Player Discussion Jesperi Kotkaniemi - Part 20 - Second line centre edition?

[Lafleurs Guy]

He was fine with Toffoli, he produced at a 0.51 ppg after 37 games, during his awful stretch of 1 points in 19 games, he played mostly with Anderson and he hardly, if ever played with Toffoli at 5 on 5. During that span Anderson had 4 points.

Edit: Never mind, my message has nothing to do with your conversation.

I like Anderson with Suzuki and CC. Gives it an extra dimension.

 

[Zorba]

What does an 8 year contract cost for Kotkaniemi?

Obviously he's not dumb and would likely would prefer a shorter term deal, but just hypothetically what would it cost to get him to agree to 8 years?

5-6m? More?

We've got the cap space...

Really? 8 years and 40 million? Where do posters come up with this.
He’s not even a .5 ppg players and you wanna give him 40 million
Wow
In that case just give Suzuki 8 years and 12 million a year

 

[Captain97]

So I went through centres 21 and under this past year to see how many had more points than KK here is the list. Age was how old they were when the season started. I'd didnt count Necas as he played mainly wing.

N Suzuki - 41 points - 21
J Norris - 35 points - 21
J Hughes - 31 points - 19
G Vilardi - 23 points - 21
F Chytil - 22 points - 21
KK - 20 points - 20

Everyone ahead of him is expected to be a 2nd liner at worst if they stay healthy. Also the only one who was younger than him went 1st overall 3 drafts ago and has only played 1 season less. He was also 3 points shy of being 4th highest scoring U22 centre in the league and was the 2nd highest scoring centre under 21 in the NHL.

So basically I'm saying give him time.

 

[417]

So I went through centres 21 and under this past year to see how many had more points than KK here is the list. Age was how old they were when the season started. I'd didnt count Necas as he played mainly wing.

N Suzuki - 41 points - 21
J Norris - 35 points - 21
J Hughes - 31 points - 19
G Vilardi - 23 points - 21
F Chytil - 22 points - 21
KK - 20 points - 20

Everyone ahead of him is expected to be a 2nd liner at worst if they stay healthy. Also the only one who was younger than him went 1st overall 3 drafts ago and has only played 1 season less. He was also 3 points shy of being 4th highest scoring U22 centre in the league and was the 2nd highest scoring centre under 21 in the NHL.

So basically I'm saying give him time.

It’s all perception…the problem is less him and more with fans/media who expect him to put up a PPG from the 3rd line while playing with the coldest wingers who change every other game.

 

[HabsWhiteKnightLOL]

I have a bad feeling he'll be traded for Beauvillier.

Why would we trade him for another winger that we have 4 copies off

 

[Gravity]

Why would we trade him for another winger that we have 4 copies off

Bergy might think Beauvillier can be a C.

 

[Garbageyuk]

So I went through centres 21 and under this past year to see how many had more points than KK here is the list. Age was how old they were when the season started. I'd didnt count Necas as he played mainly wing.

N Suzuki - 41 points - 21
J Norris - 35 points - 21
J Hughes - 31 points - 19
G Vilardi - 23 points - 21
F Chytil - 22 points - 21
KK - 20 points - 20

Everyone ahead of him is expected to be a 2nd liner at worst if they stay healthy. Also the only one who was younger than him went 1st overall 3 drafts ago and has only played 1 season less. He was also 3 points shy of being 4th highest scoring U22 centre in the league and was the 2nd highest scoring centre under 21 in the NHL.

So basically I'm saying give him time.

There is one crucial difference between KK and those guys though; all of them have shown a clear progression/improvement since their rookie year. KK has not. He's the exact same player from rookie camp 3 years ago. Virtually zero improvement in any area - not a good sign. KK is on the Patrik Stefan development track.

 

[Garbageyuk]

It’s all perception…the problem is less him and more with fans/media who expect him to put up a PPG from the 3rd line while playing with the coldest wingers who change every other game.

No, the problem is that we expect some improvement/progression from him in 3 years, and he hasn't shown any. And give it a rest with the "poor KK/bad wingers" schtick. He needs to step it up. It's that simple.

 

[HabsWhiteKnightLOL]

Bergy might think Beauvillier can be a C.

LOL

 

[BLONG7]

No, the problem is that we expect some improvement/progression from him in 3 years, and he hasn't shown any. And give it a rest with the "poor KK/bad wingers" schtick. He needs to step it up. It's that simple.

Yes, of course he needs to step it up................that being said, it has been written he had played on 18 different line combos last year............so the coach needs to let this kid get on a line, and leave it.....the kid deserves that from his coach. 56 games............18 different line combos....

 

[Sorinth]

Yes, of course he needs to step it up................that being said, it has been written he had played on 18 different line combos last year............so the coach needs to let this kid get on a line, and leave it.....the kid deserves that from his coach. 56 games............18 different line combos....

It's always strange to me how people expect guys on the 3rd line to be consistently productive when they are in a constantly changing environment. All we can really ask is for a consistent effort in those situations, and KK has done that.

 

[417]

No, the problem is that we expect some improvement/progression from him in 3 years, and he hasn't shown any. And give it a rest with the "poor KK/bad wingers" schtick. He needs to step it up. It's that simple.

Once again…perception is your issue if you think he hasn’t improved in 3 years.

 

[Habs Halifax]

The question of when is when…Will be answered when the Habs actually want to give him that opportunity.

So far, they haven’t wanted or needed him too.

I think we would be more open to playing him with more opportunity if we were not trying to ice a mature roster trying to make the playoffs and we could live with him learning on the job in an increased role.

If no moves are made, Ducharme is forced to play him more which might be what fans are wanting

 

[MSLs absurd thighs]

The question of when is when…Will be answered when the Habs actually want to give him that opportunity.

So far, they haven’t wanted or needed him too.

When he'll show he can be counted on as an impact player?...
When he shows the ability to produce at a modest 0.5PPG rate?...
... when he even directly feeds a teammate a scoring chance in the offensive zone?...

I mean, they sure didn't hesitate to give accrued responsibilities to Suzuki when he started to get it going. No matter which narrative KK's biggest fans are trying to push.

You didn't have to ask yourself whether Gallagher was ready for prime time; he showed it.
You didn't have to ask yourself whether Suzuki was ready for prime time; he showed it.
Right now, you don't have to wonder all that much if Caufield is ready for prime time; he's showing it.

And before saying I have an agenda, I was one of Caufield's most vocal doubters this spring as to whether we were rushing him or not.

It's just unfair to come ahead and say "well all of these players had opportunities to show their worth". Most of them didn't have Josh Andersons or Tyler Toffolis to work with before establishing themselves as impact players. You could just see it.

 

[Garbageyuk]

Once again…perception is your issue if you think he hasn’t improved in 3 years.

Tell me what he has improved?

 

[salbutera]

Tell me what he has improved?

How about how TBay, Leafs and Bruins have all become worse teams thus reduced margin due to regular season points lost.

It’s a two way street, what you’re team does to improve and /or what your competitors do with a weaker lineup.

 

[CauZuki]

He went from Bambi on skates to being on par with Pinocchio's flimsy wooden legs

You sure seem reasonable and unbiased...

 

[MSLs absurd thighs]

You sure seem reasonable and unbiased...

I mean, he's asked the same question about 3 or 4 times in the last 2 pages and it doesn't look like anyone can come up with any concrete answer

 

[angusyoung]

You sure seem reasonable and unbiased...

Here you find people pumping up KK and some dumping on KK, should be able to express their opinions as they see fit.

 

[Gravity]

Tell me what he has improved?

He's improved skating, balance, strength (cycle ability), physical play, faceoff ability and transition play.

 

[sandviper]

He's improved skating, balance, strength (cycle ability), physical play, faceoff ability and transition play.

His faceoffs improved massively since last year. He also continues to be a possession monster.

 

[Sorinth]

When he'll show he can be counted on as an impact player?...
When he shows the ability to produce at a modest 0.5PPG rate?...
... when he even directly feeds a teammate a scoring chance in the offensive zone?...

I mean, they sure didn't hesitate to give accrued responsibilities to Suzuki when he started to get it going. No matter which narrative KK's biggest fans are trying to push.

You didn't have to ask yourself whether Gallagher was ready for prime time; he showed it.
You didn't have to ask yourself whether Suzuki was ready for prime time; he showed it.
Right now, you don't have to wonder all that much if Caufield is ready for prime time; he's showing it.

And before saying I have an agenda, I was one of Caufield's most vocal doubters this spring as to whether we were rushing him or not.

It's just unfair to come ahead and say "well all of these players had opportunities to show their worth". Most of them didn't have Josh Andersons or Tyler Toffolis to work with before establishing themselves as impact players. You could just see it.

So Kotkaniemi has to establish himself as a top-6 player before he should get a chance at a top-6 role? This is despite the fact all these other players didn't have to do it. Doesn't seem fair but ok, for how long does he have to do that, because last season he was at 0.5ppg after 38 games. And as a note Staal started playing on game 35. So Kotkaniemi did exactly what you asked, produce at 0.5ppg while playing on the 3rd line with a revolving door of wingers which according to you is what he needed to prove. Yet rather then get promoted he got demoted.

Look if you don't think KK has the "it" factor to be a top-6 fine, everybody has their opinion but don't try to hide behind things like he has to earn it or prove something, or has to produce at a certain rate because that's pure BS. And we know it's BS because even when he does do it, it's not enough.

 

[MSLs absurd thighs]

So Kotkaniemi has to establish himself as a top-6 player before he should get a chance at a top-6 role? This is despite the fact all these other players didn't have to do it. Doesn't seem fair but ok, for how long does he have to do that, because last season he was at 0.5ppg after 38 games. And as a note Staal started playing on game 35. So Kotkaniemi did exactly what you asked, produce at 0.5ppg while playing on the 3rd line with a revolving door of wingers which according to you is what he needed to prove. Yet rather then get promoted he got demoted.

Look if you don't think KK has the "it" factor to be a top-6 fine, everybody has their opinion but don't try to hide behind things like he has to earn it or prove something, or has to produce at a certain rate because that's pure BS. And we know it's BS because even when he does do it, it's not enough.

Without producing at a 0.5PPG rate, he should at the very least consistently show that he can either play a very good defensive game, either have the ability to make his linemates better, either play physically with some consistency and give some space and time to his linemates. He hasn't done any of that on a consistent basis. The only samples people come up with when it comes to Kotkaniemi, is 2 playoffs runs in which he shot at a ridiculous 23% rate, which is unsustainable in the long run.

He has to show something - anything - that makes him a good option as a top-6 C. Not saying it's never going to happen. But as of now, there's just no argument in his favor as to whether he's ready to take on such a role.

 

[Deebs]

He hasn’t really been put in a position or relied upon to produce points so far.

Yes and no.

That's why I was saying this year he has to start producing because he'll be put in a position to do so. I think he will

 

[MSLs absurd thighs]

Yes and no.

That's why I was saying this year he has to start producing because he'll be out in a position to do so. I think he will

If he doesn't by being sheltered, there's no indication he will when he'll be relied on to play against tougher opposition.