Player Discussion Jesperi Kotkaniemi - Part 20 - Second line centre edition?

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Garbageyuk

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...that's just bullshyte; Staal brought NOTHING on the ice that Kotkaniemi wasn't better at and that incudes any defensive play or assignments...if you put aside the "he's not a superstar yet despite being a 21 year old rushed prospect" argument...
Lol ok. You can keep on thinking that the coaches, management, his line mates, the entire world are all out to sabotage poor KK, and that he doesn't have any responsibility, or say in what happens to him, nothing is ever his fault. He is just a helpless feather floating on the wind, that damn cruel wind :laugh:. Have a good one...
 
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BigDaddyLurch

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Lol ok. You can keep on thinking that the coaches, management, his line mates, the entire world are all out to sabotage poor KK, and that he doesn't have any responsibility, or say in what happens to him, nothing is ever his fault. He is just a helpless feather floating on the wind, that damn cruel wind :laugh:. Have a good one...

...so you can't name anything that Staal did better...didn't think so...the rest is just superfluous overreach...guess we'll find out in the next year or two if he can add some muscle and work on his flaws, as long as he's given the opportunity to do so...opportunity the operative word...
 

TesseractPrice

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You Just described Danualt. Kotkaniemi is 3 OA pick. If those stats are satisfactory then the habs will be a bubble team for years to come

I meant for next year and not as a finished product as it would show some improvement over the last one. I would obviously want him to keep progressing

If he doesn't get 0.5 PPG in 2021-2022 though, this is very concerning
 

Garbageyuk

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...so you can't name anything that Staal did better...didn't think so...the rest is just superfluous overreach...guess we'll find out in the next year or two if he can add some muscle and work on his flaws, as long as he's given the opportunity to do so...opportunity the operative word...
KK has had ample opportunity to establish a role with the team - he hasn't. KK has had 3 years to improve/progress - he hasn't. The playoffs, and certainly not the finals, aren't the time to let young guys develop and find their groove. Yes struggling young guys will get benched for vets, yes vets get the benefit of the doubt that young guys don't get, yes young guys have to clearly out-play veterans to play ahead of them. If you don't like this, take it up with virtually every coach ever.
 
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BigDaddyLurch

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KK has had ample opportunity to establish a role with the team - he hasn't. KK has had 3 years to improve/progress - he hasn't. The playoffs, and certainly not the finals, aren't the time to let young guys develop and find their groove. Yes struggling young guys will get benched for vets, yes vets get the benefit of the doubt that young guys don't get, yes young guys have to clearly out-play veterans to play ahead of them. If you don't like this, take it up with virtually every coach ever.

...to say Kotkaniemi hasn't progressed is bullshyte and a terrible hot take...of course he has areas he needs to work on to become a successful Top 6 C but so does every other 21 year old in the League...but apparently you've already made up your mind that he's a BUST so this discussion is moot at best...we'll revisit it In Season, I suppose...
 
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Garbageyuk

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...to say Kotkaniemi hasn't progressed is bullshyte and a terrible hot take...of course he has areas he needs to work on to become a successful Top 6 C but so does every other 21 year old in the League...but apparently you've already made up your mind that he's a BUST so this discussion is moot at best...we'll revisit it In Season, I suppose...
"Hot take"? I don't think you even know what that means. We are talking about 3 years here. There has been ZERO progress from KK in 3 years. He is the EXACT same player that showed up at rookie camp 3 years ago. Tell me what you claim he has improved?
 

BigDaddyLurch

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"Hot take"? I don't think you even know what that means. We are talking about 3 years here. There has been ZERO progress from KK in 3 years. He is the EXACT same player that showed up at rookie camp 3 years ago. Tell me what you claim he has improved?

...or maybe you just don't understand what PROGRESSION means...reread all the Kotkaniemi threads if you're looking for examples of his PROGRESSION, as there are many areas in which he's improved and continues to improve in...again, you're opinion of him is blinding you to anything positive the kid does...whatever, you have your take on him and I have mine; we'll hopefully see who's been paying attention to his development starting this Season when he's (hopefully) given the opportunity to either sink or swim...
 

Garbageyuk

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...or maybe you just don't understand what PROGRESSION means...reread all the Kotkaniemi threads if you're looking for examples of his PROGRESSION, as there are many areas in which he's improved and continues to improve in...again, you're opinion of him is blinding you to anything positive the kid does...whatever, you have your take on him and I have mine; we'll hopefully see who's been paying attention to his development starting this Season when he's (hopefully) given the opportunity to either sink or swim...
Give me a verifiable example of something he has improved since his rookie season.
 

Garbageyuk

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Player Discussion - Jesperi Kotkaniemi - Part 19

...start here and work backwards with the other Kotkaniemi threads...you'll see a lot of progression...if your bias against him doesn't get in the way, of course...
No, that's not how this is going to work. You are making a claim; the burden of proof is on you. You can't back up your claims? Give me a verifiable example of something he has improved since his rookie year. The stats to back up what I'm saying are readily and easily available. What I'm saying is easily verifiable.

Further...

KK has not improved his production.
KK has not gotten stronger.
KK has not improved any aspect of his skating.
KK has not established a defined role with the team.
KK has not earned the trust of his coaches, which means his defensive play has not improved.
KK faceoff percentage is virtually the same as his rookie season.


Where is this progress and improvement you claim?
 
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BigDaddyLurch

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No, that's not how this is going to work. You are making a claim; the burden of proof is on you. You can't back up your claims? Give me a verifiable example of something he has improved since his rookie year. The stats to back up what I'm saying are readily and easily available.

Further...

KK has not improved his production.
KK has not gotten stronger.
KK has not improved any aspect of his skating.
KK has not established a defined role with the team.
KK has not earned the trust of his coaches, which means his defensive play has not improved.
KK faceoff percentage is virtually the same as his rookie season.


Where is this progress and improvement you claim?

...yup, you can read...it's easy...or don't, I could give a Rat's Arse...your OPINION that he hasn't progressed at all is Stevie Wonder material...:deadhorse
 

Garbageyuk

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...yup, you can read...it's easy...or don't, I could give a Rat's Arse...your OPINION that he hasn't progressed at all is Stevie Wonder material...:deadhorse
The reason why you refuse to provide an example, is because you can't. You aren't fooling anyone by avoiding the question. It should be easy, if there's all this progress that you claim.
 
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BigDaddyLurch

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The reason why you refuse to provide an example is because you can't. You aren't fooling anyone by avoiding the question. It should be easy, if there's all this progress that you claim.

...no, the reason I'm not taking this the bait on this fallacy is because it's been well documented here for years and people get tired of posting the same thing over and over and still there's always those that won't grasp any of it...so either read or don't, again I couldn't care less...it's on the Coaching staff to utilize his strengths and let him progress in the areas he needs work...I see a kid that has the tools and just needs the time & opportunity to grow...we'll see if it happens here or elsewhere...in my opinion, it will happen for him, hence why I would be very wary of "giving up" on him already...
 
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Garbageyuk

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...no, the reason I'm not taking this the bait on this fallacy is because it's been well documented here for years and people get tired of posting the same thing over and over and still there's always those that won't grasp any of it...so either read or don't, again I couldn't care less...it's on the Coaching staff to utilize his strengths and let him progress in the areas he needs work...I see a kid that has the tools and just needs the time & opportunity to grow...we'll see if it happens here or elsewhere...in my opinion, it will happen for him, hence why I would be very wary of "giving up" on him already...
You quoted me. I don't care what you claim to have posted before, if you're going to quote someone, be prepared to back up your claims. There is no fallacy; everything I've said about his lack of progress/improvement is verifiable fact, and has been backed up. Imagine starting an argument with someone, and then resorting to petty evasion tactics because you can't backup or verify your claims :laugh:
 

HuGo Burner Acc

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Because he's a poor skater, and was having serious trouble keeping up with Tampa's skating and pace. And yes, he was a liability.

Answer my other question, which line before he got scratched in the first few finals games gave up the most GA. Also please explain to me why the lines were so drastically changed when Evans was inserted into the lineup in place of KK instead of simply replacing just him while keeping the same lines
 

Garbageyuk

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Answer my other question, which line before he got scratched in the first few finals games gave up the most GA. Also please explain to me why the lines were so drastically changed when Evans was inserted into the lineup in place of KK instead of simply replacing just him while keeping the same lines
Seems like those questions are better suited for the coaches; maybe there's an email where Ducharme and co can be reached :laugh:. Obviously I didn't make the decision; I'm just trying to explain the possible rationale behind it.
 

BigDaddyLurch

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You quoted me. I don't care what you claim to have posted before, if you're going to quote someone, be prepared to back up your claims. There is no fallacy; everything I've said about his lack of progress/improvement is verifiable fact, and has been backed up. Imagine starting an argument with someone, and then resorting to petty evasion tactics because you can't backup or verify your claims :laugh:

...asking you to read is "evasion tactics"??...OK...forgot this Generation isn't down with that...:laugh:
 

HuGo Burner Acc

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Seems like those questions are better suited for the coaches; maybe there's an email where Ducharme and co can be reached :laugh:. Obviously I didn't make the decision; I'm just trying to explain the possible rationale behind it.

Ok but you're so set on your absolute opinions. Two simple question, one of which is factual and the other night be given an explanation based on your rationale. First, which line during the first two games of the finals allowed the most GA. Second, why did they change the lines instead of simply just dropping Evans in KK's spot and leaving everything else the same? How would you explain such a move?
 

Habby4Life

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Give me a verifiable example of something he has improved since his rookie season.

He hasn’t, he was a brutal pick at 3 who will be gone in two yrs when the org gets tired out waiting for him to improve.

All the progression talk is fantasy bs just like the org is ruining him, AG syndrome! He doesn’t have the skillset to be a 1 or 2, mtl drafted an Eller who can’t stay on his feet at 3
 
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Garbageyuk

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...asking you to read is "evasion tactics"??...OK...forgot this Generation isn't down with that...:laugh:
Everyone can see for themselves what you're claiming is BS. There has been no improvement from KK in 3 years. That is fact. You have backed yourself into a corner here. Give it up. All we can do is hope KK turns the corner this year.
 

BLONG7

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Oh, I have a feeling whatever negative happens it's not going to be his fault.
He has been in the past one of the very few forwards who were held accountable....not sure why you are thinking otherwise?
The kids development has been going along, just ok....he knows it....he also knows, no one else ever seems accountable.
It will run it's course soon enough....he will either blossom with better wingers, and better TOI or he will be traded...either way, it's a win win for everyone...
 
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Garbageyuk

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...asking you to read is "evasion tactics"??...OK...forgot this Generation isn't down with that...:laugh:
Also, the funny thing is that you know I'm a regular poster here; I've read all the KK threads. This is just another stall tactic/way for you to evade the issue at hand. He hasn't improved at all in any way since he was a rookie 3 years ago.
 

Garbageyuk

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He hasn’t, he was a brutal pick at 3 who will be gone in two yrs when the org gets tired out waiting for him to improve.

All the progression talk is fantasy bs just like the org is ruining him, AG syndrome! He doesn’t have the skillset to be a 1 or 2, mtl drafted an Eller who can’t stay on his feet at 3
Exactly. I still think he is salvageable, however, and that he can still become a useful player. But won't ever be a 1C, that is blatantly obvious by now, if it wasn't already. Him being a 1C was always a pipe-dream.
 
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BLONG7

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Everyone can see for themselves what you're claiming is BS. There has been no improvement from KK in 3 years. That is fact. You have backed yourself into a corner here. Give it up. All we can do is hope KK turns the corner this year.
KK does get the right amount of TOI and quite often, more than often the leftover wingers............
The kid has not been afforded the proper chance, pretty simple.
His development has been somewhat hindered by his own coaches, at times....makes you wonder if he had played his first three years at the NHL level, with better wingers, like Gally and Tatar what might have happened?
You make some good points about his progression....but that's not the total story....
 
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