Player Discussion Jesse Puljujarvi Discussion Part 4 [UPD: Nov 24th Recalled]

[Oilhawks]

You want a guy with literally 0 goals on your top line? That 2nd line looks nice though. I would put JP/McD/JJ.

Yes, I do. McDavid has had either Draisaitl, or Nuge on his wings, who are our two best playmakers. Rieder and Khaira (flip a coin) are the best playmakers of the remaining wingers. Part of McDavid killing his competition is having a cerebral winger that can keep up with the play and get him the puck as well. Khaira seems to be one of our best players behind the net and has had some killer passes from behind the net to set up goals but I don't think that meshes as much with McDavid's playstyle. It seems to me that Rieder has a better pass "in motion" than Khaira, which is what Connor does best with. Plus I would give Rieder the edge on the defensive side (but Khaira is pretty good defensively IMO). Rieder has been snakebit (better puck luck and he'd have 4-5 goals from watching him in the games he's played, then you could say that for almost all of the wingers) and lets also consider he has been out of the lineup for considerable time.

Caggiula and Puljujarvi are both good at puck retrieval and can score dirty goals (the edge here I would give to Caggs with Pulju having a better shot, on full display tonight) but I like Caggiula's fiestyness.

Really, I think you could interchange those four wingers depending on the game (which is why I was saying to double shift McDavid as seen fit by Hitch). Part of why I like that 4th line is I think it will do the best out of any of our combinations of players that can play on it and it has the best chances of taking over minutes for the ID line and then becoming the 3rd line.

The second line needs to happen no matter what.

 

[Jepprey]

If he's going to be a top six NHL player he's basically going to master doing exactly that (finding an open spot for a shot release).

He's somewhat mediocre with the puck on his stick, he needs to tailor his game to just getting to open spots and letting our centers do most of the work, this is basically what Chiasson does.

Yeah Chaisson has been money in that respect. A big part of Jesse's problem has been his inability to actually get open. It's been rare for him to get clean looks like that.

 

[Soundwave]

Yeah Chaisson has been money in that respect. A big part of Jesse's problem has been his inability to actually get open. It's been rare for him to get clean looks like that.

Yeah he needs to get over the whole "well in Finland I got to carry the puck and quarterback the offence".

That's not gonna happen in the NHL, Jesse, to be that kind of player in the NHL your puck skill needs to be exceptional and quite frankly you just don't have that. It's very evident when a player has that, they just leap off the TV screen.

He needs to understand in the NHL his best shot at being a top six player is learning to simply find open spots and getting the puck off his stick fast and accurately. Let McDavid/Draisaitl/RNH do the "creative work", you just focus on simplifying your game.

 

[Oilhawks]

Yeah he needs to get over the whole "well in Finland I got to carry the puck and quarterback the offence".

That's not gonna happen in the NHL, Jesse, to be that kind of player in the NHL your puck skill needs to be exceptional and quite frankly you just don't have that. It's very evident when a player has that, they just leap off the TV screen.

He needs to understand in the NHL his best shot at being a top six player is learning to simply find open spots and getting the puck off his stick fast and accurately. Let McDavid/Draisaitl/RNH do the "creative work", you just focus on simplifying your game.

Yup. He should focus on his defensive side / forechecking which is quite good, using speed to create havoc and getting in the hashmarks for one timer opportunities. He will be money there. And when that's not working, crash the net and clean up the garbage like he's done before. I see him being a 20+ goal scorer if he can keep it simple like that. He IS a better player than Yakupov, and will not bust if he can work to his strengths.

 

[HockeyHistorian]

I would also like to mention that the Sedins were shat on for years before breaking out.

First round picks who took more than three years to become first line calibre: Sedins, Koivu, Kesler, Ladd, Wheeler, Pacioretty, Schenn, Kreider, Granlund, Schwartz, Couturier.

I actually went through this all with Granlund back in the day, I was a big fan of his. Then I watched him struggle in the NHL, but still saw and believed in the potential, listened people bitch about him for years...

Well, I guess I was eventually proven right. I was also wrong, because I thought he would be able to play a similar game as he did in Europe. Nowadays he is a much more boring player, but effective in the NHL.

I sincerely hope Pulju doesn't lose the qualities that make him one of my favorite players. I want him to have the puck on his stick and create, not just stand there like Chiasson.

 

[Bryanbryoil]

Nice to see him on the PK in the 3rd. Hopefully he can get some breakaway and odd man chances on the PK going forward.

 

[Soundwave]

I actually went through this all with Granlund back in the day, I was a big fan of his. Then I watched him struggle in the NHL, but still saw and believed in the potential, listened people ***** about him for years...

Well, I guess I was eventually proven right. I was also wrong, because I thought he would be able to play a similar game as he did in Europe. Nowadays he is a much more boring player, but effective in the NHL.

I sincerely hope Pulju doesn't lose the qualities that make him one of my favorite players. I want him to have the puck on his stick and create, not just stand there like Chiasson.

He doesn't have the talent level to do that in the NHL.

You need to be like a McDavid, MacKinnon, Seguin, Barzal, Marner, Gaudreau type wizard with the puck to play that type of game OR a relentless Taylor Hall, Jamie Benn type.

He needs to find a way to utilize his shot, because it probably is his best pro hockey attribute.

He cannot dangle or elude NHL level defenders, they just push him off the puck or keep him easily to the outside. If you want to play the whole "puck on my stick all the time!" game, you need to be able to make NHL level defenders look stupid and he's nowhere close to that.

He needs to understand that his game in the NHL is more of a complimentary type of thing and be OK with that. Maybe once he masters that then he can think about stick handling past Drew Doughty or something and playing that style of game, but right now he's no where close to that.

 

[guymez]

I would also like to mention that the Sedins were shat on for years before breaking out.

First round picks who took more than three years to become first line calibre: Sedins, Koivu, Kesler, Ladd, Wheeler, Pacioretty, Schenn, Kreider, Granlund, Schwartz, Couturier.

Actually Henrik is a centre and not really a valid comparable considering centre is a much tougher position to play than wing.
Daniel played wing and scored 20 goals in his first season. He was a solid 0.40 ppg player his first 3 seasons. In his 4th season he was a 0.66 ppg player. His career took off from there and he is going to be a hall of famer.

Jesse is nothing like either Sedin.

Koivu was a 0.33 ppg player in his first season and doubled that in his next season. He never looked back from there. Also he is a centre...so is Kesler, Schenn and Couturier.
Wheeler blows the doors off of Jesse stats...not a good comparable. He was never less than a 0.45ppg player.
Pacioretty was a 0.65 ppg player in his 3rd season.
Kreider was a 0.56 ppg player in his 2nd season.
Mikaels Granlund was a 0.65 ppg player in his 2nd season.
Schwartz was a 0.70 ppg player in (essentially) his 2nd season.

So none of these players are valid comparables.

I like Jesse but the reality of his performance so far simply cant be ignored.
Jesse has been regressing and thats a big problem. He was a 0.30 ppg player his first 2 seasons and his first season was under 30 games so the sample size is quite small. He shows better in smaller sample sizes and fades over the long haul.
This season he is a 0.17 ppg player. He still has a lot of season left but this being his 3rd season he needs to do more than just show glimpses.

It gives me no pleasure to state the obvious here....Jesse is closer to being a bust than he is to being a top 6 NHL player.
Its go time for Jesse and he has a LONG ways to go and a LOT to prove IMO.

 

[The Burning GOAT]

He doesn't have the talent level to do that in the NHL.

You need to be like a McDavid, MacKinnon, Seguin, Marner, Gaudreau type wizard with the puck to play that type of game OR a relentless Taylor Hall, Jamie Benn type.

He needs to find a way to utilize his shot, because it probably is his best pro hockey attribute.

He cannot dangle or elude NHL level defenders, they just push him off the puck or keep him easily to the outside. If you want to play the whole "puck on my stick all the time!" game, you need to be able to make NHL level defenders look stupid and he's nowhere close to that.

He needs to understand that his game in the NHL is more of a complimentary type of thing and be OK with that. Maybe once he masters that then he can think about stick handling past Drew Doughty or something and playing that style of game, but right now he's no where close to that.

That's very true considering the situation NOW, which ultimately doesn't mean he couldn't develop in that aspect into being a secondary possession guy on his line, as you seem to say in the last sentence. Agreed. He could be the perfect support for a high IQ playmaker the Oilers are not short of.

It seems to me that Pulju shines in situations where he has great chemistry with a QB type of player that gives a solid frame for him to be nature boy and do a bit of everything, RELENTLESSLY. Forecheck, skate with the puck, pass and shoot.

I think he still holds high potential and following him these last seasons has left me baffled... I truly thought he would be a lot better by now. He has taken the right direction now and it all starts with the coach.

 

[Soundwave]

I don't really see a ton of skill in him, in all honesty that one move that Sam Bennett pulled on Nurse and crashed into Koskinen (lol) with was probably more puck skill than I've ever seen out of Puljujarvi in the NHL.

He's just incredibly awkward with the puck, it's like as he's skating he's pushing the puck too far ahead of himself and then starts reaching for the puck rather than looking like he's in control of it.

His shot is half way decent though, that's why I think he should try to just work on that and getting to open spots. Basically he should watch Chiasson.

 

[Tyrolean]

He's almost certain to be a bust. Too bad. Just doesn't have the quickness and agility to be a top 6.

 

[HockeyHistorian]

He's just incredibly awkward with the puck, it's like as he's skating he's pushing the puck too far ahead of himself and then starts reaching for the puck rather than looking like he's in control of it.

His shot is half way decent though, that's why I think he should try to just work on that and getting to open spots. Basically he should watch Chiasson.

I admit he doesn't have the softest hands and it hurts him somewhat, but somehow he is/ has been able to deke other players pretty well during his career.

In EA Sports NHL terms I'd say that Pulju has poor puck control, but pretty good deking. I think he should be able to overcome this obstacle. We will see.

 

[Soundwave]

I admit he doesn't have the softest hands and it hurts him somewhat, but somehow he is/ has been able to deke other players pretty well during his career.

In EA Sports NHL terms I'd say that Pulju has poor puck control, but pretty good deking. I think he should be able to overcome this obstacle. We will see.

Deking out players in non-NHL leagues versus doing it against NHL level competition are two very, very, very different things.

You're not given that extra millisecond in the NHL to make moves with.

 

[HockeyHistorian]

Deking out players in non-NHL leagues versus doing it against NHL level competition are two very, very, very different things.

You're not given that extra millisecond in the NHL to make moves with.

I know that, I am not an idiot.

However, in my opinion Pulju plays a damn fast-paced game and always has. He is not doing it consistently, but he has deked many guys in the NHL as well. It remains to be seen if he can consistently make opposing players look as foolish as Dustin Brown earlier this season, but I think he has the ability within him.

It's not the same thing as it was with Granlund who slowed down the play in Europe, but couldn't do it in the NHL.

EDIT: It's only one play, but it's nice to reminisce:

 

[GameChanger]

I like Jesse but the reality of his performance so far simply cant be ignored.
Jesse has been regressing and thats a big problem. He was a 0.30 ppg player his first 2 seasons and his first season was under 30 games so the sample size is quite small. He shows better in smaller sample sizes and fades over the long haul.
This season he is a 0.17 ppg player. He still has a lot of season left but this being his 3rd season he needs to do more than just show glimpses.

It gives me no pleasure to state the obvious here....Jesse is closer to being a bust than he is to being a top 6 NHL player.
Its go time for Jesse and he has a LONG ways to go and a LOT to prove IMO.

I know it's easy to look at ppgs, I sometimes tend to do that myself, too. However, there's no denying that things like the TOI and the amount of PP also play a big part. If we take some of the best players like Drai or Nuge and drop their TOI to 10 minutes per game and take away the PP time their numbers would drop for sure, probably quite drastically. Could we then say they're declining.

I agree the total ppg looks bad, but the good thing is for the last games all aspects, including production (for some 10 ES minutes per game) has been fine. Let's hope he can build from that.

Pulju's goals/60 is the 7th of the team now. Last year at the same time it was the 1st so for sure that's worse now, but I like to think one day the ketchup bottle will open. I agree that he needs to show real development and keeping the level he's had lately would be a good step forward. But like I said the production numbers will also depend on the TOI and the PP usage.

 

[tellermine]

Finally had time to see that Puljujärvi goal flick.

I did remember wrong and only 2 were luckies at start of the last season.(did not look pass goal 6)

I was little disturbed about my false memory, so I actually had to contact my ex work buddies why we laught so mutch to those goals.

Well. Reason was that Pulju was quite lost in many games and did not actually find good spots to be open etc. , and then he just scored.

Last games goal was nice one.
Saddly havent seen any games at Hitch time. It would be interesting to see can he turn puljus game to a top. 6 player.

 

[GameChanger]

However, in my opinion Pulju plays a damn fast-paced game and always has. He is not doing it consistently, but he has deked many guys in the NHL as well. It remains to be seen if he can consistently make opposing players look as foolish as Dustin Brown earlier this season, but I think he has the ability within him.

It's not the same thing as it was with Granlund who slowed down the play in Europe, but couldn't do it in the NHL.

I've said earlier that before coming to NA Pulju wasn't truly exceptional in any single area, but the combination of his 90% skills was quite unique on its own. It may not be a single quality in the traditional way, but his combined QB/shooter's role was something I've maybe never witnessed at junior levels.

One of the areas that didn't reach the 90% level was his stickhandling. I can't give the exact percentage as he's showed very beautiful glimpses that promise a lot (like you said), but he does those quite infrequently so I don't know. Also for long players with long sticks the stickhandling usually looks less smooth than for small players.

Another thing that wasn't at the 90% level was his physical play, but in the juniors he didn't need that as he dominated with the puck and in the FEL he played against adults.

As for the fast-paced game I agree. Earlier he's played hockey at a pace that many linemates can't handle. He gave fast and accurate passes to surprising places with good success. I believe that'll be his strength one day in the NHL, too.

I have no complaints about anything else right now, but I wonder when they'll actually try him as a shooter on the (1st?) PP.

 

[LaGu]

This about NHL being veeeeeeery veeeery different is a bit of an odd point. If you are good at puck handling and dekeing in Euro you'll either be pretty decent at it in the NHL, or you go back home... You need the game to slow down for you to succeed though, maybe Pulju will get there, maybe not. If it does I have no doubt he'll be pretty good at it, that is different from being a McDavid, Marner etc talent though.

 

[Aerrol]

I know that, I am not an idiot.

However, in my opinion Pulju plays a damn fast-paced game and always has. He is not doing it consistently, but he has deked many guys in the NHL as well. It remains to be seen if he can consistently make opposing players look as foolish as Dustin Brown earlier this season, but I think he has the ability within him.

It's not the same thing as it was with Granlund who slowed down the play in Europe, but couldn't do it in the NHL.

EDIT: It's only one play, but it's nice to reminisce:

I was also an early fan of Granlund, but I'm a bit surprised that you find him so disappointing. I've been thrilled to see him overcome his meh (at the NHL level) skating to turn into a legitimate offensive threat at this level. What does he not do now that you miss so much? The dekes? He still pulls those off with regularity. The biggest change IMO is he can't carry the puck as much because he just can't fly around people at this level. In that sense I suppose Pulju might be on a similar path in that while he skates very well, his puck handling might never be there to pull off these rushes every game.

 

[Aerrol]

Actually Henrik is a centre and not really a valid comparable considering centre is a much tougher position to play than wing.
Daniel played wing and scored 20 goals in his first season. He was a solid 0.40 ppg player his first 3 seasons. In his 4th season he was a 0.66 ppg player. His career took off from there and he is going to be a hall of famer.

Jesse is nothing like either Sedin.

Koivu was a 0.33 ppg player in his first season and doubled that in his next season. He never looked back from there. Also he is a centre...so is Kesler, Schenn and Couturier.
Wheeler blows the doors off of Jesse stats...not a good comparable. He was never less than a 0.45ppg player.
Pacioretty was a 0.65 ppg player in his 3rd season.
Kreider was a 0.56 ppg player in his 2nd season.
Mikaels Granlund was a 0.65 ppg player in his 2nd season.
Schwartz was a 0.70 ppg player in (essentially) his 2nd season.

So none of these players are valid comparables.

I like Jesse but the reality of his performance so far simply cant be ignored.
Jesse has been regressing and thats a big problem. He was a 0.30 ppg player his first 2 seasons and his first season was under 30 games so the sample size is quite small. He shows better in smaller sample sizes and fades over the long haul.
This season he is a 0.17 ppg player. He still has a lot of season left but this being his 3rd season he needs to do more than just show glimpses.

It gives me no pleasure to state the obvious here....Jesse is closer to being a bust than he is to being a top 6 NHL player.
Its go time for Jesse and he has a LONG ways to go and a LOT to prove IMO.

By the equivalent point in his career, Granlund was playing his first call up games in the NHL. Krieder didn't until the playoffs of this same year when he admittedly had a very impressive debut. Wheeler didn't play an NHL game until his fifth season after his draft year. Same with Koivu. Schwartz saw his first NHL game in his d+3 year (this year's equivalent). Pacioretty had a fairly similar up and down first three years between the AHL and NHL.

I don't disagree that Jesse has a long ways to go, but if you're going to nitpick someone's examples you should at least be right about your nitpick. Jesse is actually ahead of a lot of those guys at a similar point in his career as most of them didn't even see an NHL game yet (or were just seeing their first games). And that's without getting into the nitty gritty of usage, minutes, and most of the centres.

 

[Aerrol]

Sorry for copying @GameChanger's habit of multiple posts in a row, but I wanted to split these up for easier quoting:

It occurs to me that it might have ended up better for both prospects if Laine and Pulju had been drafted by opposite organizations. Laine is the superior prospect of course, but we were and still are DYING for a triggerman half as good as he is. He might have been breaking Ovies numbers already if he landed here. His English is much better too so maybe Todd would have actually put him top 6 and power play. And Wheeler has (IMO for good reason) been repeatedly used as a good example for a best case career path for Jesse, and he's known as an amazing leader for the Jets too. I imagine he could have been a really great mentor for Jesse in this league.

Ah well, hopefully Jesse can keep building on his stronger games, and I'm sure Winnipeg doesn't have a single regret about their draft choice .

 

[Panda Bear]

Actually Henrik is a centre and not really a valid comparable considering centre is a much tougher position to play than wing.
Daniel played wing and scored 20 goals in his first season. He was a solid 0.40 ppg player his first 3 seasons. In his 4th season he was a 0.66 ppg player. His career took off from there and he is going to be a hall of famer.

Jesse is nothing like either Sedin.

Koivu was a 0.33 ppg player in his first season and doubled that in his next season. He never looked back from there. Also he is a centre...so is Kesler, Schenn and Couturier.
Wheeler blows the doors off of Jesse stats...not a good comparable. He was never less than a 0.45ppg player.
Pacioretty was a 0.65 ppg player in his 3rd season.
Kreider was a 0.56 ppg player in his 2nd season.
Mikaels Granlund was a 0.65 ppg player in his 2nd season.
Schwartz was a 0.70 ppg player in (essentially) his 2nd season.

So none of these players are valid comparables.

I like Jesse but the reality of his performance so far simply cant be ignored.
Jesse has been regressing and thats a big problem. He was a 0.30 ppg player his first 2 seasons and his first season was under 30 games so the sample size is quite small. He shows better in smaller sample sizes and fades over the long haul.
This season he is a 0.17 ppg player. He still has a lot of season left but this being his 3rd season he needs to do more than just show glimpses.

It gives me no pleasure to state the obvious here....Jesse is closer to being a bust than he is to being a top 6 NHL player.
Its go time for Jesse and he has a LONG ways to go and a LOT to prove IMO.

Your response does not take into account the players' ages relative to Puljujarvi. I cited seasons from draft, not seasons from rookie debut. Further, centre being "more difficult" doesn't have any impact on whether a player breaks out or not. Granlund got moved from centre. He still broke out eventually.

I would suggest that you flat out ignore whatever statistics you glean under McLellan. If you choose not to, then you're deliberately evaluating a player's potential based upon a coach who actively stunted his ability to reach that potential.

Edit: just saw @Aerrol covered this.

 

[Panda Bear]

He doesn't have the talent level to do that in the NHL.

You need to be like a McDavid, MacKinnon, Seguin, Barzal, Marner, Gaudreau type wizard with the puck to play that type of game OR a relentless Taylor Hall, Jamie Benn type.

He needs to find a way to utilize his shot, because it probably is his best pro hockey attribute.

He cannot dangle or elude NHL level defenders, they just push him off the puck or keep him easily to the outside. If you want to play the whole "puck on my stick all the time!" game, you need to be able to make NHL level defenders look stupid and he's nowhere close to that.

He needs to understand that his game in the NHL is more of a complimentary type of thing and be OK with that. Maybe once he masters that then he can think about stick handling past Drew Doughty or something and playing that style of game, but right now he's no where close to that.

Puljujarvi has a huge frame to go with big speed and a good motor. I think he has the potential to be the relentless type.

 

[GameChanger]

Sorry for copying @GameChanger's habit of multiple posts in a row, but I wanted to split these up for easier quoting:

That sounds like a pretty clear indirect way to say you don't really like this style I'll try not to overuse that but I thought it's got its upsides compared to writing very long posts with everything summed up. I personally like when others do this because it's easier to use the like function to show what I agree with, but I understand some people probably skip when there are several messages from me in a row.

I use time by the computer quite infrequently so I tend to write my messages in clumps. It's also a bit of a lazy way because at least in my system the multi-quote doesn't work perfectly and the only way to use it is through "more options".

 

[GameChanger]

Finally had time to see that Puljujärvi goal flick.

I did remember wrong and only 2 were luckies at start of the last season.(did not look pass goal 6)

I was little disturbed about my false memory, so I actually had to contact my ex work buddies why we laught so mutch to those goals.

Well. Reason was that Pulju was quite lost in many games and did not actually find good spots to be open etc. , and then he just scored.

Just watch the rest of the video, it's only 5 more minutes and less if you skip the replays. Which two of the 6 first were lucky ones? The 4th was clear, but tell me what the other one was?

1st: a good shot from Kurri's spot
2nd: a nice one-timer from Strome's feed
3nd: a good rebound
4th: lucky bounce
5th: a good rebound
6th: good rush+double rebound in

You and your friends laughing at Pulju confirms what I believe are your reasons for your agenda against Pulju. As does your lack of interest to watch his videos for five more minutes.

Pulju played his best hockey at the beginning of last season when he was scoring. There's plenty of things to support this, including the messages here, media articles, EJ player grades and even TM's quotes. His confidence masked most issues at that time and whaetever you feel his game wasn't anything like laughable. The end of the season was offensively quiet, but at that time he wasn't really scoring goals anymore so it doesn't apply with your timeframe.