Player Discussion Jesperi Kotkaniemi Part 16

[azcanuck]

I get your point but normally for your top prospects, you play the prospect/young player with top-6 players to develop and build confidence rather than having the same player with bottom-6 players and trying to build them up. This is especially the case since the team knew KK was a project and not some high-end offensive franchise potential player. If that was the wrong pick, well, that is on them. The comparisons to Stutzle for example are laughable because they aren't the same player at all. Not to say KK won't be a good, or even a great center for us, but if he tops out as a 60pt guy that can cycle the puck and dominate possession, that's ok for me.

Sure, I get the paying their dues for the first couple years but eventually the team is going to have to decide what to do since they are the ones who drafted him.

He's had plenty of opportunity with the top wingers on the team, someone posted minutes he's played and it was the most with guys like Anderson and Toffoli. He's had his chances and right now he's simply not showing well. You dont just keep jamming a guy out there that's hurting your chances of winning. You put the best players out the most often. It's a simple recipe for winning. Other players smell an agenda and then it's all over.

 

[azcanuck]

He had a lot of turnovers on the wall and down low recently on the pp.

I dont think he's even been on the PP recently. If he has very little.

 

[26Mats]

I dont think he's even been on the PP recently. If he has very little.

kk was on the 2nd unit recently. in the last 4 games, he's gotten 2 min. of pp time in 3 games, and 1 min. in the other. kept turning the puck over.

 

[RationalExpectations]

I love how some fans only look at point production. If you compare Suzuki and KK, the first is older by one year, scores more points but loses way more pucks. At EV, KK may not score a lot of points (yet?) but I sure prefer having him than Suzuki. He covers very well the center of the ice and generates turnovers from the other side, he has a good possession game. If you look at CF%, he is at 56, 2pp behind Danault, but 3pp more than Suzuki.

MTL fans should be happy to have two centers with different skillsets.

 

[morhilane]

In PPTOI/G, he's still just outside the top 3 among forwards.

You have Suzuki, Toffoli and Drouin, top 3, then ... (Perry, KK, Tatar, Gally) all within :08 of each other per game.

Was your point that he deserves more PP time? I hope not. Almost 100 minutes, no goals, 1 primary assist.

Congratulation, you just discovered that there is two PP waves and that KK is on wave #2 which role is to fill in the last ~30ish seconds of every 2 minutes PP when wave 1 doesn't manage to score. Then you add that he can't use his one-timer where he's placed on the PP.

When Ducharme/Burrows took over everyone was commenting on how amazing PP wave 2 was and how wave 1 was looking like crap (thanks to Drouin/Weber) . The coaches did everything to try to get wave 1 going instead of giving more ice time to wave 2.

The comment about low PP TOI isn't that he doesn't get PP TOI, it is that he gets the leftovers.

His confidence went down the drain in April after being sky high in March. It match with him getting new wingers every 2 games over 7 games (stretch only ended today as KK/Danault/Anderson wasn't altered, he had 11 different linemates in the last 17 games). Saying that, he was actually fine last game despite being totally miscast at LW. It shows that he never really played it and he doesn't like it.

 

[Ozmodiar]

Congratulation, you just discovered that there is two PP waves and that KK is on wave #2 which role is to fill in the last ~30ish seconds of every 2 minutes PP when wave 1 doesn't manage to score. Then you add that he can't use his one-timer where he's placed on the PP.

When Ducharme/Burrows took over everyone was commenting on how amazing PP wave 2 was and how wave 1 was looking like crap (thanks to Drouin/Weber) . The coaches did everything to try to get wave 1 going instead of giving more ice time to wave 2.

The comment about low PP TOI isn't that he doesn't get PP TOI, it is that he gets the leftovers.

His confidence went down the drain in April after being sky high in March. It match with him getting new wingers every 2 games over 7 games (stretch only ended today as KK/Danault/Anderson wasn't altered, he had 11 different linemates in the last 17 games). Saying that, he was actually fine last game despite being totally miscast at LW. It shows that he never really played it and he doesn't like it.

You’re terrible at math.

 

[Sorinth]

He's had plenty of opportunity with the top wingers on the team, someone posted minutes he's played and it was the most with guys like Anderson and Toffoli. He's had his chances and right now he's simply not showing well. You dont just keep jamming a guy out there that's hurting your chances of winning. You put the best players out the most often. It's a simple recipe for winning. Other players smell an agenda and then it's all over.

You make it sound like he didn't produce with those top wingers when in fact it was the opposite he's been very productive when playing with good offensive players and not good when playing without them.

This also shows how little consistency Kotkaniemi has compared to the other centers
Montreal Canadiens 2020-21: Most goals scored per 60 minutes

 

[DAChampion]

I love how some fans only look at point production. If you compare Suzuki and KK, the first is older by one year, scores more points but loses way more pucks. At EV, KK may not score a lot of points (yet?) but I sure prefer having him than Suzuki. He covers very well the center of the ice and generates turnovers from the other side, he has a good possession game. If you look at CF%, he is at 56, 2pp behind Danault, but 3pp more than Suzuki.

MTL fans should be happy to have two centers with different skillsets.

Nothing against Kotkaniemi, but Suzuki is the Habs' best skater, or maybe tied with Gallagher at that rank.

 

[Hins77]

Nothing against Kotkaniemi, but Suzuki is the Habs' best skater, or maybe tied with Gallagher at that rank.

There is some player where the puck is going to the guy and few like byron who are skating a lot to reach that puck. Suzuki positionning it almost perfect. He knows exactly where the play is going to be draw. The best in montreal for sure

 

[Miller Time]

I love how some fans only look at point production. If you compare Suzuki and KK, the first is older by one year, scores more points but loses way more pucks. At EV, KK may not score a lot of points (yet?) but I sure prefer having him than Suzuki. He covers very well the center of the ice and generates turnovers from the other side, he has a good possession game. If you look at CF%, he is at 56, 2pp behind Danault, but 3pp more than Suzuki.

MTL fans should be happy to have two centers with different skillsets.

agreed... we're lucky to have that duo, hopefully MB isn't allowed to do something stupid and give one up prematurely.

I've got JKO as having a slightly higher overall impact ceiling than Suzuki for exactly the reasons you point out... Once/If he grows his offensive game to a higher & more consistent level (beyond the simple and obvious bump in production we'd see if he were given the minutes/linemate consistency Suzuki gets) he could be a very dominant 200ft C. That size/reach + game sense + competitiveness could see him top out as an elite 2way force that can dominate puck possession in ways that might push him past Suzuki's overall impact.

either way, both are great young players with very high ceilings. Will be fun to watch them blossom in Montreal provided MB isn't allowed to screw it up.

 

[TannedBum]

KK has only 2nd wave "fill in" PP TOI. Everyone knows it’s not real TOI, so it doesn't count.

Yes. This is the famous "Double D syndrome" among fanboys. Delusion&Denial.

 

[Tourist]

Some prospects come into the NHL raw, others polished. Not everyone agrees on Kotkaniemi's ceiling, and that's normal. That's difficult to predict. But I'd say most would agree that he's come in more raw than polished. He's a decent NHL center now and he really looks like he has plenty of room to grow.

So how do you get a raw prospect to grow? Time surely helps but management can't control that. Icetime to me seems like an obvious answer. Lots of it. Repeating over and over things you are projected to be doing (playing in the top 6 as a center with good wingers in KK's case) seems like a great way to reach said potential. No disrespect to Danault, but it's not like the Habs are winning anything with him in the top 2. Let's be honest.

So yeah give the kid lots of icetime please.

 

[Paddy17]

I think KK's overall play has been very good this year, save for the last 2-3 weeks. He hasn't been putting up as many points as we'd like, but he's shown more speed and balance, while being relatively strong on the puck.

Of course, there have been bad games, and those have been more frequent in the last few weeks, but he's never been a detriment to the team even in those bad games. Right now, he's having a hard time with the schedule and his confidence has taken a hit. It's a learning experience and I'm sure he'll learn from it.

Be patient and let him learn and improve. It might not be as fast as people would like, but his potential is still there.

 

[morhilane]

KK has only 2nd wave "fill in" PP TOI. Everyone knows it’s not real TOI, so it doesn't count.

Yes. This is the famous "Double D syndrome" among fanboys. Delusion&Denial.

Because saying second wave 2 TOI isn't the same as wave 1 TOI is the equivalent of saying it doesn't count. Wow.

Lets look at some other teams wave 2 shall we (May 3 lineup from dailyfaceoff.com). Because you need to compare apples to apples. So wave 2 to wave 2. Note: not stats for players moving between wave 1 and 2.

Team	wave 2 players	Highest pts
Florida	Tippet, Weegar, Wennberg, Gusev, Montour	6 in 97:31 minutes (Wennberg TOI/G 1:50)
Vegas	Tuch, Karlsson, Smith, Pietrangelo, Marchessault	6 in 120:56 minutes (Marchessault TOI/G 2:28) (Tuch is next one in pts on wave 2 with 4 pts TOI/G 1:56)
Devils	Wood, Kuokkanen, Serverson, Butcher, Sharangovich	4 in 96:57 minutes (Severson TOI/G 1:54)
Boston	Coyle, Krejci, Smith, Hall, McAvoy	14 in 119:00 minutes (Krecji TOI/G 2:35) (next, McAvoy with 7 in 91:59 minutes and TOI/G of 2:00)
Carolina (best PP in the league)	Fast, Necas, Bean, Teravainen, Niederreiter	11 in 90:23 minutes (Necas, TOI/G 1:53 then it falls to 5 pts next)
Colorado	Kadri, Toews, Timmins, Nichushkins, Buravokosky	11 in 100:20 minutes (Buravokosky TOI/G 2:11, similar to Carolina for the drop off)
Buffalo (they nave the nearest pp% to the Habs)	Skinner, Thompspn, Bryson, Ristolainen, Ruotsalainen	5 in in 85:00 minutes (Ruotsalainen TOI/G: 1:53)

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

I tried to pick good, middle and bad teams on the PP...and I don't feel like doing all of them, but it seems getting 4-6 pts on wave 2 is normal production.

 

[Habby4Life]

I dont think he's even been on the PP recently. If he has very little.

He hasn’t done anything on the PP, he should be getting less.

 

[DramaticGloveSave]

When excuses are being made that’s when you know the panic is setting in.

 

[Mrb1p]

Because saying second wave 2 TOI isn't the same as wave 1 TOI is the equivalent of saying it doesn't count. Wow.

Lets look at some other teams wave 2 shall we (May 3 lineup from dailyfaceoff.com). Because you need to compare apples to apples. So wave 2 to wave 2. Note: not stats for players moving between wave 1 and 2.

Team	wave 2 players	Highest pts
Florida	Tippet, Weegar, Wennberg, Gusev, Montour	6 in 97:31 minutes (Wennberg TOI/G 1:50)
Vegas	Tuch, Karlsson, Smith, Pietrangelo, Marchessault	6 in 120:56 minutes (Marchessault TOI/G 2:28) (Tuch is next one in pts on wave 2 with 4 pts TOI/G 1:56)
Devils	Wood, Kuokkanen, Serverson, Butcher, Sharangovich	4 in 96:57 minutes (Severson TOI/G 1:54)
Boston	Coyle, Krejci, Smith, Hall, McAvoy	14 in 119:00 minutes (Krecji TOI/G 2:35) (next, McAvoy with 7 in 91:59 minutes and TOI/G of 2:00)
Carolina (best PP in the league)	Fast, Necas, Bean, Teravainen, Niederreiter	11 in 90:23 minutes (Necas, TOI/G 1:53 then it falls to 5 pts next)
Colorado	Kadri, Toews, Timmins, Nichushkins, Buravokosky	11 in 100:20 minutes (Buravokosky TOI/G 2:11, similar to Carolina for the drop off)
Buffalo (they nave the nearest pp% to the Habs)	Skinner, Thompspn, Bryson, Ristolainen, Ruotsalainen	5 in in 85:00 minutes (Ruotsalainen TOI/G: 1:53)

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

I tried to pick good, middle and bad teams on the PP...and I don't feel like doing all of them, but it seems getting 4-6 pts on wave 2 is normal production.

Man youve been killing it lately, great work.

Watch them reply with some random of the hand tho.

 

[Mrb1p]

When excuses are being made that’s when you know the panic is setting in.

Or the same people are saying the same thing they have been saying since 2018-2019... But yeah, its panic.

 

[DramaticGloveSave]

Or the same people are saying the same thing they have been saying since 2018-2019... But yeah, its panic.

Maybe noones panicking then lol

I’m still saying what I was in 2018 that’s for sure. Really am hoping KK proves me wrong. But for the sake of the team, the time for him to step up is now.

 

[Mrb1p]

Maybe noones panicking then lol

I’m still saying what I was in 2018 that’s for sure. Really am hoping KK proves me wrong. But for the sake of the team, the time for him to step up is now.

Or the time for the team to step up is now for him, who knows though... A random dude on the internet or thousands of psychologist around the world.

 

[DramaticGloveSave]

Or the time for the team to step up is now for him, who knows though... A random dude on the internet or thousands of psychologist around the world.

Wat

 

[TannedBum]

I tried to pick good, middle and bad teams on the PP...and I don't feel like doing all of them, but it seems getting 4-6 pts on wave 2 is normal production.

There are no waves. There are units, and both units of this team have an equal opportunity to produce. Sometimes unit 1 starts, sometimes the 2nd and most of the time change happen halfway. 100min, zero goals and 4 assists is simply bullshit production. There's no way around it.

 

[Paddy17]

Or the time for the team to step up is now for him, who knows though... A random dude on the internet or thousands of psychologist around the world.

Ahem... sport psychologist here... I can tell you that small things on a mental level can often create a big leap for a player. It's often not gradual and linear.

Take Gally for exemple. At first, his mindset was "crash the net" and "shoot when you have a chance". Before his first 30-goal season, he changed his mindset to "go to the net to score" and "shoot to score ". I can tell you that just that little mental shift made a huge difference for him. This was even documented back then.

 

[Miller Time]

Ahem... sport psychologist here... I can tell you that small things on a mental level can often create a big leap for a player. It's often not gradual and linear.

Take Gally for exemple. At first, his mindset was "crash the net" and "shoot when you have a chance". Before his first 30-goal season, he changed his mindset to "go to the net to score" and "shoot to score ". I can tell you that just that little mental shift made a huge difference for him. This was even documented back then.

of course, external/relational factors can be a huge driver of mindset shifts... and/or enabling the attachment to or persistance of an unproductive mindset, no?

 

[Doc5]

Off topic, but not really.

Not saying Bennett is going to produce consistently with the Panthers and that KK might follow the same pattern, but the Flames possibly traded a #1 PPG Centre for 2 second round picks.