Prospect Info: Jesperi Kotkaniemi: The Eagle has landed (Made the team!)

[Miller Time]

There's no upside to him playing in the NHL as a green 18 year old. Why do some teams keep really high 18 year old draft picks, or people who completely surprise at camps? Because they are likely going back to junior, which may be too low of a level.

Kotka would be going back to a men's league that is one of the better ones in the world. Let him progress on his own timetable. Like I said - there's not much upside to keeping him here this season.

Exactly... this is what some people seem unwilling or incapable of processing.

It's a simple question of risk/reward. There is minimal to no upside of him playing in the NHL this year, and there is a boat load of downside and additional risk...

Him playing another year (or even 2) in the Finnish elite league has virtually no downside. What upside is there for him playing in the NHL?

 

[Miller Time]

Peterson does make many valid points, but right now he is a cult figure to his often distasteful fanbase which makes him irritating. It's very hard to be neutral to him when so many people worship him like a God. He makes some mistakes, and they annoy me. But it may be the case that I would let them slide if not for his annoying and rabid fanbase. It is also the case that he is, unintentionally or otherwise, catering to their problematic side and indulging it.

just another in a long list of opportunists... what's sad is that he's clearly intelligent enough to recognize the negative influence he's having yet his ever growing bank account appears sufficient justification to rationalize his way to willful ignorance. worst kind of public intellectual

 

[dackelljuneaubulis02]

Peterson does make many valid points, but right now he is a cult figure to his often distasteful fanbase which makes him irritating. It's very hard to be neutral to him when so many people worship him like a God. He makes some mistakes, and they annoy me. But it may be the case that I would let them slide if not for his annoying and rabid fanbase, and just sit back and enjoy his insights. It is also the case that he is, unintentionally or otherwise, catering to their problematic side and indulging it.

I think you've got a good point. I'm a big fan but yes the fan base can be a bit much.

I don't think he's catering to his fans problematic side, consciously or unconsciously. His book tour is like 98% void of anything divisive. I think they'll have like one cursory swipe at the 'bloody post-modernists' but I don't see any rabble rousing. It's really just self-help with pop intellectual underpinnings.

I do have my worries about him though that I feel like he always seems to do better with.

 

[dackelljuneaubulis02]

just another in a long list of opportunists... what's sad is that he's clearly intelligent enough to recognize the negative influence he's having yet his ever growing bank account appears sufficient justification to rationalize his way to willful ignorance. worst kind of public intellectual

what specifically is he ignorant about and what's his negative influence?

I really believe he's helped a lot of people in bleak times. I wasn't in a particularly bad spot but I feel like I have a better commitment to life and being in general.

I mean in the age of Trump, a public intellectual advocating for more conservative or traditional stances can easily be seen as problematic and some of his stances I really do get why people think that.

I think people dismiss him way too readily even though I think he's a fairly weak 'Philosopher' he still has myriads of great insights.

 

[SOLR]

Peterson does make many valid points, but right now he is a cult figure to his often distasteful fanbase which makes him irritating. It's very hard to be neutral to him when so many people worship him like a God. He makes some mistakes, and they annoy me. But it may be the case that I would let them slide if not for his annoying and rabid fanbase, and just sit back and enjoy his insights. It is also the case that he is, unintentionally or otherwise, catering to their problematic side and indulging it.

I'm clearly not a fan of the person, the ideas are sound, but I do think there is some aggression somewhere in his mind. And the emotional connection generated by this aggressive stance when mixed with his fan-base's emotions, is a bit concerning. Sam Harris is an example of someone carrying less aggression (not that I'm a fan either).

BUT, I think that a professor publishing his lectures on Youtube is important work. Pushing more professors to do the same, by making one economically successful is equally important.

 

[Andrei79]

Happy to see the staff give him a top 6 role.

That's what I want if he stays. 2nd line responsibilities with good wingers like Domi, Drouin or Gallagher.

This guy can dish it and he can shoot it, too. Even if I'd rather have this team take the patient approach with all its players, if he's staying I hope they maximize what he can do offensively, as defensively he'll get good instructions imo. A really ideal scenario would have him produce closer to Hischier/Monahan than Patrick. If he does it, he'll pretty much be on path to become a 1st line C.

 

[Frank Drebin]

Exactly... this is what some people seem unwilling or incapable of processing.

It's a simple question of risk/reward. There is minimal to no upside of him playing in the NHL this year, and there is a boat load of downside and additional risk...

Him playing another year (or even 2) in the Finnish elite league has virtually no downside. What upside is there for him playing in the NHL?

What is your reasoning in that there is no upside in the NHL but only upside in a lesser league?

To take it to the very far extreme - would Connor McDavid have benefited from playing a year in a lesser league in 2o15-16?

At the moment, Kotka looks ready to play in the NHL. Why would we hold him back instead of watching and monitoring his progress?

 

[Andrei79]

What is your reasoning in that there is no upside in the NHL but only upside in a lesser league?

To take it to the very far extreme - would Connor McDavid have benefited from playing a year in a lesser league in 2o15-16?

At the moment, Kotka looks ready to play in the NHL. Why would we hold him back instead of watching and monitoring his progress?

McDavid had nothing left to work on.

 

[Frank Drebin]

McDavid had nothing left to work on.

At the moment, it doesn't look like Kotka is being rushed though? We see players develop and improve all the time in the NHL. It doesn't always have to be in an inferior league.

 

[Andrei79]

The science on this is clear, strength does absolutely not prevent injuries.
There is a fair bit of data, however, on strength being a contributor to healing. This would make sense as strength comes from an habit of destruction and reconstruction of the muscles. Stronger muscles = muscles with more immune cells ready to get to work.
Now, when it comes to 18 years olds....Hormones levels would play a majority role in any requirement for healing as it peak-testosterone.
So while one could argue that we would like our prospects to be stronger so they can heal their injuries better, this doesn't make sense when looking at hormone levels (testosterone is a nearly "magic" healer).

So, to conclude, there is no such thing as a scientific concern relative to injuries or injury prevention from being younger.
Any of your players can get injured. The best predictor for injury rates is IQ. <---- ie, if you are smart enough you don't put yourself in a situation where you will get hurt.
I suspect Jesperi is the highest IQ on the team by what I saw thus far (he's a highly deceptive playmaker, very hard to read + the way he progressed game after the game).

Citation needed.

This goes in complete contradiction with low experience, fitness level and body composition being risk factors for injuries.

 

[Andrei79]

At the moment, it doesn't look like Kotka is being rushed though? We see players develop and improve all the time in the NHL. It doesn't always have to be in an inferior league.

I doesn't, but it's a matter of risk/benefit here. He needs further work on skating/mass. Obviously, you cant be too rigid in anything. If Kotka keeps improving to the point he's clearly solidified himself in his 9 games, it's a tough sell to send him back.

 

[Frank Drebin]

I doesn't, but it's a matter of risk/benefit here. Obviously, you cant be too rigid in anything. If Kotka keeps improving to the point he's clearly solidified himself in his 9 games, it's a tough sell to send him back.

Yeah, I think you'd have to rack your brain to find a kid who was clearly ready for the NHL but their parent team sent them down because they wanted them to develop in a lesser league. Most of the time they're sent down because they aren't ready for the show. If Kotka looks like he's not ready, I'm sure he'll be sent down.

 

[FloJack]

Peterson is definitely not the awful human being he's portrayed as. His utter disdain for the 'radical' left (though he allows their humanity on many occasions) and collectivists is supplemented by an incredible amount of compassion for the individual which I find genuine.

He often talks about how dismal and awful the literature on IQ is. He doesn't cite its findings with any particular amount of glee. It seems like it could use some fine tuning maybe or more nuance about it's biases but ultimately it's a pretty good predictor of future 'success'. I don't think you can just ignore IQ though I'm sure it could be improved or refined.

Oh gawd, you too. Well, it was nice knowing you.

 

[ProspectsSTC]

Oh gawd, you too. Well, it was nice knowing you.

SO KOTKANIEMI - AND THAT'S THE BLOODY THING ABOUT KOTKANIEMI - HE REPRESENTS TALENT, IN FACT, HE'S AN AGENT OF TALENT, AND IN CONTRAST, WE HAVE BERGEVIN, WHO REPRESENTS ATTITUDE, ROUGHLY SPEAKING. BUT BERGEVIN, IN HIS BITTER RESENTMENT, IN HIS-HIS POSTMODERN CULTURAL MARXIST IDEOLOGY, HE TRIES TO TAME THE TALENT - AND THAT'S A BAD IDEA MAN, IT'S LIKE-IT'S LIKE IF YOU TRIED TAMING FIRE, IT'S JUST GOING TO LEAVE YOU BURNT. BUT BERGEVIN, HE TRIES ANYWAY, MOTIVATED BY A LUST FOR POWER - AND IT'S LIKE - GOD ITS SO SAD - ITS LIKE YOU'RE NOT A GOOD GM! YOU'RE NOT A GOOD GM, AND NO POSTMODERN RATIONALIZATION WILL CHANGE THAT. THE EVIDENCE IS CLEAR. THE SCIENTIFIC LITERATURE IS EXPLICIT ON THIS MATTER. AND SPEAKING OF TAMING TALENT - WHAT HAPPENS BY THE END OF BERGEVIN'S 'EXPERIMENT'? THE TALENT IS NOT TAMED, QUITE THE OPPOSITE, IT'S ACTUALLY IMPROVING. AND THIS DEMONSTRATES EXACTLY WHAT HAPPENED IN THE 90S. AND IT'S LIKE SOLZHENITSYN WRITES IN THE GULAG ARCHIPELAGO - REJEAN HOULE ATTEMPTED TO QUELL TALENT, BUT IN DOING SO HE MERELY FUELED IT. AND WELL ACTUALLY, HE DID QUITE A BIT MORE. YOU CAN'T PRETEND TO BE A GOOD GM IF YOU'RE NOT. WE TRIED THAT EXPERIMENT IN THE THE 90S, AND IT WAS A BAD IDEA MAN! AND IT. IS. NOT. A. ROUTE. YOU. WANT. TO. GO. DOWN.

(I actually quite enjoy a lot of Peterson's lectures and discussions, but he certainly has a tendency to go down the marxist rabbithole)

 

[tooji]

wew this thread has gone off the rails

anywho, ill put 5 bucks on Kotkaniemi staying the whole season, and putting up almost 0.5 ppg

 

[habergeon]

What is your reasoning in that there is no upside in the NHL but only upside in a lesser league?

To take it to the very far extreme - would Connor McDavid have benefited from playing a year in a lesser league in 2o15-16?

At the moment, Kotka looks ready to play in the NHL. Why would we hold him back instead of watching and monitoring his progress?

I was firmly in the "send him back to Finland" camp, but Kotka has won me over and definitely deserves a chance to play here.

My big reason for sending him back home had more to do with learning to lead a team and "be the man" for lack of a better word. Let him dominate against men, play top line minutes, pp, pk, play world junior and do the same. But if he's ready NOW? Then I'm ok with him staying in the NHL.

Playing with domi and drouin, I think this kid is going to turn some heads,

 

[admiralcadillac]

wew this thread has gone off the rails

anywho, ill put 5 bucks on Kotkaniemi staying the whole season, and putting up almost 0.5 ppg

I was firmly in the "send him back to Finland" camp, but Kotka has won me over and definitely deserves a chance to play here.

My big reason for sending him back home had more to do with learning to lead a team and "be the man" for lack of a better word. Let him dominate against men, play top line minutes, pp, pk, play world junior and do the same. But if he's ready NOW? Then I'm ok with him staying in the NHL.

Playing with domi and drouin, I think this kid is going to turn some heads,

I'd bet you 5 he gets over .5 ppg.

He can still play for the WJ team, doubt the habs will be in the playoff race if he sticks around for the season so they'll probably let him.

My guess is he'll be tested for 9 games then 40, he'll get to go to the wjc as well.

 

[Runner77]

Kotkaniemi, Suzuki, and Poehling: A three-headed monster emerging from the prospect pool

C'mon, that's written by a fan (olifisher96: Fan of the Montreal Canadiens, from England!)

Anyone here could have written that piece and it would have been shot down.

Suzuki isn't even projected to be used as a full time center in OS and some say he may never become a center.

And Poehling projects as a 3C.

You want to talk about a "three-headed monster" -- then let's make sure all three candidates are true first line centers. Now, that's a monster.

This guy's theory is bunk.

 

[Nedved]

Hey @SOLR , get Jordan Peterson the **** out of this thread please and thank you.

Don’t care what point you’re trying to prove, using that sickening, sexist hate-monger is not going to help any cause.

show me where he's sexist and a hate-monger? And I will agree or disagree, but I find it hard to believe he's sexist. Does he think men are the superior sex?

 

[admiralcadillac]

Hey @SOLR , get Jordan Peterson the **** out of this thread please and thank you.

Don’t care what point you’re trying to prove, using that sickening, sexist hate-monger is not going to help any cause.

I think a very solid piece of advice is that if you want something to disappear, don't revert to severe name-calling. You're attracting more conversation by displaying your position.

C'mon, that's written by a fan (olifisher96: Fan of the Montreal Canadiens, from England!)

Anyone here could have written that piece and it would have been shot down.

Suzuki isn't even projected to be used as a full time center in OS and some say he may never become a center.

And Poehling projects as a 3C.

You want to talk about a "three-headed monster" -- then let's make sure all three candidates are true first line centers. Now, that's a monster.

This guy's theory is bunk.

One position is optimistic, the other one pessimistic. I don't think either theory is bunk.

Have you seen Poehling play this year?

Wait and see on Suzuki, he looked good.

 

[Tyson]

I will closely watch JK for the next 9 games. That’s the first hurdle

 

[dackelljuneaubulis02]

SO KOTKANIEMI - AND THAT'S THE BLOODY THING ABOUT KOTKANIEMI - HE REPRESENTS TALENT, IN FACT, HE'S AN AGENT OF TALENT, AND IN CONTRAST, WE HAVE BERGEVIN, WHO REPRESENTS ATTITUDE, ROUGHLY SPEAKING. BUT BERGEVIN, IN HIS BITTER RESENTMENT, IN HIS-HIS POSTMODERN CULTURAL MARXIST IDEOLOGY, HE TRIES TO TAME THE TALENT - AND THAT'S A BAD IDEA MAN, IT'S LIKE-IT'S LIKE IF YOU TRIED TAMING FIRE, IT'S JUST GOING TO LEAVE YOU BURNT. BUT BERGEVIN, HE TRIES ANYWAY, MOTIVATED BY A LUST FOR POWER - AND IT'S LIKE - GOD ITS SO SAD - ITS LIKE YOU'RE NOT A GOOD GM! YOU'RE NOT A GOOD GM, AND NO POSTMODERN RATIONALIZATION WILL CHANGE THAT. THE EVIDENCE IS CLEAR. THE SCIENTIFIC LITERATURE IS EXPLICIT ON THIS MATTER. AND SPEAKING OF TAMING TALENT - WHAT HAPPENS BY THE END OF BERGEVIN'S 'EXPERIMENT'? THE TALENT IS NOT TAMED, QUITE THE OPPOSITE, IT'S ACTUALLY IMPROVING. AND THIS DEMONSTRATES EXACTLY WHAT HAPPENED IN THE 90S. AND IT'S LIKE SOLZHENITSYN WRITES IN THE GULAG ARCHIPELAGO - REJEAN HOULE ATTEMPTED TO QUELL TALENT, BUT IN DOING SO HE MERELY FUELED IT. AND WELL ACTUALLY, HE DID QUITE A BIT MORE. YOU CAN'T PRETEND TO BE A GOOD GM IF YOU'RE NOT. WE TRIED THAT EXPERIMENT IN THE THE 90S, AND IT WAS A BAD IDEA MAN! AND IT. IS. NOT. A. ROUTE. YOU. WANT. TO. GO. DOWN.

(I actually quite enjoy a lot of Peterson's lectures and discussions, but he certainly has a tendency to go down the marxist rabbithole)

hahahaha. Yeah that's amazing. Nailed it.

 

[Miller Time]

What is your reasoning in that there is no upside in the NHL but only upside in a lesser league?

To take it to the very far extreme - would Connor McDavid have benefited from playing a year in a lesser league in 2o15-16?

At the moment, Kotka looks ready to play in the NHL. Why would we hold him back instead of watching and monitoring his progress?

Connor mcD would have returned to juniors, that's is not a comparable to the Finnish pro League.

Connor mcD is a generational talent who was dominant in the NHL from year one. Again, not a comparable to JKo.

What benefit do you see for JKO playing in the NHL this year?

That/those benefits need to outweigh the cap & physical/emotional risks that accompany keeping him here this year.

I don't think they do.

 

[Baksfamous112]

Exactly... this is what some people seem unwilling or incapable of processing.

It's a simple question of risk/reward. There is minimal to no upside of him playing in the NHL this year, and there is a boat load of downside and additional risk...

Him playing another year (or even 2) in the Finnish elite league has virtually no downside. What upside is there for him playing in the NHL?

Because there’s also countless of players who developed extrememly well in the NHL as well. He’s going to stay in Montreal as long as he keep progressing. If Julien/Bergevin sees that he’s starting to get overwhelmed by the NHL calendar or rythm of the NHL, I’m sure they won’t hesite to send him back to Finland.

One thing is crystal clear though, he earned the right to start the season in Montreal. I’m excited to see how he performs in a regular season game.

 

[Miller Time]

Because there’s also countless of players who developed extrememly well in the NHL as well. He’s going to stay in Montreal as long as he keep progressing. If Julien/Bergevin sees that he’s starting to get overwhelmed by the NHL calendar or rythm of the NHL, I’m sure they won’t hesite to send him back to Finland.

One thing is crystal clear though, he earned the right to start the season in Montreal. I’m excited to see how he performs in a regular season game.

The sad thing is that this management team is quite likely ready to let fan excitement factor into the decision...