Jim Benning Discussion -- Part II

[WetcoastOrca]

Well if we didn't sign Miller to that 6M contract, we could've easily kept Garrison. Does anybody believe that Miller is 4M better than Lack to justify us shipping out Garrison?

Miller is way better than Lack.
I love Eddie. He's a great guy. But he's done nothing to prove that he can be a starting goalie.

 

[Tiranis]

Yes, I believe that Garrison is going to start declining in the next year or so. I think the value in the deal lies closer to the end of the contract, as opposed to now.

How many defensemen with so little mileage who don't rely on their physical play started declining at age 31? Even Bieksa, the exact opposite of that statement, only truly started his decline this season.

 

[WetcoastOrca]

I would say age had little to do with Garrison's trade, I can agree about "fit".

Benning gets credit around here for going after an older defensman, so I don't think age was that big of a factor.

----

I'll even concede to you that I can't allocate cap dollars to specific players, that's fine....cuts both ways though.

Who was the older defenceman he went after?
I've been saying for a couple of years now that the team needs to change the age of their top 4 guys. I think it came down to Edler and Garrison with most people wanting Edler traded. The turn around in Edler has been remarkable!

As long as we're conceding, I'll concede that Garrison has played better in TBay than I expected. He's had a good bounce back year.

 

[canucks10]

nope.



that's literally what he's best at.

Your opinion is bad and you should feel bad.

Garrison was brought in to give the Canucks a legit threat on the power play after Salo left he was never able to do that.
The fact that he was a left handed shot meant that he was stuck behind Edler & Hamhuis on his natural side so the only top 4 time he got was usually spent playing on his off side the defensive pairings were constantly rotating but he played best as a top 6 playing on the left.
Now his defensive struggles may be a bit overblown due to the fact that the entire Canucks team sucked defensively last year but he certainly wasn't a rock.

whether you like Garrison or not his play during his time in Vancouver was never worth his salary and if he was still on the team then chances are Vrbata wouldn't be.

 

[arttk]

Garrison is signed through 17/18. It's not just abut this season, but having some cap flexibility going forward.

I argue that flexibility is lost by giving Miller a 3 yr 6M NTC.

 

[arsmaster*]

Yes, I believe that Garrison is going to start declining in the next year or so. I think the value in the deal lies closer to the end of the contract, as opposed to now.

$4.6m will be at the low end for #4 dmen, if that's the label you'd like to place on him in 3 years. Not to mention the backdiving contract where he get's paid $4.5 this year, $3.5 the next and $2.5 in the final year.

33 year old dman , Brooks Orpik just signed a 5 year deal for $5.5m. That's how old Garrison will be when his contract expires.

I think you could get a 2nd round pick for Garrison at any stage for the remainder of his deal, maybe even more if he's still contributing like he has to this stage of his career in the final years of this deal.

There is certainly a case to be made with his "fit" here, but not that we got value or that his value would fall further. I guess you can make that case, but then we'd all need our crystal balls.

 

[arttk]

Miller is way better than Lack.
I love Eddie. He's a great guy. But he's done nothing to prove that he can be a starting goalie.

I don't believe that Miller > Lack + Garrison. Basically our D depth sucks now and Miller is not really good enough to mask that lack of depth.

 

[canucks10]

The team invested Garrison's hit on the goalie.

Vrbata's salary is Kesler's.

I won't touch on the "giant contract" comment, my thoughts on it are in 5 or 6 threads on the front page

Had Benning kept Garrison he would have only had enough cap to sign one of Miller or Vrbata i can almost guarantee you he would have chosen Miller so thats the reasoning i put into saying Garrison's salary relief was used on Vrbata not Miller.

 

[WetcoastOrca]

I don't believe that Miller > Lack + Garrison. Basically our D depth sucks now and Miller is not really good enough to mask that lack of depth.

I shudder to think where this team would be in the standings with Lack and Garrison and no Miller.
Garrison shouldn't take the blame for the horrible defence last year but the mix of defenders just seems so much better this year. In part it's coaching and in part it's a better role for players. Like night and day from last year though.

 

[arsmaster*]

Who was the older defenceman he went after?
I've been saying for a couple of years now that the team needs to change the age of their top 4 guys. I think it came down to Edler and Garrison with most people wanting Edler traded. The turn around in Edler has been remarkable!

As long as we're conceding, I'll concede that Garrison has played better in TBay than I expected. He's had a good bounce back year.

32 year old Christian Ehrhoff. Benning's ardent supporters use this phone call or a tweet that says he kicked the tires as solace that he "had a plan".

I agree Edler's turnaround has been great, I wouldn't have traded either for a 2nd round pick though.

Garrison was brought in to give the Canucks a legit threat on the power play after Salo left he was never able to do that.
The fact that he was a left handed shot meant that he was stuck behind Edler & Hamhuis on his natural side so the only top 4 time he got was usually spent playing on his off side the defensive pairings were constantly rotating but he played best as a top 6 playing on the left.
Now his defensive struggles may be a bit overblown due to the fact that the entire Canucks team sucked defensively last year but he certainly wasn't a rock.

whether you like Garrison or not his play during his time in Vancouver was never worth his salary and if he was still on the team then chances are Vrbata wouldn't be.

Garrison was brought in to bring a defensive look to the group. This is where expectations influence opinions.

He was brought in to solidify the depth and make us a harder team to break down, the goals and PP stuff was just gravy.

Vanwest and I agreed that you can't attribute Garrison's salary to any one signing, so you can continue to say Vrbata wouldn't have been here, and many will say Miller wouldn't. Nobody is right or wrong. This totally forgoes the fact we took on a ~$2+ million dollar cap dump to move Kesler to the only place he wanted to go, but thats been banged around the bush a lot.

 

[Pip]

nope.



that's literally what he's best at.

Your opinion is bad and you should feel bad.

This

 

[arsmaster*]

I shudder to think where this team would be in the standings with Lack and Garrison and no Miller.
Garrison shouldn't take the blame for the horrible defence last year but the mix of defenders just seems so much better this year. In part it's coaching and in part it's a better role for players. Like night and day from last year though.

I'd be interested to hear your analysis on last years first half instead of grouping the worst 40 game stretch for this franchise in a very long time into it.

People are being blinded by how we finished, but at the same stage we've allowed more goals and scored less, I guess it's more entertaining.

 

[Scurr]

$4.6m will be at the low end for #4 dmen, if that's the label you'd like to place on him in 3 years. Not to mention the backdiving contract where he get's paid $4.5 this year, $3.5 the next and $2.5 in the final year.

33 year old dman , Brooks Orpik just signed a 5 year deal for $5.5m. That's how old Garrison will be when his contract expires.

I think you could get a 2nd round pick for Garrison at any stage for the remainder of his deal, maybe even more if he's still contributing like he has to this stage of his career in the final years of this deal.

There is certainly a case to be made with his "fit" here, but not that we got value or that his value would fall further. I guess you can make that case, but then we'd all need our crystal balls.

You're a selective psychic

 

[WetcoastOrca]

32 year old Christian Ehrhoff. Benning's ardent supporters use this phone call or a tweet that says he kicked the tires as solace that he "had a plan".

I agree Edler's turnaround has been great, I wouldn't have traded either for a 2nd round pick though.


Garrison was brought in to bring a defensive look to the group. This is where expectations influence opinions.

He was brought in to solidify the depth and make us a harder team to break down, the goals and PP stuff was just gravy.

Vanwest and I agreed that you can't attribute Garrison's salary to any one signing, so you can continue to say Vrbata wouldn't have been here, and many will say Miller wouldn't. Nobody is right or wrong. This totally forgoes the fact we took on a ~$2+ million dollar cap dump to move Kesler to the only place he wanted to go, but thats been banged around the bush a lot.

No harm in asking about Ehrhoff but I don't think he's the long term solution. I am still of the view that we need to pick up a younger defenceman with some offensive upside. I think we have some decent pieces now with Edler, Tanev and likely Corrado and a few years of Hamhuis. But no real obvious puck mover or PP quarterback on the horizon. It's a big hole.

 

[canucks10]

32 year old Christian Ehrhoff. Benning's ardent supporters use this phone call or a tweet that says he kicked the tires as solace that he "had a plan".

I agree Edler's turnaround has been great, I wouldn't have traded either for a 2nd round pick though.


Garrison was brought in to bring a defensive look to the group. This is where expectations influence opinions.

He was brought in to solidify the depth and make us a harder team to break down, the goals and PP stuff was just gravy.

Vanwest and I agreed that you can't attribute Garrison's salary to any one signing, so you can continue to say Vrbata wouldn't have been here, and many will say Miller wouldn't. Nobody is right or wrong. This totally forgoes the fact we took on a ~$2+ million dollar cap dump to move Kesler to the only place he wanted to go, but thats been banged around the bush a lot.

I get that you can't attribute his salary to any certain player but going into free agency if Benning had to choose on whether to sign Miller or Vrbata does anyone actually think he would have chosen Vrbata? Trading Garrison aloud him to do both

 

[Jimson Hogarth*]

Garrison shouldn't take the blame for the horrible defence last year but the mix of defenders just seems so much better this year. In part it's coaching and in part it's a better role for players. Like night and day from last year though.

I kept thinking I misread this...I think this could be one of the worst Canuck D-core's I've seen in a long, long time.

 

[WetcoastOrca]

I'd be interested to hear your analysis on last years first half instead of grouping the worst 40 game stretch for this franchise in a very long time into it.

People are being blinded by how we finished, but at the same stage we've allowed more goals and scored less, I guess it's more entertaining.

I don't really group seasons into first halfs and last halfs.
Last year we were bad. Sixth worst in the entire NHL which puts us in some pretty putrid company.
This year we're a playoff bubble team. I'm not expecting us to fall of a cliff just because we did last year. I don't really see any connection between this year and last year and can't see why the season would change dramatically this year from how it's gone so far.

 

[arsmaster*]

You're a selective psychic

Yeah, I knew somebody was going pick up on that, but I didn't feel like changing the stuff I typed previously.

Do you think if Garrison hit the market now, teams would give up more than a 2nd?

Better yet, would Yzerman take a 2nd?

 

[Tiranis]

Better yet, would Yzerman take a 2nd?

Tampa's fans think they can get at least a 2nd for him in the last year of his deal. (To make room for their younger players.)

 

[WetcoastOrca]

I kept thinking I misread this...I think this could be one of the worst Canuck D-core's I've seen in a long, long time.

Really? This year our goals against is the best in the Pacific and people keep saying Miller is crap.
Someone must be responsible for the better defensive play.

 

[Trelane]

Caught in passing JB's earlier TSN radio interview where he thinks he got 4-5 NHLers in last year's draft. Named them all: Virtanen to Forsling.

Got to say, If I heard correctly, that's some serious wishful thinking. Risky putting it out like that. Could bite him in the rear in 5 years if most or all are duds. With this club 1 is average, 2 is good, 3 is astonishing, and 4-5 would be God sent.

 

[Verviticus]

id be impressed if two of them were nhlers

 

[lush]

I may regret this statement but presently I am excited to see Bennings first trade deadline. I saw a comment from him earlier this week (I think) stating he wouldn't be trading picks. Good news there.


He seems keen to wheel and deal a bit, but in my mind it's possible we could see the team improve with some good old fashioned hockey trades. Forget labelling things as "rebuilding" or "going for it"

 

[Tiranis]

With this club 1 is average, 2 is good, 3 is astonishing, and 4-5 would be God sent.

That's not even with this club. Getting 2 NHLers out of a draft is great value for any team. Thinking you got 4-5 the year after the draft is delusional.

 

[arttk]

I shudder to think where this team would be in the standings with Lack and Garrison and no Miller.
Garrison shouldn't take the blame for the horrible defence last year but the mix of defenders just seems so much better this year. In part it's coaching and in part it's a better role for players. Like night and day from last year though.

Miller was no better if not even poorer than Lack prior to the last stretch of games, the only reason why we won so many games is due to the whole team scoring more goals than anyone expected.

If we kept Garrison, this is what our D would look like and it is miles better than what we have.

Edler Tanev
Hamhuis Bieksa
Garrison Stanton

Weber Corrado