Player Discussion Jesperi Kotkaniemi (Part 11)

[WeThreeKings]

He played PP last night. He’s playing with Drouin. He’s getting regular shifts. He’s playing center. We won the game. Give it a ****ing rest.

It's his second season.
His defensive metrics are better than most players on the team.
His development is more important than running Weal, Thomson and Armia out there in more situations.
His PP TOI and EV TOI is too low.

 

[Mrb1p]

We beat the freaking Blues last night, stop complaining. The guy is literally playing with our top winger and we are only 5 games in.

Why can't the team beat the Blues with Kotkaniemi playing AT LEAST a 3rd line role ?

He played PP last night. He’s playing with Drouin. He’s getting regular shifts. He’s playing center. We won the game. Give it a ****ing rest.

He took a shift on the PP.

Hes getting so many regular shifts that he played under 3 minutes in the 2nd period last night.

 

[Nick Slafkofield]

It's his second season.
His defensive metrics are better than most players on the team.
His development is more important than running Weal, Thomson and Armia out there in more situations.
His PP TOI and EV TOI is too low.

We won the game, who cares about the rest?
Am i doing this right?

 

[WeThreeKings]

We won the game, who cares about the rest?
Am i doing this right?

Yes

How dare the rest of us question Claude Julien and Marc Bergevin in their deployment and development of young talent in Montreal.

Their record is flawless. Look at our line up

Tatar-Leblanc-Scherbak
Drouin-Galchenyuk-Gallagher
Mccarron-Kotkaniemi-Lehkonen

Beaulieu-Weber
Tinordi-Petry
Chiarot-Juulsen

 

[Nick Slafkofield]

Yes

How dare the rest of us question Claude Julien and Marc Bergevin in their deployment and development of young talent in Montreal.

Their record is flawless. Look at our line up

Tatar-Leblanc-Scherbak
Drouin-Galchenyuk-Gallagher
Mccarron-Kotkaniemi-Lehkonen

Beaulieu-Weber
Tinordi-Petry
Chiarot-Juulsen

That’s a stellar lineup!

 

[Mrb1p]

Yes

How dare the rest of us question Claude Julien and Marc Bergevin in their deployment and development of young talent in Montreal.

Their record is flawless. Look at our line up

Tatar-Leblanc-Scherbak
Drouin-Galchenyuk-Gallagher
Mccarron-Kotkaniemi-Lehkonen

Beaulieu-Weber
Tinordi-Petry
Chiarot-Juulsen

Scratch that and look at Juliens record in the past five years ! He made the POs once, how is that not great ?

Much better than the Devils, whove been lololol pathetic... Like what team makes the POs once in 5 years ????

Julien left that lame ass Bruins team just on time, their record is terrible since he's left, 118-53 ? What kind of terrible freaking crappy record is that ?

 

[ottawa]

Can't believe Claude thinks playing 4th and 3rd liners is more important than developing our potential future #1C...

How many #3 overalls got less TOI in their sophomore year than their rookie year?

 

[HabsWhiteKnightLOL]

Scratch that and look at Juliens record in the past five years ! He made the POs once, how is that not great ?

Much better than the Devils, whove been lololol pathetic... Like what team makes the POs once in 5 years ????

Julien left that lame ass Bruins team just on time, their record is terrible since he's left, 118-53 ? What kind of terrible freaking crappy record is that ?

Julien is washed up like Babcock is.

The old guard from team Canada is completely out of sync with the game in 2019. Julien and Babcock love eachother because they do the same shit , use the 4thline to often and play the plugs to give them more icetime. Both are washed up. Julien is brainwashed by Weal and Thompson while Babcock was brainwashed by Komarov Hainsey and Zaitsev . It's like they are scared to new things.
It's same with Kotkaniemi , he won't increase his TOI unless they are injuries from Danault or Domi. Im sure that if Belzile was called up , he would get more icetime than Kotkaniemi and would probably be used on the PP before Kotkaniemi.

Dinosaurs belong in a museum.
Claude Julien has been terrible for the last 6 years , He's washed up.

 

[Justin11]

It's his second season.
His defensive metrics are better than most players on the team.
His development is more important than running Weal, Thompson and Armia out there in more situations.
His PP TOI and EV TOI is too low.

I know its early in the season, but it’s very possible that we miss the PO’s again this season, while overplaying the Weal’s and Thompson’s of the world and not developing our future in the process. It will be a huge fail like it has been for the last several years.

 

[Saku K]

I have a few question for those who are infuriated with KK's ice time utilization since he is apparently playing a ''fourth line role'' playing with our current top winger and armia who doesn't do bad for himself as well right now. Were you the same guys who were infuriated by the fact he was put with these two players in the first place before a puck even dropped in the regular season? I would like to remind everyone that 5-on-5, PP and PK are three different things. His ice time clearly show he plays third line minutes at even strenght.

How would you rate KK's production and overall work on the powerplay last year? 1 goal and 4 assists in almost 2 minutes per game of PP ice time. I'm not saying KK won't get better or I approve of Julien not using him on the PP. I would prefer he uses him over some of our other guys but it seems everyone is forgetting his utilization last year and the results he got in. Those are terrible results, probably close to be if not the worst on the team. I saw nobody on this pointing this out so far on the post I read so far. Why? I guess because he's young he's learning he deserves to be there because he was drafted at high spot, last year's everybody sucked anyway type of excuses. Without the excuses, again on a scale of A+ to E is he closer to A+ or E or the middle?

And would you use him on the PK even though you have proven guys on the PK like Danault and Thompson at C and KK's current faceoff% is 37,7%? You have 4 forwards to choose on the PK does he make the cut? If so why?

I would like to remind that our powerplay is T-12th at 25% without the top end talent that most others teams have and our PK has been bad so far and I don't think I would personally put KK on there. Oh and yes we are playing well overall and still winning games. It's been only 5 game as well.

Thompson has about the same ice time he got last year and will get about the same as his career average this year. So clearly to me he isn't the problem, so might as well turn this one into a KK vs Evil Danault right now like a bunch of other threads on this board anyway. Because only then, a lot of you be happy with the coaching staff.

 

[JoelWarlord]

We beat the freaking Blues last night, stop complaining. The guy is literally playing with our top winger

Has he ever played with Gallagher?

 

[Genghis Keon]

I have a few question for those who are infuriated with KK's ice time utilization since he is apparently playing a ''fourth line role'' playing with our current top winger and armia who doesn't do bad for himself as well right now. Were you the same guys who were infuriated by the fact he was put with these two players in the first place before a puck even dropped in the regular season? I would like to remind everyone that 5-on-5, PP and PK are three different things. His ice time clearly show he plays third line minutes at even strenght.

How would you rate KK's production and overall work on the powerplay last year? 1 goal and 4 assists in almost 2 minutes per game of PP ice time. I'm not saying KK won't get better or I approve of Julien not using him on the PP. I would prefer he uses him over some of our other guys but it seems everyone is forgetting his utilization last year and the results he got in. Those are terrible results, probably close to be if not the worst on the team. I saw nobody on this pointing this out so far on the post I read so far. Why? I guess because he's young he's learning he deserves to be there because he was drafted at high spot, last year's everybody sucked anyway type of excuses. Without the excuses, again on a scale of A+ to E is he closer to A+ or E or the middle?

And would you use him on the PK even though you have proven guys on the PK like Danault and Thompson at C and KK's current faceoff% is 37,7%? You have 4 forwards to choose on the PK does he make the cut? If so why?

I would like to remind that our powerplay is T-12th at 25% without the top end talent that most others teams have and our PK has been bad so far and I don't think I would personally put KK on there. Oh and yes we are playing well overall and still winning games. It's been only 5 game as well.

Thompson has about the same ice time he got last year and will get about the same as his career average this year. So clearly to me he isn't the problem, so might as well turn this one into a KK vs Evil Danault right now like a bunch of other threads on this board anyway. Because only then, a lot of you be happy with the coaching staff.

For me, it's all about trying to win the Cup. Is Danault likely to be a top 2 centre on a Cup winning team? IMO, unlikely. Could he be a tough minute 3 line centre on a Cup winning team? Yeah, I could definitely see that. Would Thompson be a core piece on a Cup winning team? IMO, no. He might come up big and play a major role, but he's not a guy you'll be relying on. Does Kotkaniemi have the potential to be a top 2 centre on a Cup winning team? He's obviously not there right now, but yes I think he has the potential to be a legitimate top 2 centre on a Cup winning team.

As a fan, do I care about just making the playoffs with little chance of actually winning it all? Not really. I don't care about 1st and 2nd round exits.

For these reasons, I would prioritize trying to develop Kotkaniemi into a legitimate top 2 centre over fighting for a playoff spot with virtually no chance of actually winning the Cup.

This takes us to how Kotkaniemi is being developed. Personally, I think he should be given more minutes and opportunity to grow. Presumably management wants to grow Kotkaniemi into a legitimate top 2 centre as well and they have their own plan for him, which, right now, involves relatively few minutes and little PP time. Maybe their strategy will work, but, like many, I can't help thinking of Galchenyuk. Obviously Kotkaniemi and Galchenyuk are different players with different strengths and weaknesses, but both were drafted 3rd overall as centres with tonnes of promise. Galchenyuk didn't get a whole lot of ice time despite his production and was moved around from centre to wing, and, through his limitations, or managements' development plan, or a combination of both, he failed to live up to his advance billing. Because this is the same management team that failed to develop Galchenyuk (through his fault, theirs, or a combination of both), it's not exactly easy to give them the benefit of the doubt.

 

[JoelWarlord]

I have a few question for those who are infuriated with KK's ice time utilization since he is apparently playing a ''fourth line role''

He is dead last on the team among forwards in TOI/GP right now and just 5 games into the season he's played games with as low as 11:31 and 12:01 already. Just because you put fourth line in quotation marks doesn't mean it isn't true.

And would you use him on the PK even though you have proven guys on the PK like Danault and Thompson at C and KK's current faceoff% is 37,7%? You have 4 forwards to choose on the PK does he make the cut? If so why?

Yes. In my opinion he's the best defensive forward on the team and Danault is the only guy that's in his tier. His reach and frame would be excellent on the penalty kill and his defensive awareness is exceptional. I don't care much about faceoffs to begin with but Danault's current faceoff percentage is 46.8% and Thompson is 51.5%. Not exactly two Patrice Bergerons in the dot. Kotkaniemi could also just be on the PK and not take faceoffs.

Thompson has about the same ice time he got last year and will get about the same as his career average this year. So clearly to me he isn't the problem

Why does this mean he or his deployment isn't a problem? Karl Alzner played his career average and was a disaster. Washington replaced Alzner's career average with more minutes to Orlov, Niskanen, and Kempny and won the cup. Sometimes guys are overused and it's often the case with "defensive" players and depth grinder types.

How well have teams historically done when playing Thompson for 3rd line minutes? He played 3rd line minutes in his prime a decade ago for largely mediocre Tampa teams excluding 2010-11 (where he had 4 points in 18 games in the playoffs getting 15 mins a night). Then he was bad in 3rd line minutes in Anaheim, demoted to 4C behind Vermette and played 10 minutes a night the year Anaheim went to the conference final. Then he played 3rd line minutes for LA and Ottawa who sucked, and played 3rd line minutes for the Habs who fell out of a playoff spot down the stretch. I don't think it's a coincidence that the wheels fell off last year when Thompson became the matchup 3C and Kotkaniemi was effectively dropped to the 4th line.

 

[Saku K]

I don't know what you don't understand here. When you draw your lineup and make trios, it is for TOI at even strength or TOI/GP? The trios are not made for the special units. That is why I put ''fourth line role'' because KK plays with drouin and armia and gets more TOI at even strength then Nate Thompson Paul Byron Jordan Weal and even Armia. That is why I put ''fourth line'' like that. I can see a difference between a third line center that doesn't play the PK and a fourth line center who does and gets more ice as a result. I just don't see how you can confuse what I wrote here.

 

[Vern]

Playing 18 year olds with high draft pedigree 16mins a night and 1st pp mins is how you end up with 9m per rfa contracts that walk them to free agency. If it was gonna be the difference in winning the cup he'd play more. Until then his utilization is fine.

 

[Vern]

Also if he doesn't figure out how to win faceoffs at the nhl level in the next couple of years he's not going to stick as a center. Matching him up with top 6 centers every night will not help that.

 

[peate]

Also if he doesn't figure out how to win faceoffs at the nhl level in the next couple of years he's not going to stick as a center. Matching him up with top 6 centers every night will not help that.

Face-off are overrated. If he can get to and stay around 50%, he'll be fine.

 

[salbutera]

Overreaction by some of the Habs faithful is a sight to behold...remember when Subban was put in the press box for a few games during his first couple of seasons or was given limited TOI by Martin? Sure ruined his development....

 

[DAChampion]

Overreaction by some of the Habs faithful is a sight to behold...remember when Subban was put in the press box for a few games during his first couple of seasons or was given limited TOI by Martin? Sure ruined his development....

That's completely different -- it was for be games, not more than 80, and Martin was allowing the young Habs to develop.

 

[salbutera]

That's completely different -- it was for be games, not more than 80, and Martin was allowing the young Habs to develop.

That was during his first two regular seasons despite having performed during the 2010 playoffs as a callup from AHL. And he was benched and sat out games as a 20, 21 and 22 year old.

People see what they want to see.

 

[Mrb1p]

Overreaction by some of the Habs faithful is a sight to behold...remember when Subban was put in the press box for a few games during his first couple of seasons or was given limited TOI by Martin? Sure ruined his development....

What was Subbans TOI?

Ill help you, it was almost 10 minutes over what Kotkaniemi is getting.

 

[A55P2]

What was Subbans TOI?

Ill help you, it was almost 10 minutes over what Kotkaniemi is getting.

He had plenty of ice time, but the problem was that he would be too cautious and wouldn't join the offense as much. When Subban first came in he had crazy good rushes, I still think he had more in him.

 

[JoelWarlord]

Coaches doing dumb things with Subban and having him still turn into a star doesn't mean it's smart to play Kotkaniemi less than Nate Thompson or that fans are being hysterical if they're unhappy he's playing 13 minutes.

Not exactly sure how "the guy the organization never appreciated and undervalued from day 1, who they tried to lowball after he won a Norris, and then got hosed trading away for dumb reasons was also benched early on in his career" is supposed to make me feel better about how they're developing Kotkaniemi.

 

[TheGoalJudge]

I don't get the comparisons with Thompson. They are doing two completely different roles.

KK is playing 12:51 on EV and getting almost 60% of his starts in the O-Zone.

Thompson is playing 11:15 on EV and getting a hilarious 67% of his starts in the D-Zone.

People want these roles switched, really?

 

[salbutera]

What was Subbans TOI?

Ill help you, it was almost 10 minutes over what Kotkaniemi is getting.

Yet this anti-young player org is giving Mete over 18 TOI, and PP duties to rookie Suzuki.

Maybe they’re just trying to put these players in position to succeed. Slow and steady wins the race.