Prospect Info: Jesperi Kotkaniemi: The Eagle has landed (Made the team!)

[417]

I disagree its a completely random event with injuries. A smaller ice with more physical forwards increases the chances of injuries. I worry about his upper body and the possible shoulder or rib injury. Injuries happen in any league yes but an 18 year old playing in NA who has not filled into his body yet? Pretty sure if we do play him in NA (NHL or AHL) and he does get hurt, people will be all over this

Like I said, I won't be upset with whatever decision they make but my #1 choice is a patient approach and back to Finland.

Do you know this for a fact?

What's the rate of increase on smaller ice vs bigger ice?

Is his risk of injury lessened if he plays this year in Finland and comes back next year weighing 195lbs instead of 185lbs?

Is the North American ice surface going to increase next year???

This whole Kotkaniemi situation is analysis by paralysis.

He won his spot, he's looked like one of our best players, he's starting the year...if things change, they'll send him back

That's end of story for me.

He was not picked 3rd overall at random and it is not unheard of for 18yr old kids, ALL of which are underdeveloped physically, to start out in the NHL.

 

[Habs Halifax]

Do you know this for a fact?

What's the rate of increase on smaller ice vs bigger ice?

Is his risk of injury lessened if he plays this year in Finland and comes back next year weighing 195lbs instead of 185lbs?

Is the North American ice surface going to increase next year???

This whole Kotkaniemi situation is analysis by paralysis.

He won his spot, he's looked like one of our best players, he's starting the year...if things change, they'll send him back

That's end of story for me.

He was not picked 3rd overall at random and it is not unheard of for 18yr old kids, ALL of which are underdeveloped physically, to start out in the NHL.

No, I don't know this as a fact. It's my opinion and I told you my reasons to support it. Smaller ice and more physical players. Bigger ice and a different game with more time and space. A guy who likes to hit will have an easier time in NA vs Finland.

I'm fully away he can also get hurt in Finland. Personally, I think the probably is less. I value a healthy development year vs a development year where he plays with nagging injuries cause it's more of a physical game.

 

[417]

No, I don't know this as a fact. It's my opinion and I told you my reasons to support it. Smaller ice and more physical players. Bigger ice and a different game with more time and space. A guy who likes to hit will have an easier time in NA vs Finland.

I'm fully away he can also get hurt in Finland. Personally, I think the probably is less.

That's fine...I just don't think there's any basis to this reasoning.

It's like saying Kotkaniemi coming to North America from Finland, increases the likelihood that he's going to get mugged.

 

[Habs Halifax]

That's fine...I just don't think there's any basis to this reasoning.

It's like saying Kotkaniemi coming to North America from Finland, increases the likelihood that he's going to get mugged.

No, it's not the same. Come on man. Kotkaniemi himself said the game is faster and there is less time and space (that is a fact for you). It's weird how you don't acknowledge that a player who likes to hit will have an easier time in NA vs in Europe.

 

[417]

No, it's not the same. Come on man. Kotkaniemi himself said the game is faster and there is less time and space (that is a fact for you).

Yes this is is a fact - but what's not a fact is that this correlates to more injuries.

It's weird how you don't acknowledge that a player who likes to hit will have an easier time in NA vs in Europe.

I don't know what this has to do with this argument.

Yes, obviously, a player who likes to hit will have an easier time on smaller rink. I'm not quite sure why this is relevant.

Like, I get what you're trying to say...that a more physical league will = more physical confrontations, which CAN increase the likelihood of injuries.

But this risk will always exist for him...whether he plays at 18 or 19 or 20 or 21 or 35.

 

[Habs Halifax]

I don't know what this has to do with this argument.

Yes, obviously, a player who likes to hit will have an easier time on smaller rink. I'm not quite sure why this is relevant.

Well, don't you think that increases the chances of a upper body injury for a 18 year old kid playing against men in a smaller rink over a full season?

 

[Binary Code]

Some of you are really using urban legends to justify sending Kotkaniemi back to Finland ...

 

[417]

Well, don't you think that increases the chances of a upper body injury for a 18 year old kid playing against men in a smaller rink over a full season?

The risk or chance of that happening is the same if he comes over at 19yrs old...even if he's 5 or lbs heavier.

Unless you're sending him back to Finland to participate in some secret experience where his skeleton will be reinforced with indestructible metal adamantium a la Wolverine.

An injury to his upper body could happen next year or any other year.

 

[Habs Halifax]

The risk or chance of that happening is the same if he comes over at 19yrs old...even if he's 5 or lbs heavier.

I think he will have more time to add some muscle in Finland. Poehling added a bit of weight since he was drafted and it was more than 5 lbs. If he is going to go back to Finland and only gain 5 lbs (+/-), I would call that a disappointment. I think 10 or 15 lbs of muscle and focus of bulking up the upper body would make him a much stronger player and less likely he gets a upper body injury next year.

But hey, you can be 100% right. He plays AHL/NHL this year and no injuries. I just looking at the potential and taking a patient approach with his development. I didn't like that Galchenyuk made our team as a 18 year old and I prefer Kotkaniemi to play Finland. He didn't even play center last year. At least let him play center for a full year

 

[417]

Some of you are really using urban legends to justify sending Kotkaniemi back to Finland ...

I mean...yeah, he can get blasted Wednesday night and blow out his shoulder.

Just like he can score a hat trick and be named 1st star of the game.

Can't always use extremes.

 

[417]

I think he will have more time to add some muscle in Finland. Poehling added a bit of weight since he was drafted and it was more than 5 lbs. If he is going to go back to Finland and only gain 5 lbs (+/-), I would call that a disappointment. I think 10 or 15 lbs of muscle and focus of bulking up the upper body would make him a much stronger player and less likely he gets a upper body injury next year.

Bulking up can also make him more susceptible to injuries as well...it's totally random.

But hey, you can be 100% right. He plays AHL/NHL this year and no injuries. I just looking at the potential and taking a patient approach with his development. I didn't like that Galchenyuk made our team as a 18 year old and I prefer Kotkaniemi to play Finland. He didn't even play center last year. At least let him play center for a full year

At this point, based on what he's shown so far

The patient approach is to take it week by week or even game by game and then re-assess.

He's earned that.

The biggest problem that surrounded Galchenyuk's tenure with the Habs is they never took off the "kid gloves", they were always sheltering him and protecting his ice time, and limiting the things he could do on the ice.

There's patient and there's also overly prudent.

 

[Binary Code]

I mean...yeah, he can get blasted Wednesday night and blow out his shoulder.

Just like he can score a hat trick and be named 1st star of the game.

Can't always use extremes.

What I don’t understand is how people think it’s a proven that Kotkaniemi will for sure develop better in Finland and will bust if he ends up making the team past his 9 games ... If the kid can play, let him play for f sake

 

[Habs Halifax]

Bulking up can also make him more susceptible to injuries as well...it's totally random.


At this point, based on what he's shown so far

The patient approach is to take it week by week or even game by game and then re-assess.

He's earned that.

We disagree on stronger players having less chance at injuries. It's not ramdom

As far as what he has earned? I know I would not want to be the one to tell him to his face he is going back to Finland. It's easy for me to say this but I am fully aware of how difficult of a decision the Habs have in front of them.

 

[Habs Halifax]

What I don’t understand is how people think it’s a proven that Kotkaniemi will for sure develop better in Finland and will bust if he ends up making the team past his 9 games ... If the kid can play, let him play for f sake

Who's saying he will bust if he plays past 9 games? If that person is out there, Lets gang together some Habs fans and jump him/her!

 

[417]

What I don’t understand is how people think it’s a proven that Kotkaniemi will for sure develop better in Finland and will bust if he ends up making the team past his 9 games ... If the kid can play, let him play for f sake

Without knowing anything about how they develop players in Assat either...that's also the part that gets me.

Send him back to Finland? OK...but does anyone know their history in terms of handling the development of NHL prospects?

 

[417]

We disagree on stronger players having less chance at injuries. It's not ramdom

As far as what he has earned? I know I would not want to be the one to tell him to his face he is going back to Finland. It's easy for me to say this but I am fully aware of how difficult of a decision the Habs have in front of them.

Oddly enough...I was having a conversation with a former CFL player who told me he didn't start getting recurring and nagging injuries until he started to put on bulk later on his his career. He felt he lost a lot of flexibility, agility and he was always straining his leg muscles.

Now, i'm not saying that it's the same with Kotkaniemi...but the theory that more bulk = less injuries is completely false.

 

[Mrb1p]

Do you know this for a fact?

What's the rate of increase on smaller ice vs bigger ice?

Is his risk of injury lessened if he plays this year in Finland and comes back next year weighing 195lbs instead of 185lbs?

Is the North American ice surface going to increase next year???

This whole Kotkaniemi situation is analysis by paralysis.

He won his spot, he's looked like one of our best players, he's starting the year...if things change, they'll send him back

That's end of story for me.

He was not picked 3rd overall at random and it is not unheard of for 18yr old kids, ALL of which are underdeveloped physically, to start out in the NHL.

Theres an average of 9 games missed per player in the NHL due to injuries.

More games+bigger players+faster players+careers in hockey, yeah, theres more injuries in the top league in the world than in lessers, just like theres more breakdown in F1 than in Nascar.

 

[Habs Halifax]

Oddly enough...I was having a conversation with a former CFL player who told me he didn't start getting recurring and nagging injuries until he started to put on bulk later on his his career. He felt he lost a lot of flexibility, agility and he was always straining his leg muscles.

Now, i'm not saying that it's the same with Kotkaniemi...but the theory that more bulk = less injuries is completely false.

There are many examples but I'll throw you mine. Poehling added muscle and extra weight and he himself said it helped him in his draft +1 year. He almost put up pt/game stats as a 18/19 year old. It comes down to your body and not all the weight should be added just one area. Kotkaniemi can add 10 lbs of muscle in his upper body and 5 lbs in his legs.

Also, skating and running are two different things.

 

[417]

There are many examples but I'll throw you mine. Poehling added muscle and extra weight and he himself said it helped him in his draft +1 year. He almost put up pt/game stats as a 18/19 year old. It comes down to your body and not all the weight should be added just one area. Kotkaniemi can add 10 lbs of muscle in his upper body and 5 lbs in his legs.

But i'm not debating whether or not adding bulk helps improve performance...we were talking about whether or not added bulk helps prevent injuries.

Also, skating and running are two different things.

Pretty sure they involve the same muscle groups

 

[Habs Halifax]

But i'm not debating whether or not adding bulk helps improve performance...we were talking about whether or not added bulk helps prevent injuries.

Pretty sure they involve the same muscle groups

Well, Kotkaniemi does not shy away from battling for pucks along the boards. More upper body strength will help prevent a shoulder injury.. especially the way he plays and the size of NHL players and how they finish checks these days. Ask Mete

And skating is different than running. Both use leg muscles yes. Adding extra muscle in your upper body will put extra pressure on your legs when you run. The idea here is to add muscle in proportion to your height and not just focus on one area only

 

[417]

Well, Kotkaniemi does not shy away from battling for pucks along the boards. More upper body strength will help prevent a shoulder injury.. especially the way he plays and the size of NHL players and how they finish checks these days. Ask Mete

And skating is different than running. Both use leg muscles yes. Adding extra muscle in your upper body will put extra pressure on your legs when you run. The idea here is to add muscle in proportion to your height and not just focus on one area only

I'm going to stop the back and forth on this, not because I don't respect your opinion, but we're pretty much turning around in circles.

But the bolded above is not true.

More strength/bulk does not = less injuries or even injury prevention.

 

[Habs]

Anyone remember how small the ice was at the Aud in Buffalo, or the old Boston Gardens? Really f***ed with players heads. I'm not sure if the small ice will matter to a rookie, and JK isn't smaller than Byron or Gallagher, or 3/4 of the team so... who knows.

 

[Tourist]

For most prospects, I'd recommend to take it slow let them spend time in minor leagues to master their craft, try new things and build confidence.

Kotkaniemi, however, is not like most prospects. He's a different animal, one we have not seen in Montreal in a very long time. He has a gift. The gift of elite hockey IQ. Just like with young kids with elite IQ at school, I think the best approach is to feed them challenges, so that their brain is always running at 100%. If you don't, they run the risk of getting somewhat bored which can in turn lead to less-than-optimal development. Kotkaniemi looked average against random rookies. Couple of weeks later he's put against legit NHL competition and he looks like a top player. Sure he used the rookie camp to get familiar with his new environment, but still I find that pretty telling.

Say he keeps playing the way he has for the first 9 games. How do you look at him in the eyes and tell him he needs to go back to a lower league? You tell him that he needs to put on some weight and work on his leg strength? He's not stupid, he'll clearly see that he's one of the best on the team and that he can absolutely hold his own in the league. He knows that some men in teenage bodies like Marner or P. Kane have no issues performing and avoiding injuries in the league. He knows that the Habs have world class training facilities that he could use to improve his fitness. He would absolutely think it's bull to send him back.

That's not to mention the rest of the team. How do you announce to the rest of the team that one of the best players is sent overseas to "grow into his frame". Sure the Habs on paper are not a very good team, but I don't doubt every member of the team wants to win games and wants help from management to win games. So the rest of the players would also think its complete bull to take away from them one of their best so that he can develop with his dad on a terrible team in another country.

If Kotkaniemi plays those 9 games at the level he's played so far at camp, I don't think it's realistic to send him elsewhere. It really is annoying that a year of his entry level contract would be burnt on a potentially "lost" season, but the signs would point to me that the NHL is the league he can develop the most in due to his supreme on ice intelligence.

 

[SOLR]

I'm going to stop the back and forth on this, not because I don't respect your opinion, but we're pretty much turning around in circles.

But the bolded above is not true.

More strength/bulk does not = less injuries or even injury prevention.

The science on this is clear, strength does absolutely not prevent injuries.
There is a fair bit of data, however, on strength being a contributor to healing. This would make sense as strength comes from an habit of destruction and reconstruction of the muscles. Stronger muscles = muscles with more immune cells ready to get to work.
Now, when it comes to 18 years olds....Hormones levels would play a majority role in any requirement for healing as it peak-testosterone.
So while one could argue that we would like our prospects to be stronger so they can heal their injuries better, this doesn't make sense when looking at hormone levels (testosterone is a nearly "magic" healer).

So, to conclude, there is no such thing as a scientific concern relative to injuries or injury prevention from being younger.
Any of your players can get injured. The best predictor for injury rates is IQ. <---- ie, if you are smart enough you don't put yourself in a situation where you will get hurt.
I suspect Jesperi is the highest IQ on the team by what I saw thus far (he's a highly deceptive playmaker, very hard to read + the way he progressed game after the game).

 

[SOLR]

For most prospects, I'd recommend to take it slow let them spend time in minor leagues to master their craft, try new things and build confidence.

Kotkaniemi, however, is not like most prospects. He's a different animal, one we have not seen in Montreal in a very long time. He has a gift. The gift of elite hockey IQ. Just like with young kids with elite IQ at school, I think the best approach is to feed them challenges, so that their brain is always running at 100%. If you don't, they run the risk of getting somewhat bored which can in turn lead to less-than-optimal development. Kotkaniemi looked average against random rookies. Couple of weeks later he's put against legit NHL competition and he looks like a top player. Sure he used the rookie camp to get familiar with his new environment, but still I find that pretty telling.

Ok let's stop this farce.
There is no such thing as "hockey IQ" (it's just dumb political correctness to say "it's a smart person when it comes to hockey").
There are high and lows IQ.
High IQ at school, would learn and be good at hockey as well. It's perfectly scalable and transferable. Not all high IQ person are however willing and able (athletic genetics of their cardio vascular and muscular systems) to put their body in the grinder.

Jonathan Drouin vs. McDavid ... McDavid is probably 20 IQ points higher. Same or similar athletic genetics...