Jim Elmer Benning on Sportsnet 650 Today (Jan. 23) around 4 PM

[4Twenty]

The team made the playoffs in JB's first year here...had a 100 point season...the freefall started the year after, and continued for two more years.

It takes valuable assets to get valuable assets.

All of the assets you claimed were depreciating and old, returned reasonably valuable futures.

They used those futures on Vey, Sutter, and Gudbranson. Then signed Loui Eriksson.

 

[xtra]

Hey POM

Repeat this;

“Benning failed in his mandate that he tried to accomplish (push for the playoffs while the twins were here) and as such has proven to be an bad general manager”

That accounts for you points that

a: he took the job to push for the playoffs because he believed they could make for all the twins years

B:his mandate was given

C: he failed at his own plan


Also did the canucks assets that they had (different as they were from the leafs) have no value at all in the league or where they just in a different form than what the leafs had

 

[sting101]

Managers should do what's in the best interest of the franchise. Managers should set a viable plan and then the elder statesmen of the team can decide whether they are part of the plan or they want out. Instead they walked on eggshells around the Sedins and ended up performing like a rebuilding team while trying to compete, with none of the benefits of a rebuilding team.

does it matter what the owner hired you to do?

 

[xtra]

does it matter what the owner hired you to do?

Should it not matter than benning failed at that also?

 

[4Twenty]

does it matter what the owner hired you to do?

Doesn't excuse piss poor execution of what you were hired to do. The Canucks didn't want to bottom out, thankfully we got lucky they're so bad at their job we bottomed out and got a top of the draft talent.

 

[sting101]

I think Benning tried to straddle the fence between rebuild and compete. Traded a bunch of picks for middling guys between the ages of 20-24 with varying levels of upside. A very noncommittal strategy where you’re not going all in and trading for roster players but you’re also not acquiring picks. It wasn’t a great approach. Almost all of the experimental projects acquired didn’t work out and we paid a bunch of seconds and thirds for them. One of my least favourite was Forsling for Clendening.

yes this was a plan that almost unilaterally was considered one that would likely fail and it did.

the minute i heard Lindens name as the President i knew Aquilini had hired his puppet for continuing down the path of chasing 2011 instead of someone who without emotional attachments could have made the right decision to gut it to the foundation in search of core players Horvats age and younger

 

[4Twenty]

yes this was a plan that almost unilaterally was considered one that would likely fail and it did.

Not true, people loved the age gap strategy. People still make excuses for it and blame the previous two regimes drafting for that strategy. Ask DTS, he's read every post on this forum in the past 15 years. He will tell you that acquiring the age gap was the right move and that it was almost unilaterally supported.

 

[sting101]

Should it not matter than benning failed at that also?

Not really.
I wouldnt pass the job up if i had to endure a path i wasnt fully on board with. Do a good job assert yourself over time after you earn your bosses trust then influence the direction

That group was rotting faster than anyone could have prevented. He gave them one last hurrah with a good input of players in 2015.

it was as he started to try and get younger things started to fall apart, the vets were failing, injuries piled up faster than any other teams for 3 yrs and the kids were disasters...Horvat included if you go back to 2016.

 

[Bleach Clean]

Trevor Linden.

Ridiculous strategy but that is what happened. Said he could not look the players in the face and tell them they were rebuilding. As soon as they retired he then wanted to rebuild.

I guess Trevor Linden was here first and foremost to support the Sedins. Building a winning team was secondary.

Happy to see him go.

Was it just Trevor Linden?

When we lack the information to know for sure, why do we assume it's just Linden here? When we do this, we assume that Benning didn't even get a vote. That's an attribution error if ever there was one.

 

[The Optimist]

The team made the playoffs in JB's first year here...had a 100 point season...the freefall started the year after, and continued for two more years.

Which coincides with Benning putting his stamp on the team.

As soon as Benning started making changes the team began to absolutely bottom out.

And Linden is the new Gillis. An easy scapegoat.

 

[4Twenty]

Not really.
I wouldnt pass the job up if i had to endure a path i wasnt fully on board with. Do a good job assert yourself over time after you earn your bosses trust then influence the direction

That group was rotting faster than anyone could have prevented. He gave them one last hurrah with a good input of players in 2015.

it was as he started to try and get younger things started to fall apart, the vets were failing, injuries piled up faster than any other teams for 3 yrs and the kids were disasters...Horvat included if you go back to 2016.

Things started falling apart when they made moves after the first season to improve their playoff outlook. The revisionist history and now promoting the idea he was a lame duck from the get-go is embarrassing to read.

Dan Hamhuis is still better than any defensman they've added. Bonino left and won 2 cups.

The rotting core is BS, the team fell off because Mr Benning's moves to re-tool on the fly fell flat and they moved a pile of futures to do it.

 

[xtra]

Not really.
I wouldnt pass the job up if i had to endure a path i wasnt fully on board with. Do a good job assert yourself over time after you earn your bosses trust then influence the direction

That group was rotting faster than anyone could have prevented. He gave them one last hurrah with a good input of players in 2015.

it was as he started to try and get younger things started to fall apart, the vets were failing, injuries piled up faster than any other teams for 3 yrs and the kids were disasters...Horvat included if you go back to 2016.

Considering benning was highly sought after gm at the time (lolz looking back now) he had a choice of where to go, him signing here is an indication that he believed that he could turn the team around and that his strategy was correct.

Rising candidates for NHL general manager jobs

Now with it shown that he was a sought after candidate with multiple options tell me why he would sign here unless he believed he could turn this team
Around and compete year after year ?

 

[Teflon Jim]

So your saying we were competing the years the twins were here under benning? Shouldn’t benning be fired then for finishing bottom 3 so much?

Or were we rebuilding the same amount of time as Toronto?

This is a billion dollar sports entertainment franchise whose purpose it is to make money and yes it is a business to the owners.
In the lean years they will not say we are rebuilding because ticket sales will go way down and will say we will compete every game as they want your entertainment dollars as simple as that .
Businesses operate that way to maximize their profit all the time and you're all butthurt because they want your dollars so they say the team is competative to go your butt in seats.
Its a business so get over it

 

[xtra]

This is a billion dollar sports entertainment franchise whose purpose it is to make money and yes it is a business to the owners.
In the lean years they will not say we are rebuilding because ticket sales will go way down and will say we will compete every game as they want your entertainment dollars as simple as that .
Businesses operate that way to maximize their profit all the time and you're all ******** because they want your dollars so they say the team is competative to go your butt in seats.
Its a business so get over it

Sorry you deflected the entire post no one is discussing the business of it. There’s a whole different board if you want to talk about that

Were they attempting to compete( regardless of their public comments) the years the twins were here for the playoffs.

Simple yes or no;

If no; how does the signings of beagle,eriksson; trading first round picks like McCann and second rounders fit into that.

If yes; does his results of a bottom 3 finish for those years not mean he should be fired.

 

[4Twenty]

This is a billion dollar sports entertainment franchise whose purpose it is to make money and yes it is a business to the owners.
In the lean years they will not say we are rebuilding because ticket sales will go way down and will say we will compete every game as they want your entertainment dollars as simple as that .
Businesses operate that way to maximize their profit all the time and you're all ******** because they want your dollars so they say the team is competative to go your butt in seats.
Its a business so get over it

They didn't maximize profits though, every franchises value went up, the Vancouver Canucks did not.

It's hilarious that you're trying to use this drivel as an excuse for building terrible teams.

They tried and failed, and luckily got Pettersson out of it.

I remember fearing the re-tool strategy because I was worried the team would never bottom out....thankfully, Jimmy is that bad at building hockey teams.

 

[Bobby Digital]

They were..?...Kessel,26..JVR,25..Bozak,28..Kadri,23..Reilly,20..Phaneuf,29....As opposed to Sedins,33..Vrbata,33..Higgins,31..Burrows,33.,Bieksa,33..Bonino,26....Hamhius,31.

Looks to me like one team has a bunch of prospects coming up ,or in their prime years..and the other has a declining group..In 2014,Horvat was the only decent prospect we had.

When was the last time the Leafs won a playoff round?

A bunch of prospects? The Leafs essentially had Reilly. Thats it. Lol.

When Benning inherited the team he had: Horvat (20), Tanev (25), Edler (28), Garrison (29), Hansen (27). Conveniently leaving them off? Wonder why...

Also Sedins (They weren't being moved), Kesler, Burrows, Bieska, Hamhius.

We had a bunch of players that could have returned good value if Benning decided to move them right away. Shoot just look what we got for Bieska and Burrows after big declining years post 2014. Instead he wasted multiple years trying to be "competitive" and pushing for the playoffs while ultimately constructing a team that did as well as a tanking team, and tanking the value of the older vets that if moved early in the process could have really jump started a rebuild (Anybody with an ounce of foresight could have seen this coming and how much it would affect the team in the long run).

It's honestly pathetic.

The guy has yet to bring in a top 4 damn in 5 years of being a GM. He's traded multiple picks and has had large amount of cap space to find one and couldn't do it.

His FA signings are a disaster. We have 22 mil tied up in Gagner, Erikson, Sutter, Gudbranson, Roussel and Beagle.

How can people possibly think this guy can construct a Stanley Cup winning team? It's mind boggling.

 

[sting101]

Things started falling apart when they made moves after the first season to improve their playoff outlook. The revisionist history and now promoting the idea he was a lame duck from the get-go is embarrassing to read.

Dan Hamhuis is still better than any defensman they've added. Bonino left and won 2 cups.

The rotting core is BS, the team fell off because Mr Benning's moves to re-tool on the fly fell flat and they moved a pile of futures to do it.

Wow

surely you can present a retool using a reasonable decision making using 100% hindsight (hypothetically) that would have seen us compete for the cup then. Because for sure all the best UFAs would have flocked to Vancouver after it was obvious our core had peaked.

Whats embarrassing is people that couldnt reconcile that we were done with the Sedins and the 2011 core as the leaders of this team. Are you saying that Benning wasnt hired with a directive of making the playoffs and competing with the Sedins?

 

[4Twenty]

surely you can present a retool using a reasonable decision making (hypothetically) that would have seen us compete for the cup then. Because for sure all the best UFAs would have flocked to Vancouver after it was obvious our core had peaked

Huh? What does that have to do with what I wrote. Is this what you consider a defense of Jim Benning's piss poor execution? That a random dude posting on the internet has to present a better strategy.

I wouldn't have pushed a retool on the fly strategy to begin with. Tell me when I get to start. Do I still have Kesler or am I stuck with his return?

Give me a framework and I'll make an attempt.

One thing I wouldn't do is trade futures for an age gap. The other thing I wouldn't do is trade young players for older players.

 

[sting101]

Considering benning was highly sought after gm at the time (lolz looking back now) he had a choice of where to go, him signing here is an indication that he believed that he could turn the team around and that his strategy was correct.

Rising candidates for NHL general manager jobs

Now with it shown that he was a sought after candidate with multiple options tell me why he would sign here unless he believed he could turn this team
Around and compete year after year ?

ask Benning i dont care why he chose Vancouver .....maybe because he played here, likes the city, Trevor Linden? What does this prove

 

[sting101]

Huh? What does that have to do with what I wrote. Is this what you consider a defense of Jim Benning's piss poor execution? That a random dude posting on the internet has to present a better strategy.

I wouldn't have pushed a retool on the fly strategy to begin with. Tell me when I get to start. Do I still have Kesler or am I stuck with his return?

Give me a framework and I'll make an attempt.

One thing I wouldn't do is trade futures for an age gap. The other thing I wouldn't do is trade young players for older players.

i would think summer 2015 would be a good start

 

[xtra]

ask Benning i dont care why he chose Vancouver .....maybe because he played here, likes the city, Trevor Linden? What does this prove

Shows that if he was against the plan he had other options

 

[4Twenty]

i would think summer 2015 would be a good start

Well, I'm going to ad-lib and go back to end of reg season 2015 if that's ok with you.

I do not extend Sbisa or Dorsett before the playoffs.

I do not trade Bonino, I see him as a valuable piece in a re-tool, and at his salary he could be moved to a contender for futures at the 16 or 17 deadline, but in the meantime, a perfect stop gap while waiting for Bo.

I still trade Bieksa. I use the 2nd at the draft.

I keep Eddie Lack, moving the sought after Ryan Miller for a better return than Lack received. .
I extend Brad Richardson for similar contract to what he got in Arizona.

I don't keep McCann or Virtanen past 9 games. I probably keep Vrbata with the Twins.

I run a lean bottom 6 using the in house veterans and some of the cheap depth in the org (Gaunce etc).

I don't trade for Granlund, I look to continually target the age gap, but for free on the waiver wire....I pick up Sven Andrighetto instead.

I target undervalued free agents on short term deals. I'm willing to pay higher salaries for the flexibility of not adding term. I can't recall all of the available free agents over those years, but if we could get Vrbata and Miller by offering the best contracts, I'm sure I could've done the same on others.

I don't add at the deadline if I'm in the hunt, but I also look to use the cap space I saved as opportunity to pull in good players with picks, who due to salaries are no longer wanted by their current team.

I don't know how much further to take this, but at worst I finish with the same record or slightly worse (you can only go down 2 places for 3rd worst). Which is kind of the entire point right....they attempted to retool, their own moves fell flat and they ended up as the worst team over the 3 years.

 

[member 290103]

Was it just Trevor Linden?

When we lack the information to know for sure, why do we assume it's just Linden here? When we do this, we assume that Benning didn't even get a vote. That's an attribution error if ever there was one.

Yeah who knows...Benning has been selling Frank the playoffs for five years so odds are he supported or promoted it too

 

[Pastor Of Muppetz]

A bunch of prospects? The Leafs essentially had Reilly. Thats it. Lol.

When Benning inherited the team he had: Horvat (20), Tanev (25), Edler (28), Garrison (29), Hansen (27). Conveniently leaving them off? Wonder why...

Also Sedins (They weren't being moved), Kesler, Burrows, Bieska, Hamhius.

We had a bunch of players that could have returned good value if Benning decided to move them right away. Shoot just look what we got for Bieska and Burrows after big declining years post 2014. Instead he wasted multiple years trying to be "competitive" and pushing for the playoffs while ultimately constructing a team that did as well as a tanking team, and tanking the value of the older vets that if moved early in the process could have really jump started a rebuild (Anybody with an ounce of foresight could have seen this coming and how much it would affect the team in the long run).

It's honestly pathetic.

The guy has yet to bring in a top 4 damn in 5 years of being a GM. He's traded multiple picks and has had large amount of cap space to find one and couldn't do it.

His FA signings are a disaster. We have 22 mil tied up in Gagner, Erikson, Sutter, Gudbranson, Roussel and Beagle.

How can people possibly think this guy can construct a Stanley Cup winning team? It's mind boggling.

Again,they were not going to tear down the roster right away...JB brought in Vrbata.and they had a 100 point year, then proceeded to bottom out..The question is..was this all Jim Bennings doing,or was he following a mandate?

It is true that he hasn't really brought in a top 4 dman...To obtain one in a trade usually comes at a dreadful rate of exchange, and there's another reason they drafted Juolevi..and Hughes.

Gagner,Sutter and Guddy will be off the books within 2 years (unless they are traded)..We have lots of capspace and are not in cap trouble..(and there's nothing to predict we will be in the future).

 

[4Twenty]

Following a mandate is no excuse for the piss poor execution.

What he spent on Gudbranson should've been enough for a top 4 defensman.....again, Benning's target....bad execution.

Hey Jim, go get a top 6 forward for the mandate....ok....Loui Eriksson, 6x6 with terrible contract structure....bad execution.

It's absolutely ridiculous to think ownership was choosing who he wanted Benning to target. These were his targets, it's his job. He targeted bad players, bad players added to aging core = bad team, bottoming out, while at the cap, attempting to be a playoff team.