Jim Elmer Benning on Sportsnet 650 Today (Jan. 23) around 4 PM

[Pastor Of Muppetz]

What's hilarious is that they looked at that 101-point team, which was only lightly tweaked by Benning, bragged openly about how far ahead of their plan they were, and then after that season promptly downgraded Bonino (and in the process Vrbata), downgraded our depth, downgraded our picks, downgraded our D-core, and while doing so actually thought they were making the team better.

What follows is a 3 year culmulative stretch where they were the absolute worst team in the NHL. And along the way they kept trying to make "compete" moves in
Gudbranson/Eriksson.

I thought about going through the exercise of how we could have very simply done a conventional rebuild and be miles ahead of where we are, but then I realized that you and the other usual suspects would be screaming "HINDSIGHT! PICKING THIS PLAYER MEANS WE WOULDNT BE ABLE TO PICK XXX PLAYER!" so honestly, it's not worth the time to make a case in good faith.

For the 100th time..as long as the Sedins were here, there was not going to be a rebuild....

 

[Bleach Clean]

For the 100th time..as long as the Sedins were here, there was not going to be a rebuild....

Who decided this?

 

[Pastor Of Muppetz]

Toronto was in pretty much the exact same position as us in 2014 when both Benning and Shannahan were hired.

One team fully committed to a plan. Loaded up on draft picks, signed FAs to short terms deals so they could eat up the tough mintues, lead the young guys and eventually flip for assets that would help them down the line, and also flipped their older vets for those same future assets. Aka rebuilding.

One team refused to accept reality and instead pushed for the playoffs. They traded picks for older "prospects" in hopes to retool quickly, wasted multiple draft picks on crap, refused to cash in on older players and signed multiple UFAs to horrible contracts. The most amazing thing the GM of this team has accomplished is selling ignorant fans an idea that he's actually been rebuilding.

One team is a Stanley Cup contender the other one isn't even close.

Guess what team your boy is the GM of?

They were..?...Kessel,26..JVR,25..Bozak,28..Kadri,23..Reilly,20..Phaneuf,29....As opposed to Sedins,33..Vrbata,33..Higgins,31..Burrows,33.,Bieksa,33..Bonino,26....Hamhius,31.

Looks to me like one team has a bunch of prospects coming up ,or in their prime years..and the other has a declining group..In 2014,Horvat was the only decent prospect we had.

When was the last time the Leafs won a playoff round?

 

[member 290103]

Who decided this?

Trevor Linden.

Ridiculous strategy but that is what happened. Said he could not look the players in the face and tell them they were rebuilding. As soon as they retired he then wanted to rebuild.

I guess Trevor Linden was here first and foremost to support the Sedins. Building a winning team was secondary.

Happy to see him go.

 

[xtra]

They were..?...Kessel,26..JVR,25..Bozak,28..Kadri,23..Reilly,20..Phaneuf,29....As opposed to Sedins,33..Vrbata,33..Higgins,31..Burrows,33.,Bieksa,33..Bonino,26....Hamhius,31.

Looks to me like one team has a bunch of prospects coming up ,or in their prime years..and the other has a declining group..In 2014,Horvat was the only decent prospect we had.

When was the last time the Leafs won a playoff round?

You left out edler, horvat,markstrom, Hutton, tanev

 

[Peter10]

For the 100th time..as long as the Sedins were here, there was not going to be a rebuild....

Instead we were just a terrible bottom feeder stumbling into top picks as reward for incompetence.

 

[Pastor Of Muppetz]

Trevor Linden.

Ridiculous strategy but that is what happened. Said he could not look the players in the face and tell them they were rebuilding. As soon as they retired he then wanted to rebuild.

I guess Trevor Linden was here first and foremost to support the Sedins. Building a winning team was secondary.

Happy to see him go.

He has the quote..was it him though.?.. (I suspect it probably was)..Probably ownership as well..This is the mandate that JB had to work around (my .02 cents),..if JB didnt..they would have just hired some other GM who would...

 

[Krnuckfan]

Who decided this?

No one. It's a classic excuse by the Benning bros.

Facts: Benning thought and believed he could turn this thing around quickly. He tried to turn the team into a playoff contender and ended up with the worst team in the entire league over a 3 year stretch.

Benning never even thought that we needed elias pettersson. If he had it his way we would have made the playoffs in 17. But because hes an incompetent moron the team finished in the gutter and thanks to brackett we ended up with pettersson.

Team is still nowhere close to playoffs let alone being a cup contender. They're on pace for 82 points. Traditionally the bar for the playoffs is like 95 points. The multitude of garbage teams in the western conference is masking this teams poor record.

They're 12 points away from the minimum bar to even reach the playoffs. Half the teams in the league make the playoffs and it isnt even a notable accomplishment in any way. The Oilers made the playoffs two years ago and look at them now. Playoffs means nothing. It's one thing to be a playoff team and a whole another to become a cup contender. Making the playoffs is the easy part. Becoming a cup contender, that's what's actually hard and the baseline for how the gm should be judged.

As long as this moron is in charge the team will never even make the playoffs let alone be an actual cup contender.

 

[Pastor Of Muppetz]

Instead we were just a terrible bottom feeder stumbling into top picks as reward for incompetence.

Thats what happens when one cycle ends for your team and another one begins....Enjoy the benefits of being a 3 years bottom feeder.

 

[Pastor Of Muppetz]

No one. It's a classic excuse by the Benning bros.

Facts: Benning thought and believed he could turn this thing around quickly. He tried to turn the team into a playoff contender and ended up with the worst team in the entire league over a 3 year stretch.

Benning never even thought that we needed elias pettersson. If he had it his way we would have made the playoffs in 17. But because hes an incompetent moron the team finished in the gutter and thanks to brackett we ended up with pettersson.

Team is still nowhere close to playoffs let alone being a cup contender. They're on pace for 82 points. Traditionally the bar for the playoffs is like 95 points. The multitude of garbage teams in the western conference is making this teams poor record.

They're 12 points away from the minimum bar to even reach the playoffs. Half the teams in the league make the playoffs and it isnt even an notable accomplishment in any way. The Oilers made the playoffs two years ago and look at them now. Playoffs means nothing. It's one thing to be a playoff team and a whole other to become a cup contender.

As long as this moron is in charge the team will never even make the playoffs let alone be an actual cup contender.

Garbage...google the Trevor Linden quote..and read it.

 

[timw33]

For the 100th time..as long as the Sedins were here, there was not going to be a rebuild....

Managers should do what's in the best interest of the franchise. Managers should set a viable plan and then the elder statesmen of the team can decide whether they are part of the plan or they want out. Instead they walked on eggshells around the Sedins and ended up performing like a rebuilding team while trying to compete, with none of the benefits of a rebuilding team.

 

[Peter10]

Thats what happens when one cycle ends for your team and another one begins....Enjoy the benefits of being a 3 years bottom feeder.

Nope. They wasted 3 years. If the mandate was not to rebuild and try to be competitive while the Twins were still around then Benning did an aweful job at this.

Of course had they rebuild, they could have had the very same benefits of being a bottom feeder and add additional benefits to it as well.

 

[Pastor Of Muppetz]

Managers should do what's in the best interest of the franchise. Managers should set a viable plan and then the elder statesmen of the team can decide whether they are part of the plan or they want out. Instead they walked on eggshells around the Sedins and ended up performing like a rebuilding team while trying to compete, with none of the benefits of a rebuilding team.

I agree with you that after the 2015 loss to Calgary,they should have cleaned house ..but the Sedin 'last kick at the can' era went on for another 1.5 years.

 

[Dr Good Vibes]

I think Benning tried to straddle the fence between rebuild and compete. Traded a bunch of picks for middling guys between the ages of 20-24 with varying levels of upside. A very noncommittal strategy where you’re not going all in and trading for roster players but you’re also not acquiring picks. It wasn’t a great approach. Almost all of the experimental projects acquired didn’t work out and we paid a bunch of seconds and thirds for them. One of my least favourite was Forsling for Clendening.

 

[4Twenty]

They were..?...Kessel,26..JVR,25..Bozak,28..Kadri,23..Reilly,20..Phaneuf,29....As opposed to Sedins,33..Vrbata,33..Higgins,31..Burrows,33.,Bieksa,33..Bonino,26....Hamhius,31.

Looks to me like one team has a bunch of prospects coming up ,or in their prime years..and the other has a declining group..In 2014,Horvat was the only decent prospect we had.

When was the last time the Leafs won a playoff round?

You know you're cherry picking when you mention Bonino and Vrbata, who this regime acquired, why not mention Miller too?

Tanev 24, Kesler 29, Edler 27, Markstrom 24, Horvat 19, Hutton 21.

Toronto got a 2nd for Phaneuf...Van got a 2nd for Garrison and Bieksa, and could've had a 1st + recent 1st for Hamhuis.

Burrows turned into Dahlen....do we still like Dahlen?

Higgins was a dud, but he was also injured at the start of the year, had a solid 2nd line season the year prior....seeing a 22 year old Willie Nylander struggle to get up to NHL speed shows just how hard it would'v been for 32 year old Higgins.

Big whoop, the twins wouldn't waive....I find it hilarious with the benefit of hindsight people still hold onto Linden stating they wouldn't rebuild with the Twins. The way I personally interpret that statement, I think he meant they wouldn't intentionally bottom out the team while they were here.....guess what Pastor, the team bottomed out anyway, largely due to the moves made NOT TO REBUILD.

Do you not understand how stupid it is to praise the group for "not rebuilding" when their moves to compete got them to the same spot, just with less future assets than they should have? It's baffling.

 

[Pastor Of Muppetz]

You know you're cherry picking when you mention Bonino and Vrbata, who this regime acquired, why not mention Miller too?

Tanev 24, Kesler 29, Edler 27, Markstrom 24, Horvat 19, Hutton 21.

Toronto got a 2nd for Phaneuf...Van got a 2nd for Garrison and Bieksa, and could've had a 1st + recent 1st for Hamhuis.

Burrows turned into Dahlen....do we still like Dahlen?

Higgins was a dud, but he was also injured at the start of the year, had a solid 2nd line season the year prior....seeing a 22 year old Willie Nylander struggle to get up to NHL speed shows just how hard it would'v been for 32 year old Higgins.

Big whoop, the twins wouldn't waive....I find it hilarious with the benefit of hindsight people still hold onto Linden stating they wouldn't rebuild with the Twins. The way I personally interpret that statement, I think he meant they wouldn't intentionally bottom out the team while they were here.....guess what Pastor, the team bottomed out anyway, largely due to the moves made NOT TO REBUILD.

Do you not understand how stupid it is to praise the group for "not rebuilding" when their moves to compete got them to the same spot, just with less future assets than they should have? It's baffling.

Kesler was gone, Markstrom was insignificant (wasn't he on waivers that year ?)..Horvat was too young to pull on the rope..and Hutton was a Hail Mary who did not materialize till a year later.

Where am I praising the group for 'not rebuilding'.?.read post #188..I am just speculating on 'what happened'..

 

[4Twenty]

Kesler was gone, Markstrom was insignificant (wasn't he on waivers that year ?)..Horvat was too young to pull on the rope..and Hutton was a Hail Mary who did not materialize till a year later.

Where am I praising the group for 'not rebuilding'.?.read post #188..I am just speculating on 'what happened'..

So you're not talking about the team Benning inherited? Weird, that's what I thought the topic was when 2014 was being mentioned.

Horvat was a year younger than Rielly, so if you list one, you gotta list the other....fair is fair.

Benning should've rebuilt day one.

I think it's praise for not rebuilding when you make excuses for them being bad anyways, essentially bottoming out like rebuilds are supposed to, without prioritizing futures/picks.

Apologies for coming in late, but when I see 2014 mentioned, I just assumed you're talking about the start of Benning's tenure.

 

[Pastor Of Muppetz]

So you're not talking about the team Benning inherited? Weird, that's what I thought the topic was when 2014 was being mentioned.

Horvat was a year younger than Rielly, so if you list one, you gotta list the other....fair is fair.

Benning should've rebuilt day one.

I think it's praise for not rebuilding when you make excuses for them being bad anyways, essentially bottoming out like rebuilds are supposed to, without prioritizing futures/picks.

Apologies for coming in late, but when I see 2014 mentioned, I just assumed you're talking about the start of Benning's tenure.

I was replying to a poster that claimed that Toronto and Vancouver were in an exact same position as us in 2014...Even if we trade off Horvat and Reilly..I think its fair to say the Leafs still had the better prime assets....We had players on the downside of their careers, and a few players way too young to pull on the rope.

I think the Canucks should have rebuilt after the 2013 sweep of the Canucks by the SJS...the writing was even on the wall then..IMO

 

[The Optimist]

I agree with you that after the 2015 loss to Calgary,they should have cleaned house ..but the Sedin 'last kick at the can' era went on for another 1.5 years.

Part of being a good General Manager is to take a realistic evaluation of the roster. Everyone knew that the Canucks needed to start a rebuild and yet Benning did not do this. Even Torts recognized the core was stale. Instead Benning doubled down and continued to trade for 'age gap' players and signed veteran free agents - the complete opposite of what should have happened.

Compare this to Gillis, the best General Manager in Canucks history: came in, decided to not re-sign Naslund or Morrison, despite the former being the Captain and even a former client. Gillis made drastic changes, changes for the better that lead to back-to-back President's trophies. Benning eventually made changes too, finishing with the worst record (or is it second worst?) in a three year span.

A good manager makes tough decisions. A good manager has a plan and executes it. Benning does neither. Benning is not a good general manager.

 

[4Twenty]

I was replying to a poster that claimed that Toronto and Vancouver were in an exact same position as us in 2014...Even if we trade off Horvat and Reilly..I think its fair to say the Leafs still had the better prime assets....We had players on the downside of their careers, and a few players way too young to pull on the rope.

I think the Canucks should have rebuilt after the 2013 sweep of the Canucks by the SJS...the writing was even on the wall then..IMO

Sure, I'll give you that the Leafs players were younger, but the difference isn't as large as you're making it out to be. Still makes no sense to list players like Vrbata and Bonino.

Phanuef was younger than Hamhuis, but the Chicago offer for Hamhuis was far and away better than what Toronto got for Phaneuf.

The situation was similar, not exact, but the difference is, it's looks like one team had a good plan and the other either had no plan, a bad plan or a decent plan with abysmal execution.

 

[4Twenty]

They should've built in 2013, but excusing every move Benning made since he was hired because Sedins and they couldn't rebuild, when they bottomed out anyways is such a weird position to take.

 

[Pastor Of Muppetz]

Part of being a good General Manager is to take a realistic evaluation of the roster. Everyone knew that the Canucks needed to start a rebuild and yet Benning did not do this. Even Torts recognized the core was stale. Instead Benning doubled down and continued to trade for 'age gap' players and signed veteran free agents - the complete opposite of what should have happened.

Compare this to Gillis, the best General Manager in Canucks history: came in, decided to not re-sign Naslund or Morrison, despite the former being the Captain and even a former client. Gillis made drastic changes, changes for the better that lead to back-to-back President's trophies. Benning eventually made changes too, finishing with the worst record (or is it second worst?) in a three year span.

A good manager makes tough decisions. A good manager has a plan and executes it. Benning does neither. Benning is not a good general manager.

Read Lindens quote..post #179...but yeah..a rebuild should have happened...They instead had a 100 point season and made the playoffs..furthering the illusion that the team was competitive (in fact, it was the last gasp of a dying core).

Gillis was denied a rebuild by ownership in 2013..why would ownership reverse this in 2014 and give one to Benning..?.add in the Sedins new extensions (2013) and Lindens quote and there you are.....Gillis was the GM through their 'golden period',but he made some nasty mistakes as well, and context has to be given as to what they both inherited.

 

[The Optimist]

Gillis was denied a rebuild by ownership in 2013..why would ownership reverse this in 2014 and give one to Benning..?.add in the Sedins new extensions (2013) and Lindens quote and there you are....

Even if this is true, it does not excuse the horrible job that Benning did. What was Benning's plan? If you think it was to make the playoffs, which you seem to suggest, then how is it acceptable that the team went on to one of the worst records during his first 3 years?

Just because ownership prevented Benning from rebuilding doesn't excuse his mismanagement of the team. If he was stuck going for the playoffs he could have at least brought in some valuable assets to do it. But he didn't.

 

[Pastor Of Muppetz]

They should've built in 2013, but excusing every move Benning made since he was hired because Sedins and they couldn't rebuild, when they bottomed out anyways is such a weird position to take.

I'm not excusing some of those moves at all...but there was a 'context' in which these moves were made. (rebuild on the fly)..and this is why I believe that ownership gave JB a bit more time ...as he was put into a challenging situation in his first 3 years here.

i look at JB's tenureship in two parts (2014-TDL 2017) and (TDL 2017-2019).

 

[Pastor Of Muppetz]

Even if this is true, it does not excuse the horrible job that Benning did. What was Benning's plan? If you think it was to make the playoffs, which you seem to suggest, then how is it acceptable that the team went on to one of the worst records during his first 3 years?

Just because ownership prevented Benning from rebuilding doesn't excuse his mismanagement of the team. If he was stuck going for the playoffs he could have at least brought in some valuable assets to do it. But he didn't.

The team made the playoffs in JB's first year here...had a 100 point season...the freefall started the year after, and continued for two more years.

It takes valuable assets to get valuable assets.