Jim Benning Discussion -- Part II

[Diamonddog01]

There was a real need for insurance in that case given that Edler was the only defenseman signed at that point for longer than one season. Plan wasn't flawed...execution was (horribly wrong player was chosen).

I guess you could view in that light. That seems more like having solid depth to me though - ridiculous to expend assets on a 5th defenceman making 4+ million and signed for several more seasons.

 

[arsmaster*]

Some truth to that. Booth was pretty coveted around here because of his big years before the concussion. But you'd think that our scouting would have seen how far he'd declined.
But the Ballard deal looked brutal from the moment it was announced. And that was even without knowing that Grabner would become an NHL player. That should have been a cap dump deal but instead Tallon fleeced Gillis for a high pick. The fact that the player drafted hasn't amounted to much doesn't change that deal at all.
And as anther poster mentioned, the salary saved by Florida was huge for a small market team.

Lots of truth to that. 100% truth.

Booth even after the concussion still scored at a 23 goal pace/82, he was pretty consistent in that prior to getting his knee taken out against the Avalanche that year we acquired him.

Ballard had just come off his 5th year in the league, and played all 82 games for 4 of those years. He was playing top pairing minutes. The hindsight views of Ballard don't fit the player we thought we were acquiring. People also forget the other team bidding for his services at that time were another very good team, the St Louis Blues....are they dummies too?

The cap space Florida gained allowed them to pay career 3rd liners top 6 money on inflated contracts, they didn't really change anything.

 

[WetcoastOrca]

Lots of truth to that. 100% truth.

Booth even after the concussion still scored at a 23 goal pace/82, he was pretty consistent in that prior to getting his knee taken out against the Avalanche that year we acquired him.

Ballard had just come off his 5th year in the league, and played all 82 games for 4 of those years. He was playing top pairing minutes. The hindsight views of Ballard don't fit the player we thought we were acquiring. People also forget the other team bidding for his services at that time were another very good team, the St Louis Blues....are they dummies too?

The cap space Florida gained allowed them to pay career 3rd liners top 6 money on inflated contracts, they didn't really change anything.

Like I said, how the deals ultimately turned out for Florida doesn't really change the fact that they were terrible trades. Had Florida drafted a number one defenceman with their pick in the Ballard deal, I doubt that people would be making excuses for that trade.
I can justify the Booth trade. Sometimes even the best swing and miss.
But the Ballard trade, looked bad even at the time.

Gillis had some good attributes but I think he suffered from a belief that he was smarter than everyone eles. Some of his moves especially later on were just baffling.

 

[Alan Jackson]

I don't even think it has to be a Gillis vs Benning thing, the Benning guys seem to want it to be.

I'm not a Benning guy, I'm a "Give the new GM a chance" guy.

A lot of the criticism Benning has received is entirely because he's Benning and not Gillis.

For whatever reason, some posters have pre-determined that they're going to criticize everything Benning does. Look at the reaction to the Kassian trade rumours - people are already complaining about a trade that hasn't happened! Benning could turn Kassian into Crosby, and people would come on here and complain about Crosby's cap hit and concussion history.

 

[arsmaster*]

But the Ballard trade, looked bad even at the time.

Agree to disagree.

 

[WetcoastOrca]

I'm not a Benning guy, I'm a "Give the new GM a chance" guy.

A lot of the criticism Benning has received is entirely because he's Benning and not Gillis.

For whatever reason, some posters have pre-determined that they're going to criticize everything Benning does. Look at the reaction to the Kassian trade rumours - people are already complaining about a trade that hasn't happened! Benning could turn Kassian into Crosby, and people would come on here and complain about Crosby's cap hit and concussion history.

Amen!
The issue I have with some of the criticisms of Benning is that it's the same people who said he was an idiot at the beginning who have criticized every move he's made rather than weighing each move. Heck some have even criticized moves he hasn't made, like as you point out, a Kassian trade that hasn't even happened.

I've always been of the view that you wait and assess a GM after he's been given a while.
People shouldn't be Benning or Gillis guys. I liked some of the moves Gillis made and I hated some of his moves as well. Overall I think he did more good than bad but it was time for someone new. So far, I like the direction that Benning has moved the team and the additions he has made. The draft looks like a real strong one for us. But it's one off season. Way too early to judge him, IMO.

 

[Diamonddog01]

I'm not a Benning guy, I'm a "Give the new GM a chance" guy.

A lot of the criticism Benning has received is entirely because he's Benning and not Gillis.

For whatever reason, some posters have pre-determined that they're going to criticize everything Benning does. Look at the reaction to the Kassian trade rumours - people are already complaining about a trade that hasn't happened! Benning could turn Kassian into Crosby, and people would come on here and complain about Crosby's cap hit and concussion history.

Bang on. People are nitpicking every single trade and acquisition when Benning's acquisitions, apart from the Sedins, are really the only positives for this team at the moment.

And of course there's the numerous insulting comments about him being from the prairies, or not that great of a public speaker.

 

[Jimson Hogarth*]

I think I roasted Gillis even more than I have Benning, especially in Gillis' first year. I burned that guy so hard on the daily.

Oh and the initial Ballard trade wasn't the mistake, holding onto the asset the coach didn't want was.

I remember Gillis' initial comments about the Sedins, people ripped him ssooooo hard for that. Makes the mistakes Benning make look like he's getting away with murder. With big Trev around, Prairie GM hasn't seen it tough at all.

 

[Alan Jackson]

Makes the mistakes Benning make look like he's getting away with murder. With big Trev around, Prairie GM hasn't seen it tough at all.

"Prairie GM"

Fair and balanced.

 

[Jimson Hogarth*]

"Prairie GM"

Fair and balanced.

Borrowed it from "french coach"

was that fair and balanced? I was a lurker then, seem to remember you using the phrase, correct or not?

And whats wrong with the Prairie's? You got a problem with Canada's heartland?

 

[WetcoastOrca]

"Prairie GM"

Fair and balanced.

I think it's all in good fun!
Nothing wrong with saying Prairie GM. We have Prairie President too!
Gillis was Sweaty GM.
Reminds me of a SNL skit, Schweddy Balls.

 

[Tiranis]

People are nitpicking every single trade and acquisition when Benning's acquisitions, apart from the Sedins, are really the only positives for this team at the moment.

This is as far removed from reality as that ranking of Vezina winning goalies by wins. H. Sedin, Edler, Tanev, Burrows, Lack, Horvat, Markstrom...

 

[Scurr]

I'd like to see the aquaman get JB the same makeover he got after his divorce. I think it will be easier to make a "good trade" with a better haircut.

 

[Jimson Hogarth*]

I'd like to see the aquaman get JB the same makeover he got after his divorce. I think it will be easier to make a good trade with a better haircut.

well you know I like the way Jim styles his hair you know...he tries real hard and its a real meat and potato's look...


cut flat like the prairies. Now thats a haircut I can set a watch to.

 

[Ryp37]

Bang on. People are nitpicking every single trade and acquisition when Benning's acquisitions, apart from the Sedins, are really the only positives for this team at the moment.

And of course there's the numerous insulting comments about him being from the prairies, or not that great of a public speaker.

Benning is the GM of the Canucks
This is a Canuck forum
People are going to nitpick every move regardless whose GM

Clearly fans seem very split on him, although quite a few casual fans seem to think hes a genius

 

[Alan Jackson]

Borrowed it from "french coach"

was that fair and balanced? I was a lurker then, seem to remember you using the phrase, correct or not?

And whats wrong with the Prairie's? You got a problem with Canada's heartland?

I'll assume it's a term of endearment then. My apologies.

And no, I never used "French coach", as far as I can recall.

What I would like is that we judge the new administration by the team it puts on the ice, and not the mannerisms or haircut or speaking style of the GM.

So far, I think he's done pretty well. Just my opinion, but the standings seem to back me up.

 

[Jimson Hogarth*]

I'll assume it's a term of endearment then. My apologies.

And no, I never used "French coach", as far as I can recall.

What I would like is that we judge the new administration by the team it puts on the ice, and not the mannerisms or haircut or speaking style of the GM.

So far, I think he's done pretty well. Just my opinion, but the standings seem to back me up.

Yea, I will admit, while I don't mean it necessarily as an insult, I do use it somewhat with tongue in cheek.

Anyhow I agree, people are being hard on Benning, but I recall when Gillis was hired and it seemed to me people were just as hard on him, maybe even more so.

 

[Diamonddog01]

This is as far removed from reality as that ranking of Vezina winning goalies by wins. H. Sedin, Edler, Tanev, Burrows, Lack, Horvat, Markstrom...

And you realize that my point regarding wins is that is simply one measure among several right? You did understand that I was not stating it is the best, or even a particularly good measure of analyzing a goaltender? I did go to great lengths to state that repeatedly...yes, I made a mistake regarding the table. Didn't change a thing, but my numbers were off, yes.

I don't think Lack is having a particularly good season. I also said 'apart from the Sedins'. Edler, Tanev, Burrows have all performed as expected (well Edler has been excellent).

 

[arsmaster*]

If someone actually believes that people would complain about moving Kassian for Crosby, I don't know what to say.

The jury is out on the 2 trades of good assets JB has made.

People are leery of Benning trading Kassian, because his MO to this stage has been to forego value to get what he wants.

Disagreeing with some of his moves and applauding others is going to happen. I don't think you'll find a single poster questioning the Vrbata contract, it's quite literally the best piece of business he's done so far.

I've come around on Dorsett.

Still hate the Kesler return, still hate the Garrison return, still hate letting a good player walk for nothing, still don't like giving up a top 50 pick for a prospect, and I don't like the Miller contract although I can see his thought process.

 

[WetcoastOrca]

If someone actually believes that people would complain about moving Kassian for Crosby, I don't know what to say.

The jury is out on the 2 trades of good assets JB has made.

People are leery of Benning trading Kassian, because his MO to this stage has been to forego value to get what he wants.

Disagreeing with some of his moves and applauding others is going to happen. I don't think you'll find a single poster questioning the Vrbata contract, it's quite literally the best piece of business he's done so far.

I've come around on Dorsett.

Still hate the Kesler return, still hate the Garrison return, still hate letting a good player walk for nothing, still don't like giving up a top 50 pick for a prospect, and I don't like the Miller contract although I can see his thought process.

That's where we disagree. I think he's gotten value on most of his deals. The problem with second and third round picks is that they are mystery boxes that people think are going to become solid NHL players while players like Vey and Dorsett are somewhat known quantities and we can see their warts.
The biggest difference I see so far between Benning and Gillis is that Gillis was only prepared to pull the trigger when he saw a homerun which resulted in him getting poor value for Schneider and Luongo and an outright steal for Ehrhoff.

But this may not end up as a big difference as Benning may have seen that he had to make significant moves quickly to clean up some of the mess he inherited. In the long run, I expect that their trading styles may not be all that different. It may just come down to Benning moving malcontent players more quickly than Gillis did. And even then some people may blame owenership more than Gillis for the delay on the Kesler and Luongo deals that ended up costing the team Schneider and reduced the possible return on both players. We'll probably never know the truth.

 

[Pip]

Bang on. People are nitpicking every single trade and acquisition when Benning's acquisitions, apart from the Sedins, are really the only positives for this team at the moment.

And of course there's the numerous insulting comments about him being from the prairies, or not that great of a public speaker.

This is not true. For example, many people really wanted to resign Santorelli even before Benning got hired. So when Benning let Santo walk, you can't say the criticism was simply because of who the GM was.

 

[Ryp37]

That's where we disagree. I think he's gotten value on most of his deals.
The biggest difference I see so far between Benning and Gillis is that Gillis was only prepared to pull the trigger when he saw a homerun which resulted in him getting poor value for Schneider and Luongo and an outright steal for Ehrhoff.

But this may not end up as a big difference as Benning may have seen that he had to make significant moves quickly to clean up some of the mess he inherited. In the long run, I expect that their trading styles may not be all that different. It may just come down to Benning moving malcontent players more quickly than Gillis did. And even then some people may blame owenership more than Gillis for the delay on the Kesler and Luongo deals that ended up costing the team Schneider and reduced the possible return on both players. We'll probably never know the truth.

Tired of the Schneider return arguments, goalie market is horrible Schneider had a better return than most goalies these days

 

[Alan Jackson]

This is not true. For example, many people really wanted to resign Santorelli even before Benning got hired. So when Benning let Santo walk, you can't say the criticism was simply because of who the GM was.

Well, the previous regime had the chance to sign Santorelli and failed to do so. We don't seem to hear much about that.

 

[arsmaster*]

That's where we disagree. I think he's gotten value on most of his deals.
The biggest difference I see so far between Benning and Gillis is that Gillis was only prepared to pull the trigger when he saw a homerun which resulted in him getting poor value for Schneider and Luongo and an outright steal for Ehrhoff.

But this may not end up as a big difference as Benning may have seen that he had to make significant moves quickly to clean up some of the mess he inherited. In the long run, I expect that their trading styles may not be all that different. It may just come down to Benning moving malcontent players more quickly than Gillis did. And even then some people may blame owenership more than Gillis for the delay on the Kesler and Luongo deals that ended up costing the team Schneider and reduced the possible return on both players. We'll probably never know the truth.

He moved one malcontent player and got a subpar return and took a cap dump and gave away a top 4 dman for a pick, and now the cap dump is playing his minutes and looks terrible doing it.

The team still needs a better defensman, but some people like to attribute a phone call to a players agent as some sort of solace that he moved a good player for poor value, because he "tried" to replace him.

This is clearly where we differ, because a) Jason Garrison was not a malcontent and b)was not contributing to the "mess"

 

[WetcoastOrca]

Tired of the Schneider return arguments, goalie market is horrible Schneider had a better return than most goalies these days

If the market is that bad for goalies then we should have hung onto him.
The obvious move was to trade Luongo.
Instead we lost both.