to be fair, Osgood once was thought to be pretty untouchable, too. then he was waived after we went out and got Hasek. Also, we could just "Luongo" Howard and make him the backup at some point.
Confirmed with Link: Jimmy Howard re-signed for 6 years 5.3m per year
- Thread starter RedWingNation11
- Start date
to be fair, Osgood once was thought to be pretty untouchable, too. then he was waived after we went out and got Hasek. Also, we could just "Luongo" Howard and make him the backup at some point.
SoupNazi
Serenity now. Insanity later.
- Feb 6, 2010
- 26,504
- 15,005
Goalies are generally their own toughest critics so I'm not sure what you're asking.
Heaton
Moderator
If not for Jimmy Howard this team doesn't come close to being in the playoff hunt. He deserves the amount of money, the length kind of sucks though. My hope is Jimmy and Mrazek turn out to be one of the better tandems in the league and eventually Mrazek and Coreau once Jimmy hangs it up.
Crymson
Fire Holland
- May 23, 2010
- 3,667
- 0
Yes, let go of our proven, homegrown goalie, and sign a journeyman---because this strategy has worked out GREAT for the likes of the Bolts---while we wait for our unproven AHL rookie starter to develop.
That sounds more than a little dumb.
"Luongo" is kind of what I want to avoid. Paying a backup 5.3 in a salary cap league doesn't seem ideal to me.
Crymson
Fire Holland
- May 23, 2010
- 3,667
- 0
... a sentiment that is entirely premised on the completely unsure possibility that Mrazek will become a star goaltender.
Vladdy84
L-O-Y-A-L-T-Y
I don't know if this is the right thread to post this into but...
I know I've been pissed as hell at Babcock and Holland and want them gone.
However, if I was a Flyers or Rangers fan, I'd be even more angry.
I know I've been pissed as hell at Babcock and Holland and want them gone.
However, if I was a Flyers or Rangers fan, I'd be even more angry.
kuick
Tatar Sauce
Right.. and if he manages that, what's the issue?
I didn't know having two good goalies was a bad thing. Vancouver seems to be doing alright. The reason they can't trade Luongo isn't because of the cap hit. It's because his deal takes him into AARP age along with a NTC that he'll only waive for 2-3 teams. On the chance Mrazek makes it, AND steals the job from Howard he's far from untradeable.
Another note: many of us were worried that Holland had gone NTC/NMC mad with other recent contracts. Capgeek doesn't show one for Jimmy and I haven't seem it mentioned anywhere else. That's just some good insurance if Mrazek pans out.
It would be unpremised if Mrazek hadn't risen to the challenge at basically every level of play.
I'm going on the assumption that Mrazek, seeing as how he's done well at every level and continues to do well on the Griffins, will continue on that trajectory and develop into a solid goalie. Howard is a solid goalie. Not a star. He's a top10 goalie, but in a league with Brodeur, Luongo, Rinne, Quick, Lehtonen, Andersson, Lundqvist... there's too many other superior goalies to call him a star.
It's not ridiculous to think that after 3-4 more years in the AHL, Mrazek will be ready. He's already played a couple of games up and looked pretty damn good doing it. Especially for a goalie that just started playing in the AHL this season.
It's not "bad." It's just not ideal in a salary cap era. It would be better to sign a decent backup for cheap, use Mrazek for cheap for a few years, and spend the money somewhere else. Like, I don't know. A Datsyuk replacement. Some legit top6 wingers. A top end defenseman that we sorely need.
I think I remember someone doing an analysis of Cup winning goalies and their caphits since 2005. They were pretty cheap generally. Now, afterwards, they started getting paid of course, because they were good. But I'm of the opinion that dumping a ton of money on a goalie is not the way to win a cup. You need that somewhere else. You need proven scoring talent and good depth.
Crymson
Fire Holland
- May 23, 2010
- 3,667
- 0
Howard is every bit as good as Luongo and Lehtonen. Andersson lacks a sufficiently large sample of games to declare him an excellent goalie. Lundquist is elite, yes. Rinne is as well, though he is having an atrocious season. Quick is yet to prove that he is not more than a flash in the pan, and I think that his contract was insane. So of this list, only Lundquist and perhaps Rinne could be called definitively better than Howard.
Brodeur, if you hadn't noticed, is having a disastrous season. His past two weren't so excellent either. This will probably be his last. He is significantly past his prime.
I hope he'll do great. But there's no certainty with these things. More, it would be silly to rush him, and it would be nonsensical to rely on journeyman goaltenders in the meantime.
sarcastro
Registered User
- Jul 28, 2005
- 13,059
- 1
Here's the list of UFA goalies for this summer (although some of them are likely to re-sign before July 1st). Which one do you think is going to take 2 million and change on a short term deal, who will also provide equal or better goaltending than Howard?
Backstrom ($$$)
Nabokov ($$$, 37yo)
Smith ($$$, one fluke year)
Emery (ha)
Garon (I think he's given up 3 goals while I've been typing this...)
Ellis (ow, my groin...)
Joey Mac (ow, my back...)
Theodore (ha)
LaBarbera (ha)
Khabibulin (40yo)
Mason (ha)
I think the Preds are happy with Rinne at 7x$7m.
I think the Rangers are thrilled with Lundqvist at 6x$6.875m.
I think the Habs are satisfied with Price, but they'll be watching him closely in the playoffs this year and he'd better show well or there will be some grumbling about his 6x$6.5m.
I think the Canes are happy with Ward at 6x$6.3m, or they would be if they could scrape together anything that approximates a real defensive unit to help him out even a little.
I don't think the Sabres have had much to complain about with Miller at 5x$6.25m - he was doing quite well for him when they still had a decent team.
I think the Wild are happy with Backstrom at 4x$6m.
I think the Flames are happy with Kipper at 6x$5.83m but they wish he were 26 and not 36. Nothing to be done about that.
Bryz is a disaster in Philly. So was Bobrovsky. Who knows whose fault that is.
Luongo is a complicated mess. Sometimes he looks like he's worth it, and then he gives up 14 goals in 10 minutes. Glad the Wings don't have to worry about that contract.
I think the Pens have mixed emotions about Fleury at 7x$5m. He had those two playoff runs in 08 and 09 and has been total garbage in the playoffs ever since. Some of that is due to the firewagon hockey they've tried to play in the playoffs recently.
That's all of the $5m+ goalies. Some of the teams are thrilled, some are satisfied, a couple are mildly disappointed, and one or two are really unhappy.
I don't think you made the point you thought you were making...
kuick
Tatar Sauce
I can't see what's so attractive about an average/old UFA goalie pool. It's not like we're tight against the cap and need an extra 1-2 million in space to turn the rest of this team around. If we go with a Backstrom / Nabby, what happens if Mrazek isn't ready to take the reigns when they're done? Smith had one good year and doesn't come with a Sean Burke clause in the contract.
Part of Howard's value comes in because can handle the huge workload of games and be relatively consistent. He's also still somewhat young. That's what separates him from Luongo, like sarcasto said.
True, I agree. I just think if/when Mrazek pans out and manages to take the starter job, Howard is tradeable. We wouldn't keep him around if we didn't need him. Note the no NTC/NMC.
Part of Howard's value comes in because can handle the huge workload of games and be relatively consistent. He's also still somewhat young. That's what separates him from Luongo, like sarcasto said.
True, I agree. I just think if/when Mrazek pans out and manages to take the starter job, Howard is tradeable. We wouldn't keep him around if we didn't need him. Note the no NTC/NMC.
Mantha Poodoo
Playoff Beard
- Jun 5, 2008
- 4,109
- 0
Personally, I feel that Howard has the ability to be prime Kipper, or somewhere thereabouts. Rarely going to be top 5 in the goalies, but has the ability to be in the top 10 discussion most years, good for a high number of starts (though thankfully he doesn't need to be ridden as much as Kipper), has an outside chance to challenge for a Vezina one year behind a good team, and outside of a single year, probably won't appear as an NHL all star selection (the award, not the silly game/event). Will probably be in the discussion for his national team for most of his prime. Will have off years like Kipper as well, and like Kipper that will partly be due to unspectacular defense, sadly. When all is said and done I think their career numbers will be similar, but I'm not sure if Howard will have the hardware--still, with a goalie of his ability in today's NHL, all it takes is one good team and a hot year.
Now consider that Kipper made nearly $6m a year over 6 years in a lower cap, had around the same experience as Howard when he signed that deal (though Kipper signed the deal after the Vezina year, his numbers and Howie's are actually very similar in that span), and had a cap lowering tail to his contract, and I don't think anyone considers Kipper's deal a bad one for the Flames. Considering Howie's level of play so far, if he ends up somewhat comparable to Kipper as I suspect (minus perhaps the Vezina/1st all star selection), this is going to be a good deal in the long run for the Wings--especially since it runs out when Howie is only 35. The one thing I'm not sure about is whether Howie is a 70 games a year guy, and really I'd rather not have to find out.
I think it's important to point out that we rather recently had a significant wave of goalies on $5m+ contracts expire, and that a number of quality goalies are going to be coming off RFA deals and seeking paydays in the near future. Going to see a lot of $5m or more likely $6m+ in my opinion.
Now consider that Kipper made nearly $6m a year over 6 years in a lower cap, had around the same experience as Howard when he signed that deal (though Kipper signed the deal after the Vezina year, his numbers and Howie's are actually very similar in that span), and had a cap lowering tail to his contract, and I don't think anyone considers Kipper's deal a bad one for the Flames. Considering Howie's level of play so far, if he ends up somewhat comparable to Kipper as I suspect (minus perhaps the Vezina/1st all star selection), this is going to be a good deal in the long run for the Wings--especially since it runs out when Howie is only 35. The one thing I'm not sure about is whether Howie is a 70 games a year guy, and really I'd rather not have to find out.
I think it's important to point out that we rather recently had a significant wave of goalies on $5m+ contracts expire, and that a number of quality goalies are going to be coming off RFA deals and seeking paydays in the near future. Going to see a lot of $5m or more likely $6m+ in my opinion.
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Squirrel in the Hole
Be the best squirrel in the hole
garry1221
Registered User
At first glance, it seems off. Would have preferred shorter term/same money, or same term/less $. That said, Howie's getting roughly market value. To me, Howie's always seemed to be a goalie in the mould of ozzie. Somewhere between average and good, not elite. Perhaps the $ or term looks scary given the state of the rest of the team.
mindfly
Happy camper!
It's not ideal, but it's workable. I think that since Howard's contract doesn't run for another 20 years, he'll be tradeable.
Backstrom's coming off an injury (again), Nabokov couldn't score a big pay day when he hit the open market while much closer to his prime, and Khabibulin's 40 yo. I think one of them could be signed for $3-4m, for a couple of years, at which point we'd have to either go with Mrazek, have traded for someone, or sign/have signed someone else.
I don't like Howie's deal, but I don't like the alternatives, either.
redwings85
In Ozzie I trust.
Henkka
Registered User
I think he is. The market value. Payed like a TOP10-15 goalie. It's just those days with Jimmy's underpayment that are over now.
We just have to find some underpayment for another positions to build a strong roster. Those years with bargain contracts for goalie position from 2005-to-2013 are over at next season.
Top15 caphits at 2013-14:
1. Rinne, Pekka ........ » G NAS $7,000,000
2. Lundqvist, Henrik .. » G NYR $6,875,000
3. Price, Carey ......... » G MTL $6,500,000
4. Ward, Cam ........... » G CAR $6,300,000
5. Miller, Ryan .......... » G BUF $6,250,000
6. Lehtonen, Kari ...... » G DAL $5,900,000
7. Kiprusoff, Miikka .... » G CGY $5,833,333
8. Quick, Jonathan .... » G LAK $5,800,000
9. Bryzgalov, Ilya ...... » G PHI $5,666,667
10. Luongo, Roberto ... » G VAN $5,333,333
11. Howard, Jimmy . » G DET $5,300,000
12. Fleury, Marc-Andre » G PIT $5,000,000
13. Hiller, Jonas ......... » G ANA $4,500,000
14. Brodeur, Martin .... » G NJD $4,500,000
15. DiPietro, Rick ....... » G NYI $4,500,000
When the years go by, he will drop on the list.
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So right now he is currently the 11th best paid goalie in the league, and will go further down that list after this offseason.
The only reason anyone can be upset at this offer is the years. However, considering Jimmy would have gotten 6 years and more money on the open market, I don't think the 6 years is that big of a deal either. He'll be 35, not 42.
GoAwayDanCleary
DRWCC
- Aug 6, 2012
- 10,752
- 5
DatsyukToZetterberg
Alligator!
The other thing to remember is that Howard signed his deal when the cap will be 64M, a cap % of only 8.3%. I don't have the time to do it but some of these guys had %s of 10-12% when they signed their deals.
Mantha Poodoo
Playoff Beard
- Jun 5, 2008
- 4,109
- 0
So I dunno about you guys, but I take him ahead of everyone below him on that list (as long as we're talking about the quality of Brodeur when and after he signed that contract) and I also take him ahead of several people above him on that list, and equal to several of the others above him.
All of the goalies equal to or better than Howie that are cheaper were either signed as RFAs (such as Rask, Varlamov), or signed as question marks (such as Anderson, Smith). Most of the guys who make less than Howie who are around or above his play level are approaching big paydays, and I'm willing to bet most of them are going to make more than Howie, likely at a longer term as well. This deal is likely to look very good for a 60+ game starter in the long run. Outside of the possibility of a good run behind a good team for a year or two, Howie is never likely to be a Vezina candidate, but $5.3m for 6 years for a top 10-15 starter is going to look very solid within 2 years.
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