Player Discussion Jesse Puljujarvi Discussion Part 4 [UPD: Nov 24th Recalled]

[KamiJ]

Koivu was a 0.33 ppg player in his first season and doubled that in his next season. He never looked back from there. Also he is a centre...so is Kesler, Schenn and Couturier.
Wheeler blows the doors off of Jesse stats...not a good comparable. He was never less than a 0.45ppg player.
Pacioretty was a 0.65 ppg player in his 3rd season.
Kreider was a 0.56 ppg player in his 2nd season.
Mikaels Granlund was a 0.65 ppg player in his 2nd season.
Schwartz was a 0.70 ppg player in (essentially) his 2nd season.

One really really important factor is player's age. Saku Koivu was in his 20s when he started his NHL career. Mikael Granlund was in his 20s when he started his NHL career. Blake Wheeler was in his 20s when he started his NHL career. Max Paciocretty was way above 20s during his 3rd season in NHL. Jesse Puljujärvi turned 20 last May.

 

[GameChanger]

One really really important factor is player's age. Saku Koivu was in his 20s when he started his NHL career. Mikael Granlund was in his 20s when he started his NHL career. Blake Wheeler was in his 20s when he started his NHL career. Max Paciocretty was way above 20s during his 3rd season in NHL. Jesse Puljujärvi turned 20 last May.

Teuvo Teräväinen played 34 games (4+5=9) in his 3rd year, though he scored 10 points in 18 playoff games. The next two seasons after that brought 13+22=35 (78 games) and 15+27=42 (81 games).

Last season his production took another step and he scored 23+41=64 and now he's not too far from a ppg rate.

 

[Perratrooper]

What's Pj's biggest draw back? Is his hockey IQ below average?

 

[Panda Bear]

What's Pj's biggest draw back? Is his hockey IQ below average?

His hockey IQ is quite good, actually. He doesn't find soft spots to get off shots particularly well yet, but he's a very aware passer, has great angles on his forecheck, and takes up good defensive positions.

As for his biggest weakness? I'm not sure, really.

I can tell you that McLellan handled his development very, very poorly.

 

[guymez]

Your response does not take into account the players' ages relative to Puljujarvi. I cited seasons from draft, not seasons from rookie debut. Further, centre being "more difficult" doesn't have any impact on whether a player breaks out or not. Granlund got moved from centre. He still broke out eventually.

I would suggest that you flat out ignore whatever statistics you glean under McLellan. If you choose not to, then you're deliberately evaluating a player's potential based upon a coach who actively stunted his ability to reach that potential.

Edit: just saw @Aerrol covered this.

This post is in response to @Aerrol, @GameChanger and @KamiJ as well. No hard feelings interned at all.
My last post was hardly nitpicking...it was factual and relevant. That tends to rub people the wrong way when they are so invested emotionally into a player like Jesse and it doesnt fit their narritive.
This thread for the most part is fueled by that.

Well...I just want to make something clear here. I am not interested in a polarized debate regarding Jesse based on emotion. Too many posters here just jump all over any post that triues to bring realism and honesty to this discussion which turns it into a Pro Jesse / Anti Jesse discussion. I dont see it that way. Some posters are just trying to bait and I am not one of those.
I am just trying to look at facts and realistic expectations.

So I agree that age matters. I think you would agree that Centres are not valid comparables as well.

So with that in mind lets look at age and what players were doing at approx 20 years old to see which players from your list were valid comparables.....

Schwartz....0.70 ppg
Wheeler came out of college at 22 years old. 1st season he was a 0.55 ppg player
Kreider entered the NHL at 21 years old and his aggregate ppg for the equivalent of his 1sr season was 0.45.
Granlunds 1st season was at 21 years old and his aggregate ppg for the equivalent of his 1sr season was 0.55

The only player who is remotely close to being a comparable is Pacioretty but he didnt start in the NHL until he was 20 years old.

So if age is the most important element in your criteria then every player you posted simply isnt a valid comparable.

As for your take on McLellan...I dont understand you you think that your subjective take on Jesse's time under TMac makes that irrelevant. Doesnt make a lick of sense to me.
The reality is that Hitch isnt deploying Jesse any differently than TMac did.

So I get that you and others (myself included) want Jesse to succeed you cant just throw out factual information because it doesnt fit your narrative.

 

[Aerrol]

EDITED FOR QUOTE CLARITY

This post is in response to @Aerrol and @GameChanger as well. My last post was hardly nitpicking...it was factual and relevant. That tends to rub people the wrong way when they are so invested emotionally into a player like Jesse and it doesnt fit their narritive.
This thread for the most part is fueled by that.

Well...I just want to make something clear here. I am not interested in a polarized debate regarding Jesse based on emotion. Too many posters here just jump all over any post that triues to bring realism and honesty to this discussion which turns it into a Pro Jesse / Anti Jesse discussion. I dont see it that way.
I am just trying to look at facts and realistic expectations.

What? Who is throwing out factual information? Yet again, I stress that you really need to stop with the 'emotional investment' nonsense, it does literally nothing but inflame the debate and make you look like you enjoy taking smug cheap shots, which I know you don't (or I hope ).

You critiqued his examples by citing stats that ignored CRUCIAL context, so you got called out on it. If anything imo the deeper dig supports that Jesse has time to figure it out and become a star. And I'll repeat, yet again, Jesse obviously has lots of ground to cover to get there.

As for your take on McLellan...I dont understand you you think that your subjective take on Jesse's time under TMac makes that irrelevant. Doesnt make a lick of sense to me.
The reality is that Hitch isnt deploying Jesse any differently than TMac did.

So I get that you and others (myself included) want Jesse to succeed you cant just throw out factual information because it doesnt fit your narrative.

And lol Hitch isn't using Jesse differently? Are you kidding me? He started by putting him on the second line and hasn't sat him for a whole game yet. How on earth can you say that's not different? Seems to me that you're being, what was it, emotionally invested, in defending McLellan's usage of Puljujarvi .

 

[HockeyHistorian]

I was also an early fan of Granlund, but I'm a bit surprised that you find him so disappointing. I've been thrilled to see him overcome his meh (at the NHL level) skating to turn into a legitimate offensive threat at this level. What does he not do now that you miss so much? The dekes? He still pulls those off with regularity. The biggest change IMO is he can't carry the puck as much because he just can't fly around people at this level. In that sense I suppose Pulju might be on a similar path in that while he skates very well, his puck handling might never be there to pull off these rushes every game.

I just think he lost some of the creativity, flair and style he had in Europe. Now he is much more of a grinder with high skill.

I value creativity very highly, hockey, like all sports, is a form of entertainment and creativity entertains me. I like to be surprised - and Pulju is a highly surprising player.

I tend to like players who do stuff that others wouldn't think. One of the side effects of my condition is that I am maybe the only remaining fan and apologist of Ville Leino (as a player, not as an entrepreneur).

 

[BullLund]

His hockey IQ is quite good, actually. He doesn't find soft spots to get off shots particularly well yet, but he's a very aware passer, has great angles on his forecheck, and takes up good defensive positions.

As for his biggest weakness? I'm not sure, really.

I can tell you that McLellan handled his development very, very poorly.

I think his lack of English has been his biggest weakness.

Can imagine that it's a bit difficult to coordinate and plan things out with your teammates when you don't have the means to communicate.

 

[TopShelfGloveSide]

His hockey IQ is quite good, actually. He doesn't find soft spots to get off shots particularly well yet, but he's a very aware passer, has great angles on his forecheck, and takes up good defensive positions.

As for his biggest weakness? I'm not sure, really.

I can tell you that McLellan handled his development very, very poorly.

If he was a very aware passer he would have more than one assist no? I do like his forecheck and defense though.

 

[guymez]

What? Who is throwing out factual information? Yet again, I stress that you really need to stop with the 'emotional investment' nonsense, it does literally nothing but inflame the debate and make you look like you enjoy taking smug cheap shots, which I know you don't (or I hope ).

You critiqued his examples by citing stats that ignored CRUCIAL context, so you got called out on it. If anything imo the deeper dig supports that Jesse has time to figure it out and become a star. And I'll repeat, yet again, Jesse obviously has lots of ground to cover to get there.

Sorry but this is flat out wrong. My post completely details why the examples are not valid. Why dont you show me where my post was incorrect?
I have to be honest I am actually a little surprised at this response if in fact you actually read my post. You completely missed the mark which supports my contention that you are not looking at the actual content of a post but reacting to what you think it says.

If I am wrong about this then show me which part of my post was off the mark.

 

[Aerrol]

I just think he lost some of the creativity, flair and style he had in Europe. Now he is much more of a grinder with high skill.

I value creativity very highly, hockey, like all sports, is a form of entertainment and creativity entertains me. I like to be surprised - and Pulju is a highly surprising player.

I tend to like players who do stuff that others wouldn't think. One of the side effects of my condition is that I am maybe the only remaining fan and apologist of Ville Leino (as a player, not as an entrepreneur).

Hahahahaha, I get this completely. I loved Omark (sue me >_>) and was salivating at what Schremp's hands could do on NHL ice. I always follow creative prospects too.

That said, I feel like you're being a bit harsh on Granlund today. I still love watching him, he tries some pretty cheeky moves still - passes between the legs, off boards etc. He just doesn't deke as much because he's realized he needs to pass more at this level instead of carry it himself.

OK, no more off topic haha.

 

[TopShelfGloveSide]

I think his lack of English has been his biggest weakness.

Can imagine that it's a bit difficult to coordinate and plan things out with your teammates when you don't have the means to communicate.

I’m actually surprised how slow he is learning English. Didn’t they get him an English teacher?

 

[Hopelesslucicfan]

If he was a very aware passer he would have more than one assist no? I do like his forecheck and defense though.

I think he's a very aware passer, but hasn't been playing with people who capitalize very well (by which I mean everyone outside McDavid).

He's great at finding seams to get the puck on net or out front to an area where someone should be after he rushes in on the forecheck.

Personally I think his biggest weakness is confidence. His shot is fantastic, his skating is above average, his forechecking abilities are top notch, and he's not terrible at defending either.


However this is a kid who spent the last few seasons being played 10 minutes on a good night, and riding the pine every time he turned the puck over. I think this leads to him panicking that he's going to make the wrong play, when he needs to be able to remain calm and make plays without second guessing himself.


Young players need different development approaches, and JP could have flourished early under a coach who let him work through his growing pains imo, but Todd was more of a negative reinforcement coach, which may work for some, but that's becoming pretty rare in this day and age.

 

[tellermine]

What's Pj's biggest draw back? Is his hockey IQ below average?

Havent seen his performance at Hitch era but before that:

He has problems to get open and has tendency to do things at the wrong time.
Also he is notoriosly famous at being outside of the game.

His puck control can be bad and he can lose it even without pressure.

Fumbling, fanning shots. Also his shot ist not as good as people take from highlightreels, he misses a alot. Even puck.

Not using his body in boards. Almost like he is acting boardplay. To late, poking with one hand etc. .

Still making rookie turnovers.

He has good top speed but acceleration and agility not so.

Those were clear and big problems.

Good:

He has a good defence and use of the stick as a checker. (Not in boards)

Can pass well.

Top speed is good.

 

[tellermine]

Just watch the rest of the video, it's only 5 more minutes and less if you skip the replays. Which two of the 6 first were lucky ones? The 4th was clear, but tell me what the other one was?

1st: a good shot from Kurri's spot
2nd: a nice one-timer from Strome's feed
3nd: a good rebound
4th: lucky bounce
5th: a good rebound
6th: good rush+double rebound in

You and your friends laughing at Pulju confirms what I believe are your reasons for your agenda against Pulju. As does your lack of interest to watch his videos for five more minutes.

Pulju played his best hockey at the beginning of last season when he was scoring. There's plenty of things to support this, including the messages here, media articles, EJ player grades and even TM's quotes. His confidence masked most issues at that time and whaetever you feel his game wasn't anything like laughable. The end of the season was offensively quiet, but at that time he wasn't really scoring goals anymore so it doesn't apply with your timeframe.

Why cant you laugh without agenda?
Jesus. Strange people.

His best hockey was no were near perfect. And it got way worse.

 

[TopShelfGloveSide]

I think he's a very aware passer, but hasn't been playing with people who capitalize very well (by which I mean everyone outside McDavid).

He's great at finding seams to get the puck on net or out front to an area where someone should be after he rushes in on the forecheck.

Personally I think his biggest weakness is confidence. His shot is fantastic, his skating is above average, his forechecking abilities are top notch, and he's not terrible at defending either.


However this is a kid who spent the last few seasons being played 10 minutes on a good night, and riding the pine every time he turned the puck over. I think this leads to him panicking that he's going to make the wrong play, when he needs to be able to remain calm and make plays without second guessing himself.


Young players need different development approaches, and JP could have flourished early under a coach who let him work through his growing pains imo, but Todd was more of a negative reinforcement coach, which may work for some, but that's becoming pretty rare in this day and age.

So if you put JP with someone like Drai or Chiasson he would get assists?

 

[GameChanger]

Why cant you laugh without agenda?
Jesus. Strange people.

Of course it's possible to laugh without an agenda, why wouldn't it be. But it's possible and sometimes very likely these two are connected.

You finally admitted that you made up the five lucky goals (2 by skates, 2 by butt and 1 lucky reflection to him) stuff, but now you said 2 out of the first 6 were lucky. One was a clearly lucky bounce, but what was the 2nd one? I'm honestly curious about this.

I didn't want to be mean to you, but you were proven wrong and I hoped you could've accepted and handled that like a man afterwards.

 

[StoveTopStauffer]

What's Pj's biggest draw back? Is his hockey IQ below average?

He lacks an assertive personality. Like MPS he doesn't seem to have the capability of being mean. It would work extremely well with his size and skills to be that way on the ice.

 

[Bryanbryoil]

Ironic that he scores our only goal, one in which he looks like he's been taking notes from Chiasson and Hitch about getting open into a shooting lane and the **** continues to pile on. He also got some PK and PP time late. The coach is loving his game and TBH this coach's opinion trumps most of ours here because for once we have a coach that isn't a dud and is actually a very sharp individual and coach.

 

[Bryanbryoil]

He lacks an assertive personality. Like MPS he doesn't seem to have the capability of being mean. It would work extremely well with his size and skills to be that way on the ice.

He doesn't need to bowl over guys, he needs to out muscle and out battle guys and he has been much better in this regard of late. Confidence and experience in a top 6 role is what he's lacking the most. He's getting there.

 

[TopShelfGloveSide]

Ironic that he scores our only goal, one in which he looks like he's been taking notes from Chiasson and Hitch about getting open into a shooting lane and the **** continues to pile on. He also got some PK and PP time late. The coach is loving his game and TBH this coach's opinion trumps most of ours here because for once we have a coach that isn't a dud and is actually a very sharp individual and coach.

Scoring one goal (his 4thpoint OF THE YEAR) doesn’t make him clear from criticism. He looked better though, hope to see that shot on the #1 PP unit next game.

 

[agent082]

 

[tellermine]

Of course it's possible to laugh without an agenda, why wouldn't it be. But it's possible and sometimes very likely these two are connected.

You finally admitted that you made up the five lucky goals (2 by skates, 2 by butt and 1 lucky reflection to him) stuff, but now you said 2 out of the first 6 were lucky. One was a clearly lucky bounce, but what was the 2nd one? I'm honestly curious about this.

I didn't want to be mean to you, but you were proven wrong and I hoped you could've accepted and handled that like a man afterwards.

My memory was proven wrong yes. Maby there is Pulujärvi's funniest goals clip etc. .
But when I can I ll find you that second luckky one.

As I said earlier I have actually spoken with Puljujärvi and I like him.
But he is not that good prospect as his position at draft was. Also people seem to miss mutch of his wrong positioning etc. or and forget it if he shoota once to the net.
That said I hope ge delivers as he is a good kid and Oilers need him atleast 25 goal scorer.

 

[Hopelesslucicfan]

So if you put JP with someone like Drai or Chiasson he would get assists?

Obviously you can't be sure, but I'd like his chances playing 16 minutes a game with someone like that, yeah.

 

[tellermine]

He lacks an assertive personality. Like MPS he doesn't seem to have the capability of being mean. It would work extremely well with his size and skills to be that way on the ice.

This is true. In boards he is just way to nice...