Joe Sakic - Record as Colorado Avalanche GM - Part II (Updates in First Post)

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AvsMakar08

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I think Neal would’ve worked better here than in CGY, at least for the current & next season. That said, I was fine that they passed, especially when I learned what the Flames signed him for.

Maybe if we lure the pot smoker Kevin Hayes to Colorado to play as a 2nd line center could be a good start to signing the biggest UFA available 26 years old 6'5'. Amazing top 2nd line center....wait, did I say this correctly?
 

Sea Eagles

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Sakic has to have a raging mental/ego ***** right now. He stayed his course, which is starting to pay off. Playoffs consecutive seasons, series win, Makar in the fold, 4th OA plus Avs 1st round pick in his pocket, $ to blow in FA, so on.

I remember everyone panicking, demanding this trade, that trade, Dutchy out at any costs early etc etc etc.
Our fanbase is intelligent, passionate and knowledgable. I reckon it would have been hard to actually stay the course.

Love the man as a player, and a GM, and I hate snowblowers.
 
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Spleenless Wonder21

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I remember everyone panicking, demanding this trade, that trade, Dutchy out at any costs early etc etc etc.
Our fanbase is intelligent, passionate and knowledgable. I reckon it would have been hard to actually stay the course.

Love the man as a player, and a GM, and I hate snowblowers.

217f060bd26ba3169e13410be20a025b.jpg


Shoveling snow sucks. :laugh:
 
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cgf

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I remember everyone panicking, demanding this trade, that trade, Dutchy out at any costs early etc etc etc.
Our fanbase is intelligent, passionate and knowledgable. I reckon it would have been hard to actually stay the course.

Love the man as a player, and a GM, and I hate snowblowers.

You say that as though making one of those moves that Joe didn’t couldn’t have worked out even better. I mean, wouldn’t it still be sweet if we Chabot & Zibanejad instead of Girard, the pick, Bowers & Kamenev? Our blueline would be even better and we’d have that high quality 1b C to pair with Mikko that we don’t right now.

Things are good now, but that doesn’t that mean that they couldn’t be even better :dunno:
 

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You say that as though making one of those moves that Joe didn’t couldn’t have worked out even better. I mean, wouldn’t it still be sweet if we Chabot & Zibanejad instead of Girard, the pick, Bowers & Kamenev? Our blueline would be even better and we’d have that high quality 1b C to pair with Mikko that we don’t right now.

Things are good now, but that doesn’t that mean that they couldn’t be even better :dunno:
Would have kept the team mediocre and would not had the draft spot to take Makar.
 

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To be sure, while he needs to be smart in all of those dealings, as space will get tight/tighter quick.
Probably has one year left to weaponize cap space again, which worked out well with Gru.

I like the idea of having something happen with Marleau. Low real dollar cost, might waive to come here, could help with the youngin's for the year and Toronto is really pushing hard for a cup so you might get them to overpay a bit.
 

Sea Eagles

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You say that as though making one of those moves that Joe didn’t couldn’t have worked out even better. I mean, wouldn’t it still be sweet if we Chabot & Zibanejad instead of Girard, the pick, Bowers & Kamenev? Our blueline would be even better and we’d have that high quality 1b C to pair with Mikko that we don’t right now.

Things are good now, but that doesn’t that mean that they couldn’t be even better :dunno:
Who knows mate. Could it have messed with the chemistry our team has now? I look at some loaded teams, who acquired marquee talent (case if rich getting richer) and they then under achieved.

I've always said chemistry on ice AND in the locker room is paramount.

Our boys are playing like brothers. Like family. They are in the trenches with each other to the last. Even Varly looks so supportive of Grub.

Honestly, I have to respectfully disagree mate. We have something very special here, and out future looks even brighter.

What I KNOW, is what we have, and what we have works. Chabot thrown in may make us better, it may make us worse, that's purely speculative.

So I have to say, given the evidence , Sakic is second to none with his decision making. The results are on the board, and no-one can take that from him.

It's just so darned good to be a fan of this amazing club. I personally feel lucky and privaleged.

Lastly, you also don't want to mess too much with what isn't broken. That's my fear. We did that when we traded for Talbot previously. We were riding high, made some trades , and fell off the wagon at that point.

Stick with a winner. And boy, these young (and they are mostly all VERY young) men are VERY much winners mate.
 
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cgf

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Who knows mate. Could it have messed with the chemistry our team has now? I look at some loaded teams, who acquired marquee talent (case if rich getting richer) and they then under achieved.

I've always said chemistry on ice AND in the locker room is paramount.

Our boys are playing like brothers. Like family. They are in the trenches with each other to the last. Even Varly looks so supportive of Grub.

Honestly, I have to respectfully disagree mate. We have something very special here, and out future looks even brighter.

What I KNOW, is what we have, and what we have works. Chabot thrown in may make us better, it may make us worse, that's purely speculative.

So I have to say, given the evidence , Sakic is second to none with his decision making. The results are on the board, and no-one can take that from him.

It's just so darned good to be a fan of this amazing club. I personally feel lucky and privaleged.

Lastly, you also don't want to mess too much with what isn't broken. That's my fear. We did that when we traded for Talbot previously. We were riding high, made some trades , and fell off the wagon at that point.

Stick with a winner. And boy, these young (and they are mostly all VERY young) men are VERY much winners mate.

Chemistry & off- ice camaraderie are so over-rated. The Warriors hate each other & could continue winning titles for as long as they wanted because talent & intelligence trump chemistry. The Hawks had a lot of tension in the lockerroom during their dynasty. I can't tell you how many german World Cup winners hate one another. Hell, I'm sure the golden age avs weren't all buddy-buddy either.

Plus this logic can be used against ever improving the team. Using this logic we shouldn't have played Makar because he could've disrupted chemistry; CBJ shouldn't have added Dutchy & Dzingel; Vegas shouldn't have added Stone; etc.

So I'mma gamble on upgrades, you can bet on chemistry.
 

Sea Eagles

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Chemistry & off- ice camaraderie are so over-rated. The Warriors hate each other & could continue winning titles for as long as they wanted because talent & intelligence trump chemistry. The Hawks had a lot of tension in the lockerroom during their dynasty. I can't tell you how many german World Cup winners hate one another. Hell, I'm sure the golden age avs weren't all buddy-buddy either.

Plus this logic can be used against ever improving the team. Using this logic we shouldn't have played Makar because he could've disrupted chemistry; CBJ shouldn't have added Dutchy & Dzingel; Vegas shouldn't have added Stone; etc.

So I'mma gamble on upgrades, you can bet on chemistry.

Or it could be a case of a little of exhibit A, a little of exhibit B, which is exactly what we are doing.

Sakic is tweeking.

He brought in a very solid Derick Brassard. He acquired Grubauer (AND Orpik remember). The Dutchy trade was huge.

I think Kamenev next season will be our dark horse and bolter for player of the season.

I know you want huge upgrades. But it's paramount we have flexibility in the salary cap. We need to keep succession planning in our mindset (Cole and EJ aren't getting any younger). We have big name players like Varly, Wilson and others coming off contract. Soderberg next season.

It's not as simple as , let's go out and offer Panarin 12M per season. He's an upgrade.

A build is just that. Tweek here and there. Slow progression. Keep it sustainable, but with momentum.

Keep improving.

And that's exactly what we've been doing. Surely this is making you happy, mate? What's not to love right now? The current? Yep. The future? Yep.

I'm happy with the slow, small burn. Keeps things building sustainably. Brassard, Grubauer, Cole, Kerfoot types are the PERFECT changes we need right now.
 
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cgf

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Or it could be a case of a little of exhibit A, a little of exhibit B, which is exactly what we are doing.

Sakic is tweeking.

He brought in a very solid Derick Brassard. He acquired Grubauer (AND Orpik remember). The Dutchy trade was huge.

I think Kamenev next season will be our dark horse and bolter for player of the season.

I know you want huge upgrades. But it's paramount we have flexibility in the salary cap. We need to keep succession planning in our mindset (Cole and EJ aren't getting any younger). We have big name players like Varly, Wilson and others coming off contract. Soderberg next season.

It's not as simple as , let's go out and offer Panarin 12M per season. He's an upgrade.

A build is just that. Tweek here and there. Slow progression. Keep it sustainable, but with momentum.

Keep improving.

And that's exactly what we've been doing. Surely this is making you happy, mate? What's not to love right now? The current? Yep. The future? Yep.

I'm happy with the slow, small burn. Keeps things building sustainably. Brassard, Grubauer, Cole, Kerfoot types are the PERFECT changes we need right now.

But that negates the "don't risk chemistry" argument :huh:
 

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Or it could be a case of a little of exhibit A, a little of exhibit B, which is exactly what we are doing.

Sakic is tweeking.

He brought in a very solid Derick Brassard. He acquired Grubauer (AND Orpik remember). The Dutchy trade was huge.

I think Kamenev next season will be our dark horse and bolter for player of the season.

I know you want huge upgrades. But it's paramount we have flexibility in the salary cap. We need to keep succession planning in our mindset (Cole and EJ aren't getting any younger). We have big name players like Varly, Wilson and others coming off contract. Soderberg next season.

It's not as simple as , let's go out and offer Panarin 12M per season. He's an upgrade.

A build is just that. Tweek here and there. Slow progression. Keep it sustainable, but with momentum.

Keep improving.

And that's exactly what we've been doing. Surely this is making you happy, mate? What's not to love right now? The current? Yep. The future? Yep.

I'm happy with the slow, small burn. Keeps things building sustainably. Brassard, Grubauer, Cole, Kerfoot types are the PERFECT changes we need right now.

Brassard sucks.
 
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Sea Eagles

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But that negates the "don't risk chemistry" argument :huh:
Not really. Small changes versus bringing in a huge player that will be a key player tacticly and will require systems built around them per say.

We have a set system that's working for us right now. You bring in Hayes (for example) that has to completely change.

Might work. Might NOT work. Who knows.

Bringing in a utility like Brassard (who DOESN'T suck btw) can slot in anywhere, in any key moment, or could add value on a 3rd line wing for example.
 

cgf

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Not really. Small changes versus bringing in a huge player that will be a key player tacticly and will require systems built around them per say.

We have a set system that's working for us right now. You bring in Hayes (for example) that has to completely change.

Might work. Might NOT work. Who knows.

Bringing in a utility like Brassard (who DOESN'T suck btw) can slot in anywhere, in any key moment, or could add value on a 3rd line wing for example.

Huh? Hayes is basically Soda with a little more talent & a good two way game. How would adding him change anything tactically?

The bolded is pointless unless you're arguing that no GM should ever do anything.

PS - Brassard most certainly does suck, he sucked for the Pens, he sucked for Florida, and he's sucked for us.
 

Sea Eagles

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Huh? Hayes is basically Soda with a little more talent & a good two way game. How would adding him change anything tactically?

The bolded is pointless unless you're arguing that no GM should ever do anything.

PS - Brassard most certainly does suck, he sucked for the Pens, he sucked for Florida, and he's sucked for us.
Joe's made changes cgf. We just literally blasted Calgary off the ice (the outright top western conference team).

We didn't solely rely on 2-3 players. It was a team effort.

I'm unsure what you what changed, or why you'd want to change it right now?

We are doing well developing players (something everyone criticised about the club previously). Our farm team in the Eagles are in the playoffs.

Personally I'm thinking J T , and Jost are developing well, and could certainly fill that second line role very well. Then you have Sodo, Kerfy (another 2 options), but doesn't the fact these players are all able to.okay up and down the lines add value? It suits the way we play.

Sakic has made quite a lot of moves . He has. Bednar has really put it out there letting Makar play. Shows confidence and strength.

Not sure what else you want mate. Just be happy with where we are at.
 
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cgf

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Joe's made changes cgf. We just literally blasted Calgary off the ice (the outright top western conference team).

We didn't solely rely on 2-3 players. It was a team effort.

I'm unsure what you what changed, or why you'd want to change it right now?

We are doing well developing players (something everyone criticised about the club previously). Our farm team in the Eagles are in the playoffs.

Personally I'm thinking J T , and Jost are developing well, and could certainly fill that second line role very well. Then you have Sodo, Kerfy (another 2 options), but doesn't the fact these players are all able to.okay up and down the lines add value? It suits the way we play.

Sakic has made quite a lot of moves . He has. Bednar has really put it out there letting Makar play. Shows confidence and strength.

Not sure what else you want mate. Just be happy with where we are at.

I want us not to become the next Sharks / Wild / Jets; i.e. up n coming hotshots who blew their windows due to inaction & over-cautiousness. It wasn't that long ago that the Jets drafted Laine & became the new up-n-coming team, but here we sit not 3 years later, with this having been their last best chance at a cup. Toronto just became a contender this year, and this might be their best shot; with it not being long before the cap guts them to. Windows are even harder to keep open than they are to open, and they're hard to open in the first place.

Winning a cup is really f***ing hard & you don't get to contend for a decade in this sport anymore. So if we spend too long "waiting for the youth"...who may never reach the level we'd need them to, to win a cup without significant reinforcements (read 2 top 6ers); as Jimmothy is a premium middle-6er, despite my love for him, and Jost won't ever drive a scoring line as he needs a superior linemate to play off of to thrive offensively...then MacK's next contract, Makar's longterm deal, the Ottawa pick's longterm deal, Landy's raise, Barrie's raise, Girard's raise, Mikko's contract/next-contract if signs a Matthews-deal, etc. will close our window & force a retool faster than you can imagine, and we'd better have won (at least) 1 cup before that happens.


Joe has yet to show that he can proactively address the team's major holes, rather than the bottom of the roster changes that Joe has made a ton of, and he's shown a tendency to predominantly only make low-risk/low-reward moves unless his hand is forced; as it was with ROR & Duchene. And for us to win a cup during this window that's almost open...nevermind more than one...we'll need Joe to show both the capacity for proactivity & enough courage to make the moves this team needs, even if there's a risk. Which he simply hasn't done.

He's done a fine job of getting us thus far, but the guy who builds your foundation isn't always the guy you need to put the finishing touches on a project...and there's a ticking clock that we're racing against to finish this project.


PS - which Avs draftees have we developed into NHLers outside of Barrie & the top 10 picks, exactly? Cause from where I sit there are still massive question marks about our development staff...even if I'm a big fan of Greer & Meloche's...that we have no evidence to suggest are a thing of the past.
 
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flyfysher

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...Sakic has made quite a lot of moves . He has. Bednar has really put it out there letting Makar play. Shows confidence and strength.

Not sure what else you want mate. Just be happy with where we are at.

You can always be certain cgf will let you know.

Really? LOL! Very few of us are Sea Eagles.

JB has done a great job motivating all of the Avs players to play at this high level at the end of the regular season and carry it through into the POs. Players that you might not have viewed favorably have a funny way of sometimes stepping ups to the plate in the odd situation in the POs. That's what you really want as the coach. For your players to be healthy, hungry, focused and playing their best hockey. The Avs are on the right track.
 
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Sea Eagles

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You can always be certain cgf will let you know.

Really? LOL! Very few of us are Sea Eagles.

JB has done a great job motivating all of the Avs players to play at this high level at the end of the regular season and carry it through into the POs. Players that you might not have viewed favorably have a funny way of sometimes stepping ups to the plate in the odd situation in the POs. That's what you really want as the coach. For your players to be healthy, hungry, focused and playing their best hockey. The Avs are on the right track.
Great post mate.
 

cody275

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Chemistry & off- ice camaraderie are so over-rated. The Warriors hate each other & could continue winning titles for as long as they wanted because talent & intelligence trump chemistry. The Hawks had a lot of tension in the lockerroom during their dynasty. I can't tell you how many german World Cup winners hate one another. Hell, I'm sure the golden age avs weren't all buddy-buddy either.

Plus this logic can be used against ever improving the team. Using this logic we shouldn't have played Makar because he could've disrupted chemistry; CBJ shouldn't have added Dutchy & Dzingel; Vegas shouldn't have added Stone; etc.

So I'mma gamble on upgrades, you can bet on chemistry.

Well that's one way to think of it I guess......

First of all, you're looking at this from the most simplistic way possible to try and prove a point. Not really an effective point in any way, unless you also believe that any argument made by cherry picking stats is also effective every time.

Second, a team can have a very poor social cohesion and still be effective in regards to the task cohesion for the group. The two components are separate, and although it is usually preferential to have both it is in no way unreasonable to expect a team/group to have success or failure based on strictly on a lack of one (or in some cases potentially both, especially if other factors come into play). Even ignoring all the other factors that play into the cohesiveness of the group and only looking at those two components, you're out of your mind if you don't think that they have an effect on the capabilities of a group.

Don't get me wrong, some people might take it a bit far (in regards to the information that the majority of us actually have) and overstate the impact (or lack of impact) that a specific acquisition could have on the locker room. However, it is a very real thing that needs to be considered from a team perspective.

Hell even ignoring the research on the impact of the topic directly, you could look at the research on the effect of retaining players. Players tend to be more likely to stay with a team if they have a personal feel of good task cohesion within a team (I don't recall direct research in regards to the same effect with social cohesion but I'd assume it exists to some degree at least).

Finally, in regards to Makar. The Avs had so much information on the kid going all the way back to before the draft, that I'm sure they had a rough estimation in regards to how he would fit into the chemistry of the team. It's not like he's some "oh crap we can add this guy", they've been working towards this for literally years now.

I'd also assume that Columbus and Vegas both did their due diligence in regards to the players they acquired. Teams tend not to just roll the dice anymore and hope things work out with a player. Talent might be the deciding or majority of a decision, but the locker room effect can be a deal breaker.

The Knights are familiar with Stone from his time in the major-junior Western Hockey League with the Brandon Wheat Kings, who are owned by Knights assistant general manager Kelly McCrimmon.

Golden Knights acquire forward Mark Stone from Ottawa

It seems so odd to make statements like that, when there is so much research out there that shows the positive impact that these things have within a group or team setting (as well as the potential negative impact that is possible).


Edit: This isn't arguing one way or the other in regards to the acquisition of the people talked about. Just the comment itself, since it kind of bugged me :laugh:

Personally I'd prefer to look elsewhere than Hayes or Ferland (especially at what I expect they will go for), if possible. Not the biggest fan of either at this point in time. Nor do I think they would fill the roles expected by their upcoming contracts (unless they don't sign the traditional UFA deals). I'm not completely against the players themselves or if the team goes in that direction though. I'd be happy to be proven wrong about them if the team opts to go that way.
 
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MarkT

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I want us not to become the next Sharks

Funny but that's kind of exactly what I want us to become - a team that's always in the playoffs, usually has a legit chance of winning the cup, and who manage to consistently find good players late in the draft.

See, the way I view the playoff is similar to how I view the draft - you need as many kicks at the can as possible, because whether or not you hit it out of the park is in many ways due to luck. You can say San Jose is a failure because they have failed to win the cup, but they also could easily have won several cups if things had worked out slightly differently. If a team loads up for a single run, then suffers a few key injuries, they've wasted their only chance. If they just tweaked rather than loading up, they might actually have a better chance because they'll have multiple chances.

I also don't buy this idea that teams must have a limited window of success just because of the cap. It's clear to me how to achieve sustained success - it's just hard. It's about knowing when to move on from players, and every few years trading away a good player for younger assets who re-stock your talent depth. That means every few years you have to part with a good player, but it also means you maintain the same level of success for as long as you keep making good decisions. Chicago nearly pulled it off, but made several mistakes like failing to address getting a replacement for Crawford and messed up with the Panarin trade (if they had to move him it should have been for multiple young assets, not Saad).
 

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Not sure what else you want mate. Just be happy with where we are at.

Nah, cgf is correct, Eagles. I heard this same dogma in 2014, posted by quite a few people.

I'm very much enjoying the run the team is on, but I am recognizing it as a run. They are playing their best hockey of the season, at the right time of the season, all driven by awesome goaltending. It's not sustainable for an entire season, and likely not sustainable for an entire postseason. We'll see.

While I agree that we as fans should be happy with said run, going into an offseason and only paying attention to a small amount of games - and ignoring two thirds of a season of underwhelming hockey - is not a prudent thing for Sakic to do. Or any of us to do. MacKinnon and Grubauer have been playing in the stratosphere, both of them probably the #1 player in the NHL at their respective positions over the past few weeks. How long is either sustainable? Take both of them down a notch or two, and what happens? If that happens, the team will need lots of production from its depth.

The team still has weaknesses, and those weaknesses need to be addressed in the offseason, if the team is to have a 3-4 year Cup-contending window.
 
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