BK
"Goalie Apologist"
Funny because Kevin Weeks just said the opposite.
I mean if you have to bring yuppie into your hockey argument it shows how much you have...
Jeremy Colliton thread
- Thread starter Blackhawkswincup
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Funny because Kevin Weeks just said the opposite.
I mean if you have to bring yuppie into your hockey argument it shows how much you have...
KWP
Registered User
Nail, meet hammer head.
Timing really is everything. And throw in ego, too.
Re the former, I remember when FLA canned Gallant thinking, "That's who we need NOW" 'member it was mid-sinking of the SS Quenneville era.
The latter, and I remember Colliton being groomed while water filling up the Q's bow and thinking. "This is Bowman's guy ..."
Full disclosure: I think too much stipulated - and use too many bad sailing metaphors - but Colliton may have been pushed too far too fast. I do think he has the smarts to be an NHL head coach, just that the circumstances in this particular case (and each one unique of course), not looking good present tense ...
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AmericanDream
Thank you Elon!
I also do think there needs to be some actual talking/investigating into JC and Saad...it does seem like there is an issue there for some reason..I cannot substantiate that but Saad has been one of the better players so far and seems to not be getting more ice time he is earning. Saad last year at this time was a complete f***ing turd, and Q handled him correctly by calling his ass out, practicing him as if he was going to be scratched to try and get what we all know is there on a consistent basis. But Saad has played very well in my eyes and if you are going to break up the third line, he is a player that needs to get more ice time..
People are also jumping the gun in my eyes with the whole Kubalik thing. He is new to North America (NHL wise), needs more time to understand who he is and what he can provide...yes he played great yesterday but has been up and down since camp. I have been one of his vocal supporters since last years World Championships, I said this guy should be stapled to Kane and Toews and see what he can do..but I can see what JC is trying to do as sparking Toew sand Kane is a hell of a lot more important than a third line clicking. I also get why some people would be upset with splitting that line up, but JC is trying to get our star players going, and that was the problem last year as when our stars went quiet, the team sunk...the rest couldn't pick up that ball..JC in my eyes is trying to prevent that from happening for stretches as well, and yes Toews has looked more like the Toews from 2-3 years ago then the one from last year so far...hot takes all around including mine, but JC does need to answer some questions and get on a consistent page here.
People are also jumping the gun in my eyes with the whole Kubalik thing. He is new to North America (NHL wise), needs more time to understand who he is and what he can provide...yes he played great yesterday but has been up and down since camp. I have been one of his vocal supporters since last years World Championships, I said this guy should be stapled to Kane and Toews and see what he can do..but I can see what JC is trying to do as sparking Toew sand Kane is a hell of a lot more important than a third line clicking. I also get why some people would be upset with splitting that line up, but JC is trying to get our star players going, and that was the problem last year as when our stars went quiet, the team sunk...the rest couldn't pick up that ball..JC in my eyes is trying to prevent that from happening for stretches as well, and yes Toews has looked more like the Toews from 2-3 years ago then the one from last year so far...hot takes all around including mine, but JC does need to answer some questions and get on a consistent page here.
Kaners Bald Spot
Registered User
If he doesn't adapt, yeah. Idk what to do with him really. He's not getting fired 5 games into the season anyway so it's not even worth discussing. What I meant by the "3 more games" comment was that I needed to see 3-5 more games before I was sure I wanted him fired. Not that he should be fired in 3 more games. That's unrealistic. Sorry for the miscommunication.
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crazyhawk
Registered User
We’ve lost two games by one goal granted the first game was more lopsided .. all is not lost Blackhawk faithfull .. remember St. Louis last year. Have faith and chill cause it’s a long season. And worst comes to worse we get Lafreniere or Bayfield or ...
or top 5 and go with one of those europeans. one of Lucas Raymond or Anton Lundell is my choice.
crazyhawk
Registered User
Indeed LDF! Moral of the story is that life goes on and ... “always look at the bright side of life .. whistle whistle .. whistle whistle.. whistle whistle.. whistle whistle.
Systems vs personnel right.
Sorry for the long post but I wanted to dig into the systems a little more after last night. I went back and rewatched the game focusing what we do systematically plus tried to base everything on the articles and interview that are out there regarding the systems. Of course there must be much more wrinkles to the whole system, but at least lets discuss the main points. Im no expert, so if you see something i missed out or i got something wrong, let me know.
Here are the things that i saw:
1. We play man to man: I know last season we switched to a hybrid, so im not sure if early this season we are back to full man to man or still doing the hybrid
Clearly we play man to man where our defensemen try to pick up their guy and get into their bodies asap. They are allowed to follow their guy to some degree so if a guy crosses behind our net the guy who has him can cross with him, the other d switches to his side to cover. Similar if there is any east-to west puck carrying. This doesnt happen always so i think its the guys on the ice that decide how tod o it and communicate with it, when to switch guys, when to keep with them.
There is always one d that needs to be in front of the net, so when theyre crossing like this its extra important to sort out the new positions. Our d need to be heads up and know when to prioritize positioning. Needs to clear the crease/tie up the guy’s stick in front.
As others were discussing in the GDT, if there is a pinned down guy in the corner, the other d can come and overhelp – in this case the center covers his spot. If both d are behind the net or over to a corner in a battle or just because majority of offensive guys are there, the center covers the front of the net. Also they probably communicate when a wing/center takes over for the other d in these situations so the d can stay in front of net.
Our problems: You need to be able to handle your guys man to man, many times Seabs cannot, gets pushed falls etc. Keith and Gus sometimes struggle with this too as they get overpowered, cant be strong with their stick. Causes breakdowns.
You need to be in sync with your partner and make the correct reads and communications but Seabs (like 80% of the time its him), Gus (sometimes) and 4K (sometimes) either doesnt make the correct read and overhelps or doesnt make the correct read and doesnt cover what his partner leaves open.
Only Muprhy, Maatta and Keith seems to do this well consistently, of course all we need is one breakdown and its all gone bad. The other guys are prone to leaving open areas, the front of the net. Causes breakdowns.
2. Forward positioning int he d-zone
It seems ideally the two wingers are tasked to cover the defensemen at the point, the center hangs back towards the middle of the ice and helps the d. If there is a heavier battle or more bodies on one side, the winger ont hat side hangs back too and participates. Once the puck is moved below goal line, both the wingers jump much closer to the goal and cover the dots.
Our problems: Strome is pretty bad at this because he doesnt make fast turns so can lag behind when there is puck movement. Carpenter I thought can be slow at this too. Those two get beat often or are just chasing the puck from side to side. Toews and Kampf are good with active sticks good positioning.
Only Saad, Kubalik, Shaw and Cagguila force battles. The rest of our wings while often in position are not impactful because theyre not forcing battles or having active sticks. (Brinksy improving to his credit). Its not enough, you saw the impact of puck hounds last night with our 3rd line and what that does, compared to just inactively positioned guys on lines. Can cause issues because our wings arent taking away pucks and clearing.
3. Forward forechecking
Ideally its our two wings forechecking, but of course many times it makes sense for the center to go with one wing. If the center forechecks with the first wing, the second wing assumes his position and hangs back. Ideally the center gets back quick and goes back to his responsibilities and the wing goes out again, but many times there is no time. Probably the guys communicate to each other if they have time to switch back, but many times i see there is no time so the wing stays as the center. Important that he assumes the same responsibilities as the center and the center does the win duties. The forwards need to be a unit, communicate properly. I thought Smith was really good at this last night, but it might be just coz he forgot he wasnt playing center lol.
The point of forechecking is to force pressure and puck battles ont he d/along the boards. Either by being physical or with active sticks.
Our problems: once again, only Saad, Kubalik, Shaw and Cagguila (Toew + Kampf too) manage to create battles ont he forecheck. The others arent impactful (Birnks improving). Our forecheck overall is very unimpactful this way, so our whole defending suffers as a result and we are already behind.
Many of our wings dont have the defensive instincts that help them cover for a center when they need to. Ala Nylander on that goal. Because the forecheck can sometimes mean a winger is the 1 hanging back, our wingers need to be able to assume center duties, active sticks, fast movement etc. Nylander, Kane, DeBrincat i think arent too good at that. Causes many breakdowns.
4. Defensemen when forechecking
They want them to step up on the blueline not simply hang back. So ideally our guys get into them asap, maintain close gap control and help out the forecheck by compressing the free space. For this to work the guys need to be smart and realize when they can do it more aggressively, when they need to cover for the partner that is doing it more aggressively. They also need to be able to skate backwards and not get beat by forwards. IQ and skating.
Our problems: Seabrook is bad at this. He doesnt have the skating so he mostly hangs back. The other guys seem to have problems with this often too, so they instead just keep it safe. Murphy and Maatta i think are usually fine here. But our overall forecheck suffers a ton because of this, and it is already bad from the forwards. We dont have puck pressure almost at all. We can have bad pinches too but at least we cleaned those up well.
5. Defenseman transitioning out
If the quick outlet pass is there thats first priority. If not JC wants the d to carry the puck up ice to create more opportunities and push the forwards back for clean entries.
Our problems: I dont need to say anything here, we all know. Only Gus and Maatta can do this well. Keith and 4K fumble way too much. Murphy isnt someone to do it too much, Seabs has the passes but thats it. Once again, it leads to problems because we make it harder to have entries and the enemy forwards can cause way too much pressure for our d (and often they cant handle it).
Sorry for the long post but I wanted to dig into the systems a little more after last night. I went back and rewatched the game focusing what we do systematically plus tried to base everything on the articles and interview that are out there regarding the systems. Of course there must be much more wrinkles to the whole system, but at least lets discuss the main points. Im no expert, so if you see something i missed out or i got something wrong, let me know.
Here are the things that i saw:
1. We play man to man: I know last season we switched to a hybrid, so im not sure if early this season we are back to full man to man or still doing the hybrid
Clearly we play man to man where our defensemen try to pick up their guy and get into their bodies asap. They are allowed to follow their guy to some degree so if a guy crosses behind our net the guy who has him can cross with him, the other d switches to his side to cover. Similar if there is any east-to west puck carrying. This doesnt happen always so i think its the guys on the ice that decide how tod o it and communicate with it, when to switch guys, when to keep with them.
There is always one d that needs to be in front of the net, so when theyre crossing like this its extra important to sort out the new positions. Our d need to be heads up and know when to prioritize positioning. Needs to clear the crease/tie up the guy’s stick in front.
As others were discussing in the GDT, if there is a pinned down guy in the corner, the other d can come and overhelp – in this case the center covers his spot. If both d are behind the net or over to a corner in a battle or just because majority of offensive guys are there, the center covers the front of the net. Also they probably communicate when a wing/center takes over for the other d in these situations so the d can stay in front of net.
Our problems: You need to be able to handle your guys man to man, many times Seabs cannot, gets pushed falls etc. Keith and Gus sometimes struggle with this too as they get overpowered, cant be strong with their stick. Causes breakdowns.
You need to be in sync with your partner and make the correct reads and communications but Seabs (like 80% of the time its him), Gus (sometimes) and 4K (sometimes) either doesnt make the correct read and overhelps or doesnt make the correct read and doesnt cover what his partner leaves open.
Only Muprhy, Maatta and Keith seems to do this well consistently, of course all we need is one breakdown and its all gone bad. The other guys are prone to leaving open areas, the front of the net. Causes breakdowns.
2. Forward positioning int he d-zone
It seems ideally the two wingers are tasked to cover the defensemen at the point, the center hangs back towards the middle of the ice and helps the d. If there is a heavier battle or more bodies on one side, the winger ont hat side hangs back too and participates. Once the puck is moved below goal line, both the wingers jump much closer to the goal and cover the dots.
Our problems: Strome is pretty bad at this because he doesnt make fast turns so can lag behind when there is puck movement. Carpenter I thought can be slow at this too. Those two get beat often or are just chasing the puck from side to side. Toews and Kampf are good with active sticks good positioning.
Only Saad, Kubalik, Shaw and Cagguila force battles. The rest of our wings while often in position are not impactful because theyre not forcing battles or having active sticks. (Brinksy improving to his credit). Its not enough, you saw the impact of puck hounds last night with our 3rd line and what that does, compared to just inactively positioned guys on lines. Can cause issues because our wings arent taking away pucks and clearing.
3. Forward forechecking
Ideally its our two wings forechecking, but of course many times it makes sense for the center to go with one wing. If the center forechecks with the first wing, the second wing assumes his position and hangs back. Ideally the center gets back quick and goes back to his responsibilities and the wing goes out again, but many times there is no time. Probably the guys communicate to each other if they have time to switch back, but many times i see there is no time so the wing stays as the center. Important that he assumes the same responsibilities as the center and the center does the win duties. The forwards need to be a unit, communicate properly. I thought Smith was really good at this last night, but it might be just coz he forgot he wasnt playing center lol.
The point of forechecking is to force pressure and puck battles ont he d/along the boards. Either by being physical or with active sticks.
Our problems: once again, only Saad, Kubalik, Shaw and Cagguila (Toew + Kampf too) manage to create battles ont he forecheck. The others arent impactful (Birnks improving). Our forecheck overall is very unimpactful this way, so our whole defending suffers as a result and we are already behind.
Many of our wings dont have the defensive instincts that help them cover for a center when they need to. Ala Nylander on that goal. Because the forecheck can sometimes mean a winger is the 1 hanging back, our wingers need to be able to assume center duties, active sticks, fast movement etc. Nylander, Kane, DeBrincat i think arent too good at that. Causes many breakdowns.
4. Defensemen when forechecking
They want them to step up on the blueline not simply hang back. So ideally our guys get into them asap, maintain close gap control and help out the forecheck by compressing the free space. For this to work the guys need to be smart and realize when they can do it more aggressively, when they need to cover for the partner that is doing it more aggressively. They also need to be able to skate backwards and not get beat by forwards. IQ and skating.
Our problems: Seabrook is bad at this. He doesnt have the skating so he mostly hangs back. The other guys seem to have problems with this often too, so they instead just keep it safe. Murphy and Maatta i think are usually fine here. But our overall forecheck suffers a ton because of this, and it is already bad from the forwards. We dont have puck pressure almost at all. We can have bad pinches too but at least we cleaned those up well.
5. Defenseman transitioning out
If the quick outlet pass is there thats first priority. If not JC wants the d to carry the puck up ice to create more opportunities and push the forwards back for clean entries.
Our problems: I dont need to say anything here, we all know. Only Gus and Maatta can do this well. Keith and 4K fumble way too much. Murphy isnt someone to do it too much, Seabs has the passes but thats it. Once again, it leads to problems because we make it harder to have entries and the enemy forwards can cause way too much pressure for our d (and often they cant handle it).
TLDR:
1. Playing man to man: Seabs (often), Keith, Gus has trouble handling this sometimes. Seabs (most of the time!!), Gus, 4K prone to lose their position and have brainfarts not connecting to their partner. – causes lots of breakdowns
2. Forward positioning in d zone: Strome and Carpenter are unimpactful and get beat. Kane, Brinksy, Nylander, Smith dont force battles.
3. Forward forechecking: Most of our forecheckers suck, we dont have pressure. Most our wings have hard time filling in for the forechecking center – causes breakdowns.
4. Defensemen forechecking: most our guys cant compress the zone, because we cant skate back or win the 50/50s.
5. Defensemen transitioning out: pretty clear we dont have enough guys.
I dont see anything from JC that would be too different from other teams in the league. I mean surely improvements can be made right, but more like finetuning. But Seabrook, 4K and Keith arent too good for this system imo. And we have way too many forwards who arent good defensively/at puck battles, forechecking.
Maybe we need a change in the d zone coverage to help out our bad defensemen, or get in some that can handle that better. But we need better effort from our wingers and some centers, or more players that can actually do stuff defensively.
So I lean much more towards us not having the personnel rather than it being a systems issues. With that said JC needs to recognize how to best help his team and the players he got. de Haan will help a lot, but we still have Seabs and the bad defensive forwards.
Those two are the biggest issues. Limit Seabs’ minutes (ideally Keith too but he isn’t the primary issue) and balance the lines out so they all have more defense on them (if that’s even possible).
1. Playing man to man: Seabs (often), Keith, Gus has trouble handling this sometimes. Seabs (most of the time!!), Gus, 4K prone to lose their position and have brainfarts not connecting to their partner. – causes lots of breakdowns
2. Forward positioning in d zone: Strome and Carpenter are unimpactful and get beat. Kane, Brinksy, Nylander, Smith dont force battles.
3. Forward forechecking: Most of our forecheckers suck, we dont have pressure. Most our wings have hard time filling in for the forechecking center – causes breakdowns.
4. Defensemen forechecking: most our guys cant compress the zone, because we cant skate back or win the 50/50s.
5. Defensemen transitioning out: pretty clear we dont have enough guys.
I dont see anything from JC that would be too different from other teams in the league. I mean surely improvements can be made right, but more like finetuning. But Seabrook, 4K and Keith arent too good for this system imo. And we have way too many forwards who arent good defensively/at puck battles, forechecking.
Maybe we need a change in the d zone coverage to help out our bad defensemen, or get in some that can handle that better. But we need better effort from our wingers and some centers, or more players that can actually do stuff defensively.
So I lean much more towards us not having the personnel rather than it being a systems issues. With that said JC needs to recognize how to best help his team and the players he got. de Haan will help a lot, but we still have Seabs and the bad defensive forwards.
Those two are the biggest issues. Limit Seabs’ minutes (ideally Keith too but he isn’t the primary issue) and balance the lines out so they all have more defense on them (if that’s even possible).
CallMeShaft
Calder Bedard Fan
- Apr 14, 2014
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I have not been much of a fan of Colliton, and I've been becoming more critical of him now that he's starting the season as the coach.
However, it's way too early to talk about his departure. He'll get the season and I think, if Hawks remove Bowman at that point, the new GM will decide if JC stays or not.
But you gotta love the fact that BWC feels so insecure that he had to make this thread. Yes, we get it, Q is the guy who can do nothing wrong in your eye and Colliton is the asshole who stole his job. Move the f*** off it already, the shtick has grown tiring.
However, it's way too early to talk about his departure. He'll get the season and I think, if Hawks remove Bowman at that point, the new GM will decide if JC stays or not.
But you gotta love the fact that BWC feels so insecure that he had to make this thread. Yes, we get it, Q is the guy who can do nothing wrong in your eye and Colliton is the asshole who stole his job. Move the f*** off it already, the shtick has grown tiring.
Kaners Bald Spot
Registered User
I have no problems with people saying that the Hawks need more forwards that are defensively responsible. I think that's a huge issue more than anything. Strome, DeBrincat, Nylander, and Kane are all offense first guys. I think they need to mix it up so that the forward lines are more balanced. I think the line construction is an issue. Just a thought, but:
20-19-92
65-77-88
12-17-8
91-64-11
I hope they can find a way to dump Smith.
20-19-92
65-77-88
12-17-8
91-64-11
I hope they can find a way to dump Smith.
RememberTheRoar
“I’m not as worried about the 5-on-5 scoring.”
Lots of f***ing changes today. Colliton isn't bind to the fact that things weren't working the first two games.
Also, Nylander for some reason appears to be the biggest loser in all this.
Glad to see that third line together though.
Hawkaholic
Registered User
Kaners Bald Spot
Registered User
I am. He's not the problem. The forward lines aren't balanced for O/D properly.
RememberTheRoar
“I’m not as worried about the 5-on-5 scoring.”
He's kind of a victim of circumstance here. I don't think he was the worst Blackhawk forward over the first two games.
Toews2Bickell
It's Showtime
- Nov 24, 2013
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by the way your boy Q has transitioned his dogshit system down to south beach quite effectively...bobrovsky single handedly f***ed me over in fantasy this week thanks to Q and Kitchen
Hawkaholic
Registered User
Toews2Bickell
It's Showtime
- Nov 24, 2013
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holy overreaction...Crawford was getting that home start under any coach unless he was hurt
CallMeShaft
Calder Bedard Fan
- Apr 14, 2014
- 15,873
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Nylander is young and prone to mistakes, but he made a lot of them yesterday. What had been our top line (Nylander-Toews-Kane) was constantly getting stuck in their own zone and when Nylander was moved to the 3rd line, he was still getting stuck in his own zone. The effort needs to be there defensively or you need to be a Kane/Cat caliber of player. He hasn't been either, so he sits until he learns.
Kaners Bald Spot
Registered User
That's based on line construction more than anything else. The line combos are poorly constructed. They don't have a mix of offense and defense on them.
92-19-88 is bad because Toews can't carry Nylander and Kane by himself, and this is the biggest issue.
the other lines have been fine, but you need your best players to be your best players. Nylander has been fine in a vacuum, but with Toews and Kane it isn't working. I'm not sure Toews and Kane should be on the same line. They're bleeding scoring chances regardless of whether or not Nylander is on their left wing.
CallMeShaft
Calder Bedard Fan
- Apr 14, 2014
- 15,873
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Well, stop liking our players. It's obviously having a negative effect.Everytime I pick a Hawk to do well, JC seems to hate very quickly.First Joker and now Nylander.
RememberTheRoar
“I’m not as worried about the 5-on-5 scoring.”
The numbers didn't improve when Nylander was swapped for Kubalik. Nylander wasn't the reason for that line being ass and getting pinned in its own zone, that's on Toews and Kane.
Toews2Bickell
It's Showtime
- Nov 24, 2013
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Nylander sort of brings a redundant skill set and I think thats going to make it harder for him to stick if the team is losing simply because JC will look at him and think I got this kinda player already in spades, I need something different..I don't get why he's scratched though...If JC wants to send real messages start with 7...
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