produce like he used to. Nothing in hockey is guaranteed as I know you know.

I do agree that needle moving players are the most important thing, but even though there are other ways to get them, guys like Bowers and Kam don't grow on trees and are rarely available for free at their age - they have value, and thus they add that value into any trade they're involved in.

In any case, I think he can pretty much end this argument, because I really respect your knowledge of hockey, and I don't see a real way to come to a conclusion here. Plus since it's about something long past, it doesn't really matter.

 

[Sea Eagles]

Joe Sakic. Take a bow, sir.
Whatever happens from here, we improved this season already.

You've achieved what we haven't in 11 years. Let NO-ONE fault you or your moves.

 

[The Merchant]

Best GM in the league.

 

[Spleenless Wonder21]

Sakic has to have a raging mental/ego boner right now. He stayed his course, which is starting to pay off. Playoffs consecutive seasons, series win, Makar in the fold, 4th OA plus Avs 1st round pick in his pocket, $ to blow in FA, so on.

 

[Makar to MacK]

He has some major questions about Barrie and Rants though coming up so that will take a big chunk of his available cap space to blow imo.

 

[cgf]

Sakic has to have a raging mental/ego ***** right now. He stayed his course, which is starting to pay off. Playoffs consecutive seasons, series win, Makar in the fold, 4th OA plus Avs 1st round pick in his pocket, $ to blow in FA, so on.

This better not convince Joe that he can sit on his hands if/when Panarin won't sign with us...

He has some major questions about Barrie and Rants though coming up so that will take a big chunk of his available cap space to blow imo.

We'll have over 30M to spend, those two won't take up much more than half of our capspace, at worst.

 

[Spleenless Wonder21]

He has some major questions about Barrie and Rants though coming up so that will take a big chunk of his available cap space to blow imo.

To be sure, while he needs to be smart in all of those dealings, as space will get tight/tighter quick.

 

[Spleenless Wonder21]

This better not convince Joe that he can sit on his hands if/when Panarin won't sign with us...


We'll have over 30M to spend, those two won't take up much more than half of our capspace.

All fair & accurate points.

 

[Foppa2118]

This better not convince Joe that he can sit on his hands if/when Panarin won't sign with us...


We'll have over 30M to spend, those two won't take up much more than half of our capspace, at worst.

Joe would have to be a complete moron to think this run makes it ok to sit on his hands. If we can all still see the need for another top 6 scoring C/W, to go with their #4 pick, and maybe a 3rd line gritty scoring winger if they can, then so can Joe.

The question is how much is he willing to spend, and if the cost is too high, who does he target in trade? A lot will depend on if they take Byram or a forward at the draft. A forward seems the likely bet, but they may view Byram that much higher than the forwards left at #4. Hard to tell.

If they take a forward they're high on, then they don't have to aggressively bring in the best available forward. They may settle for a second their guy. Even if the prospect is a year or two away.

If they take a D though, then you have to think they'll go after a big name forward. Maybe even in trade, if that's the case, because they won't have a potential second line scorer waiting in the wings.

 

[cgf]

Joe would have to be a complete moron to think this run makes it ok to sit on his hands. If we can all still see the need for another top 6 scoring C/W, to go with their #4 pick, and maybe a 3rd line gritty scoring winger if they can, then so can Joe.

The question is how much is he willing to spend, and if the cost is too high, who does he target in trade? A lot will depend on if they take Byram or a forward at the draft. A forward seems the likely bet, but they may view Byram that much higher than the forwards left at #4. Hard to tell.

If they take a forward they're high on, then they don't have to aggressively bring in the best available forward. They may settle for a second their guy. Even if the prospect is a year or two away.

If they take a D though, then you have to think they'll go after a big name forward. Maybe even in trade, if that's the case, because they won't have a potential second line scorer waiting in the wings.

We'll know in a matter of months. Just saying I hope Joe isn't feeling himself too hard, lest he pull a last-summer.

 

[Foppa2118]

We'll know in a matter of months. Just saying I hope Joe isn't feeling himself too hard, lest he pull a last-summer.

Yeah, but I still think he stayed patient last summer, because the plan was to evaluate some things internally, see where their draft picks ended up, and bring in some bigger names this summer.

Just a for instance, but if he lost patience and brought in a guy like Neal, that would have been a big mistake, and limited what they could have done this summer.

Staz would have been a good addition on a short term deal, but I'm not sure he signs that contract with the Avs. Especially for the price with the tax savings, and maybe not for the term. Vegas was viewed as closer to a Cup at the time.

Joe might have been looking at it like they could sign Staz for a bigger longer contract. Or they could evaluate Jost this year, then possibly add a Hughes/Kakko/Cozens/Dach at the draft, and go after Hayes/Stone in UFA. Knowing Hayes had them high on his last last time.

Both options have their risks involved, and we still have to wait and see how things play out, but in a couple years we might view it as Joe making the right decision.

 

[cgf]

Yeah, but I still think he stayed patient last summer, because the plan was to evaluate some things internally, see where their draft picks ended up, and bring in some bigger names this summer.

Just a for instance, but if he lost patience and brought in a guy like Neal, that would have been a big mistake, and limited what they could have done this summer.

Staz would have been a good addition on a short term deal, but I'm not sure he signs that contract with the Avs. Especially for the price with the tax savings, and maybe not for the term. Vegas was viewed as closer to a Cup at the time.

We'll find out soon enough if that was his plan or just his MO

 

[Spleenless Wonder21]

Yeah, but I still think he stayed patient last summer, because the plan was to evaluate some things internally, see where their draft picks ended up, and bring in some bigger names this summer.

Just a for instance, but if he lost patience and brought in a guy like Neal, that would have been a big mistake, and limited what they could have done this summer.

Staz would have been a good addition on a short term deal, but I'm not sure he signs that contract with the Avs. Especially for the price with the tax savings, and maybe not for the term. Vegas was viewed as closer to a Cup at the time.

Joe might have been looking at it like they could sign Staz for a bigger longer contract. Or they could evaluate Jost this year, then possibly add a Hughes/Kakko/Cozens/Dach at the draft, and go after Hayes/Stone in UFA. Knowing Hayes had them high on his last last time.

Both options have their risks involved, and we still have to wait and see how things play out, but in a couple years we might view it as Joe making the right decision.

I think Neal would’ve worked better here than in CGY, at least for the current & next season. That said, I was fine that they passed, especially when I learned what the Flames signed him for.