Player Discussion Jesperi Kotkaniemi (Part 11)

[salbutera]

It just seems like history repeating...repeating...repeating itself.

Why is Julien so desperate to win he'll use Weal because he's less risky when the GM seems to not give two craps about making the POs?
I'd love to hear the discussions between Bergevin and Julien because there is a clear disconnect.

Is it Julien or a mandate from ownership (re: making playoffs this season)? Just asking, I’ve got no way of knowing but more & more I get the sense MBs the perfect puppet for ownership. I’ve always suspected the “reset” term was imposed on MB from ownership.

 

[Habs Icing]

I'm not asking CJ to play Kotkaniemi as the #1C for 20 mins a game...

I'm just asking CJ to be as invested in the development of Kotkaniemi as a player, as he seems to be invested in Jordan Weal or Nate Thompson.

Julien's job is to win games. Player development is Bouchard's job in the organization.

We don't know for certain if last year's decision to keep KK on the team had Julien's complete endorsement. I suspect Bicep Marc - and the PR department - strong-armed him to make that decision.

Julien's treatment of KK this year tells me he wasn't 100% on board with keeping KK in the NHL. Julien uttered a telling remark recently when asked about the first pair defence, "I work with what I'm given." He used KK last year the best he could because that's what he was given. The minute he had other options, he cut his TOI.

Add to that the fact that KK 's wingers so far this season are among the top point-getters on the team and KK is the weak link on that line, and you can see why he's cutting his ice time.

Julien sees his job as winning games. He thinks KK can't help him and from what I've seen so far this year I agree with him. The kid should be sent down to the AHL where he can properly work on his game. He can get all the ice time, offensive wingers and PP shifts desired by his fans.

 

[Kriss E]

Is it Julien or a mandate from ownership (re: making playoffs this season)? Just asking, I’ve got no way of knowing but more & more I get the sense MBs the perfect puppet for ownership. I’ve always suspected the “reset” term was imposed on MB from ownership.

Bergevin does not seem at all like someone who would accept to just follow orders and be a puppet. His ego and pride seem way too huge for him to just shut up and do whatever ownership tells him.

 

[salbutera]

No way Subban gets dealt or Price gets resigned unless ownership okays it - especially in a too many cooks consortium scenario where all the various owners need to be kept happy. Expos were the poster child for consortium gone wrong.

My take - there’s only 31 GM jobs available - they are all cut from the same be a company guy cloth....if nothing else than for sheer survival. This is also why IMO there’s slim to no chance MB gets the axe even if Habs miss the playoffs. He’s proven he can take the heat from fans and media and let it roll out like water off a ducks back - deflecting away from ownership.

NHL Management boys club is the most conservative of the major pro-North American sports. Dubas & Chayka is an attempt at breaking the mold...we’ll see how that unfolds long term. Perhaps it sets wheels in motion for innovative change.

 

[salbutera]

millennial take?

 

[Mrb1p]

millennial take?

You lost bobby, the Habs have been losers for 30 years bobby.

 

[Habs Icing]

KKs wingers are doing great but KK is the weak link.
Boomers: bench him.

Dunnos wingers are doing great but hes clearly a weak link on that line.
Boomers: Phillip

You got a problem with reading comprehension, Bobby. No boomer advocated benching KK. Sending him to the A that's another matter but I wonder if you can grasp the nuanced difference between two.

 

[Mrb1p]

You got a problem with reading comprehension, Bobby. No boomer advocated benching KK. Sending him to the A that's another matter but I wonder if you can grasp the nuanced difference between two.

Julien sees his job as winning games. He thinks KK can't help him and from what I've seen so far this year I agree with him.

 

[Leon Lucius Black]

Julien's job is to win games. Player development is Bouchard's job in the organization.

We don't know for certain if last year's decision to keep KK on the team had Julien's complete endorsement. I suspect Bicep Marc - and the PR department - strong-armed him to make that decision.

Julien's treatment of KK this year tells me he wasn't 100% on board with keeping KK in the NHL. Julien uttered a telling remark recently when asked about the first pair defence, "I work with what I'm given." He used KK last year the best he could because that's what he was given. The minute he had other options, he cut his TOI.

Add to that the fact that KK 's wingers so far this season are among the top point-getters on the team and KK is the weak link on that line, and you can see why he's cutting his ice time.

Julien sees his job as winning games. He thinks KK can't help him and from what I've seen so far this year I agree with him. The kid should be sent down to the AHL where he can properly work on his game. He can get all the ice time, offensive wingers and PP shifts desired by his fans.

Playing Armia the most among our forwards and giving significant minutes to a guy like Weal or Thompson won't help you win games either. It brings me back to Julien's first year back when he had Dwight King on the third line in the playoffs with Galchenyuk on our 4th line even though we couldn't score, then when Shaw got hurt Brian Flynn was centering our 3rd line instead of Galchenyuk in a do or die game. I don't have a problem if Julien is trying to win games with veterans who are actually good like Danault/Tatar for example, but trying to win games with guys like Weal is ridiculous.

Kotkaniemi in his first year as an 18 year old put up more points than any of Armia/Thompson/Weal ever have in a season. As of now Kotkaniemi is struggling at the moment, but he's a 19 year old with huge potential and if he starts playing with more confidence and reaching that potential he can easily help the team win.

 

[417]

Julien's job is to win games. Player development is Bouchard's job in the organization.

I don't agree whatsoever with this...winning and development aren't mutually exclusive, not for CJ, not for Bouchard and not for any coach.

One of the biggest myths in hockey is that the NHL is not a developmental league.

It's 2019 man...like it or not, young players are playing and making an impact (while developing) all over the NHL.

Even older players can continue to develop. Look at how much a guy like Jeff Petry has developed since he arrived in Montreal, he's now BY FAR our best Dman.

What do you call that???

We don't know for certain if last year's decision to keep KK on the team had Julien's complete endorsement. I suspect Bicep Marc - and the PR department - strong-armed him to make that decision.

Yes, you're probably right about this.

Julien's treatment of KK this year tells me he wasn't 100% on board with keeping KK in the NHL. Julien uttered a telling remark recently when asked about the first pair defence, "I work with what I'm given." He used KK last year the best he could because that's what he was given. The minute he had other options, he cut his TOI.

And the team hasn't been the same since.

Add to that the fact that KK 's wingers so far this season are among the top point-getters on the team and KK is the weak link on that line, and you can see why he's cutting his ice time.

His wingers also play the PP and benefit from more opportunities then Kotkaniemi does.

Julien sees his job as winning games. He thinks KK can't help him and from what I've seen so far this year I agree with him. The kid should be sent down to the AHL where he can properly work on his game. He can get all the ice time, offensive wingers and PP shifts desired by his fans.

Yes, CJ's got tunnel vision, short-term vision thinking that guys like Weal and/or Thompson increase his chances of winning when IMO, that couldn't be further from the truth.

Also, can we please stop with the talk about sending him to Laval???

It makes zero sense at this point.

Is sending him to Laval going to stop Claude Julien from using Weal on the PP?

 

[Habs178]

Nah, has nothing to do with what he sees in practice, it has everything to do with the player's experience/ age. Same issue Bruins fans had with CJ back when he was there.

I'm not a Weal hater either, but CJ's love for Weal is uncanny.

Can you imagine missing the playoffs again and in the process not develop the youngsters? What a massive failure it will be IMO.

I feel like this is exactly what's going to happen. The writing is right there on the wall for all to see.

 

[ahmedou]

Even the Kotkaniemi's smile, they'll cut or scratch this. Wait for it.

 

[Frank Drebin]

Bergevin does not seem at all like someone who would accept to just follow orders and be a puppet. His ego and pride seem way too huge for him to just shut up and do whatever ownership tells him.

Do you think Bergevin's ego would allow him to do anything other than to assemble and run a team that does as well as possible in the standings?

 

[Habs178]

The correct course of action seems pretty clear to me at this point. Play KK and Suzuki at center and give them some minutes and use Thompson as an extra or winger.

Let's be real here, this team's window isn't open yet and by the time it does, Thompson will be gone. Live with the mistakes this year and work on fixing them. Next year we'll be much better off for it.

Too much logical in the post.

 

[Frank Drebin]

Even older players can continue to develop. Look at how much a guy like Jeff Petry has developed since he arrived in Montreal, he's now BY FAR our best Dman.

What do you call that???

Speaking of Petry, he was essentially a 5-7 Goal, 15-25 point defender for the first seven years of being a pro. His minutes from the day he entered the league have averaged around 20-22.

How does one explain the sudden rise in production and for lack of a better word, improvement in his game that occurred right around his 30th birthday?

 

[salbutera]

Combination of Luke Richardson & the overnight landscape change of size + skating ability requirement for Dman IMO - fans may one day look back at the additions of Richardson, Dom Dom and Jo Jo as game changers

 

[Kriss E]

Do you think Bergevin's ego would allow him to do anything other than to assemble and run a team that does as well as possible in the standings?

 

[Frank Drebin]

The poster you quoted said that he believes Bergevin's mandate is to make the playoffs every season. (I happen to believe that as well) And that he's the perfect puppet for management.

You said you think that MB is too proud to be a puppet.

I said that I think MB is also too proud to sacrifice points in the standings with the team that he built.

 

[blarneylad]

Interesting fact:

Kotkaniemi in his rookie season recorded 34 points.

Jordan Weal's career high is 21 points.

 

[Kriss E]

The poster you quoted said that he believes Bergevin's mandate is to make the playoffs every season. (I happen to believe that as well) And that he's the perfect puppet for management.

You said you think that MB is too proud to be a puppet.

I said that I think MB is also too proud to sacrifice points in the standings with the team that he built.

Correct. I think the directives are coming from Bergey and him alone.

 

[Frank Drebin]

Correct. I think the directives are coming from Bergey and him alone.

This may be true. But making the playoffs every year and keeping the building full is what every owner would ultimately want anyways. So, even if Bergevin isn't a puppet to Molson's desires, they have the same values.

 

[Tighthead]

Do you think Bergevin's ego would allow him to do anything other than to assemble and run a team that does as well as possible in the standings?

I don't think his intellect permits him to make decisions that make anything beyond about a 4 month horizon the absolute foremost priority.

 

[Captain Mountain]

Speaking of Petry, he was essentially a 5-7 Goal, 15-25 point defender for the first seven years of being a pro. His minutes from the day he entered the league have averaged around 20-22.

How does one explain the sudden rise in production and for lack of a better word, improvement in his game that occurred right around his 30th birthday?

PP opportunity is by far the biggest reason. He's generally been a pretty consistent ES point producer (2013-2016 being a bit of a down stretch mostly down to some terrible D partners).

That's the dirty little secret for production and D though. Most D that don't get real PP time end up looking lacking points-wise (for instance, from the 2017-2018 to now, Petry and Chiarot have identical 5v5 P/60). That doesn't mean any D can produce on the PP or be productive offensively, but there are almost definitely D out there that get undervalued by fans as a whole due to lack of PP opportunities.

 

[Frank Drebin]

PP opportunity is by far the biggest reason. He's generally been a pretty consistent ES point producer (2013-2016 being a bit of a down stretch mostly down to some terrible D partners).

That's the dirty little secret for production and D though. Most D that don't get real PP time end up looking lacking points-wise (for instance, from the 2017-2018 to now, Petry and Chiarot have identical 5v5 P/60). That doesn't mean any D can produce on the PP or be productive offensively, but there are almost definitely D out there that get undervalued by fans as a whole due to lack of PP opportunities.

But Petry is not only a more productive defenseman, he's a better defenseman than he was 3-4 seasons ago. Or do you disagree with that?

 

[Kriss E]

This may be true. But making the playoffs every year and keeping the building full is what every owner would ultimately want anyways. So, even if Bergevin isn't a puppet to Molson's desires, they have the same values.

Maybe if we had another owner, but Molson seems to be completely wrapped around Bergey's finger. That's the only way to explain how he has not yet been fired and Molson going as far as to say he's excited about the prospect of what this team could possibly become in the next 3 to.....8 years!!
Ya....Bergey is leading the Habs...Molson will follow whatever Bergey tells him is the best route to take.