Player Discussion Jay Beagle

[timw33]

Additionally, you get a Barbashev outplaying his bottom-6 minutes on a dirt cheap contract by actually being willing to play and develop young players in bottom-6 minutes.

This team under this coach has no interest in doing such a thing. If Barbashev was in this organization, he’d be parked behind Schaller and Beagle, just like Gaunce and MacEwen.

Develop your own bottom-6 guys and use up the 7 cheap, team controlled years instead of going out and paying $12MM to a UFA who just used up the last of his good years putting his body on the line to win a cup for another franchise.

Trying to brainstorm some other examples of bad contracts handed out after Stanley Cup win. I remember the 4 year $10MM contract to Pisani after a completely unsustainable 14 goal playoffs (and that was in a losing effort). Or if there are any good contracts handed out to new cup winners would be curious to see what that list looks like.

 

[VanJack]

It's one thing to be in cap-hell because you're overpaying some of your top players. But when you're in cap purgatory because of ridiculous money and term for bottom-of-the-lineup depth players who should be making around the league minimum, well that's beyond depressing. But welcome to Canucklehead land.

 

[F A N]

Note: this ended up turning into a much bigger research project than anticipated and is not meant as a dig at anyone but just general observations about the previous 4 cup winners and their cap structure

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The actual factor that matters is that each of these teams had a large set of players making under $1MMish who outperformed their contracts, thus allowing them to pay and retain their star players and make it all fit under the cap, and, when replaceable players want to get paid they don't pony up and let them walk.

STL:

Sundqvist Barbashev Thomas Blais Sanford Dunn Fabbri all under $1MM. This group alone produced 13 goals 14 assists 37 points in the playoffs for a combined total of $5.53MM.

Jordan Binnington made $650k and gave them 16 wins.

Maroon at 1.75MM and got them 3G 4A in playoffs. Only eggregious contract is the Steen one @$5.375MM, and that didn't prevent them from retaining any of their core players.

WSH:

Last year of a sweetheart $4MM John Carlson deal pretty critical to their cup, but they had fantastic playoff contributions from Wilson ($2MM) Vrana ($863K) Connolly ($1.5MM) Smith-Pelly ($650k) Stephenson ($650k) Kempny ($900k). 25 goals, 27 assists, 52 points in the playoffs for just shy of $6MM.

One bad contract in Orpik's $4.9MM.


PIT:

For both years it was a mix of Sub $1MM players in Sheary Rust Guentzel Kunhakl Dumoulin Cullen, cheap Schultz ($1.4MM, $1.9MM), paying $650k a year for 2 Matt Murray cup runs, and the $1.9MM Bonino (LOL).

No egregious contracts that prevented them from retaining their high end players.

_______________

Many of these teams did have to let a couple pieces of their cup team go because of cap constraints, but they replaced them with cheap fungible depth guys, case in point: Washington not paying Jay Beagle a "thank you for your service" contract and replacing him with Nic Dowd at 25% the cost. Also: Letting Smith-Pelly walk, Getting a 2nd and 3rd for Burakovsky and giving that opportunity to Vrana who is thriving.

STL let Maroon walk and replaced him internally.

Penguins seem to just constantly call up guys who have had their names randomly generated these days and plug them right into the system when half their team goes down to injury and they just win a bunch of games anways.

Thanks for the research. And I think a team can win the Cup with Virtanen and Leivo on the 4th line or Hughes on an ELC. Timing is often important but when it comes to trying to build a team, Binnington making $650K and giving the Blues 16 wins is irrelevant unless your philosophy is to spend as little on goaltending as possible.

And I agree that a team is unlikely to win the Cup when you have several "egregious contracts" on the books. But if the Canucks were to win the Cup, Beagle's contract isn't going to prevent them from winning. Eriksson's might. Sutter's as well unless he's providing higher end 3rd line production and contributions. Sometimes you need to move out good players to re-sign guys. Washington letting Smith-Pellly walk was not worth mentioning. Trading Niskanen is.

The above does illustrate the need to draft and develop well. That's where the depth is going to come from. The Capitals is an example of what I mean by trying to make multiple runs with the same core. They draft and develop well so they can move players for picks and then either rinse and repeat or move those picks for players. Look at the players they drafted since the Ovechkin draft.

 

[timw33]

Thanks for the research. And I think a team can win the Cup with Virtanen and Leivo on the 4th line or Hughes on an ELC. Timing is often important but when it comes to trying to build a team, Binnington making $650K and giving the Blues 16 wins is irrelevant unless your philosophy is to spend as little on goaltending as possible.

And I agree that a team is unlikely to win the Cup when you have several "egregious contracts" on the books. But if the Canucks were to win the Cup, Beagle's contract isn't going to prevent them from winning. Eriksson's might. Sutter's as well unless he's providing higher end 3rd line production and contributions. Sometimes you need to move out good players to re-sign guys. Washington letting Smith-Pellly walk was not worth mentioning. Trading Niskanen is.

The above does illustrate the need to draft and develop well. That's where the depth is going to come from. The Capitals is an example of what I mean by trying to make multiple runs with the same core. They draft and develop well so they can move players for picks and then either rinse and repeat or move those picks for players. Look at the players they drafted since the Ovechkin draft.

Totally spaced on Niskanen, that's a good example. Also forgot that they lost friggen Nate Schmidt in expansion the year of their cup run. Shows what a great pro scouting move grabbing Kempny was at the deadline for a 3rd round pick.

I think the main issue is the sheer amount of underperforming contracts we have on the books that are like $3-4MM, with a pair of $6MM contracts that are also going to severely underperform.

Recently this administration has not been able to move out significant salary without taking back near equal cap and term (Spooner/Gagner, Pearson/Gudbranson). Like, they haven't been able to unload a salary for a late round pick even, and every team knows the precarious situation we're in and aren't willing to help us out without us throwing in a sweetener.

I think I just have a hard time believing that they are going to be able to open up cap space for our limited group of good players when they haven't, in their body of work, demonstrated the ability to do so.

I also don't believe in the developmental system as it stands, as it has been unable to develop and graduate prospects in any respectable quality or quantity over the last 6 seasons. The successful young players have largely avoided any significant time with our AHL franchise.

This is why people worry about the near and long term future of this franchise and it's chances of not just being a 1st round flop.

 

[F A N]

Totally spaced on Niskanen, that's a good example. Also forgot that they lost friggen Nate Schmidt in expansion the year of their cup run. Shows what a great pro scouting move grabbing Kempny was at the deadline for a 3rd round pick.

I think the main issue is the sheer amount of underperforming contracts we have on the books that are like $3-4MM, with a pair of $6MM contracts that are also going to severely underperform.

Recently this administration has not been able to move out significant salary without taking back near equal cap and term (Spooner/Gagner, Pearson/Gudbranson). Like, they haven't been able to unload a salary for a late round pick even, and every team knows the precarious situation we're in and aren't willing to help us out without us throwing in a sweetener.

I think I just have a hard time believing that they are going to be able to open up cap space for our limited group of good players when they haven't, in their body of work, demonstrated the ability to do so.

I also don't believe in the developmental system as it stands, as it has been unable to develop and graduate prospects in any respectable quality or quantity over the last 6 seasons. The successful young players have largely avoided any significant time with our AHL franchise.

This is why people worry about the near and long term future of this franchise and it's chances of not just being a 1st round flop.

Yes. Benning's inability and or reluctance to acquire draft picks annoys me too and I agree that having underperforming contracts is problematic.

Interestingly, the 3rd that went for Kempny is actually our very own Linus Karlsson. The Capitals acquired that pick as part of the return for Marcus Johansson, a player picked 2 spots below Schroeder.

In terms of development I kind of suspect that what you want to do is avoid ruining a player's development. I mean it's hard to identify which prospects were actually successful examples of player development and which prospects developed regardless of development. Keeping with the Capitals, Tom Wilson was a former 16th overall pick. He was stapled to Beagle's line to begin his career and looked like a career bottom 6 forward until his 5th NHL season. Vrana is a former 13th overall pick whose development is basically in line with a good top 15 pick on a good team.

 

[Blue and Green]

Beagle's play has been granted almost a free pass from the mainstream sports media in Vancouver. When are they going to start asking the coach and management some tough questions about his play and his contract?

 

[timw33]

Beagle's play has been granted almost a free pass from the mainstream sports media in Vancouver. When are they going to start asking the coach and management some tough questions about his play and his contract?

Probably around the same time the sports media starts asking tough questions about Loui Eriksson's $36MM contract.

 

[megatron]

Beagle's play has been granted almost a free pass from the mainstream sports media in Vancouver. When are they going to start asking the coach and management some tough questions about his play and his contract?

I th8ik its fair to say the sports media in vancouver no longer plays a fair and objective role in vamcouver. Whoever owns the rights is a supporter and somewhat has to be... case in point Linden complaining to 1040 that they were being to negative. Then the station that doesnt have rights also doesnt want to be too negative either as they will try to secure rights the next time. Plus before you had reporters getting paid by the newspapers so they had freedom to speak. I dont want to make this about Benning but lets face it Benning is on easy street compared to how Burke had it here.

 

[PG Canuck]

Terrible player.

 

[Cupless44]

Terrible player.

He is. But it is really no surprise whatsoever. Like pretty well every Benning UFA signing, you completely know it is a brutual signing for a mediocre to poor player the very day it is signed.

 

[VanJack]

Beagle took two penalties, and the Sabers scored shortly after the first one expired and cashed in on his second...Both penalties for holding on Rasmus Dahlin when he stopped slating.

And noticed that line was being buried in terms of zone possession again, until Green shortened his bench and basically parked him for most of the third period. I really do wish they'd move Motte off that awful line permanently. The guy is relentless on the puck and does have some offense to his game....but basically wasted propping up Beagle and Schaller.

That Beagle contract still has two more years to run....it's going to seem interminable before it's over.

 

[VancouverJagger]

At the time Benning signed him I thought it was extremely curious considering our other needs (skill and D mainly). I was willing to extend him the benefit of the doubt however it's now apparent this was completely unnecessary. Just a total waste of a contract. And 4 years? Geezus..........Our 4th line tends to suck balls. I wish management had a clue that 4th lines should be made up of guys like MacEwen who are on league minimums. Totally ridiculous we have soo much money invested in our bottom six.

 

[Cupless44]

Beagle took two penalties, and the Sabres scored shortly after the first one expired and cashed in on his second...Both penalties for holding on Rasmus Dahlin when he stopped slating.

And noticed that line was being buried in terms of zone possession again, until Green shortened his bench and basically parked him for most of the third period. I really do wish they'd move Motte off that awful line permanently. The guy is relentless on the puck and does have some offense to his game....but basically wasted propping up Beagle and Schaller.

That Beagle contract still has two more years to run....it's going to seem interminable before it's over.

How many bad contracts on bad players that are unmoveable with term left can one GM cripple his team with?

 

[Diamonddog01]

I wonder if Washington would take him back...his salary is 2.2 and has one more signing bonus in the fourth year. Sutter (when healthy) can be the fourth line C

 

[David71]

Terrible player.

keeps getting worse everyday. line gets scored on. he takes two penalties that resulted in 2 buffalo goals.. smh.. a 800k player will probbaly do a way better job defending than beagle..

 

[PG Canuck]

I wonder if Washington would take him back...his salary is 2.2 and has one more signing bonus in the fourth year. Sutter (when healthy) can be the fourth line C

Caps have next to no cap space from a quick glance and I would assume Dowd is providing the exact same level of play as Beagle, but for 700K a year.

Odd how we basically made a trade with the Caps, Dowd for Beagle.

 

[VanJack]

Almost impossible to believe, but this Beagle contract might actually be worse than Eriksson's. Did I just say that? At least Eriksson can still move up and down lineup; and is a decent penalty killer. And he can still be effective along the wall.

Beagle on the other hand is stapled to the fourth line...what else can you do with a guy who only scores three goals on the season?. And he's not really a great penalty killer anymore either.

And that fourth line is just being buried alive in terms of zone time. It's getting ugly fast.

 

[Megaterio Llamas]

You gotta love those intangibles though. You see him on the bench slapping the shoulder pads of the young players when they finish a good shift? That encourages guys like Pettersson and Boeser to get out there and have another good shift.

This man is the definition of the kind of player Benning is talking about when he says 'he's a guy you win with.'

 

[polarbearcub]

I don’t expect much from beagle , but he’s been terrible this year.

will he get 3 goals ?

 

[UK Canuck]

just a horrific player in all areas of the game

 

[Hodgy]

A real Benning special. It was an obviously terrible contract when signed. Remember all the idiots in the media being like “this is a good contract if the term were smaller”. LOL. We just need to ignore two of the three most important aspects of the contract. God, the media are such shills here.

 

[Melvin]

I remember saying he wouldn't make it to 100 games or something like this. God I wish that were correct. Maybe if Sutter were healthy we could waive him. Never thought I'd pine for Brandon Sutter.

 

[Hockeyphysio]

we must lead the league in negative value contracts.

 

[Melvin]

we must lead the league in negative value contracts.

I dunno. Check out our opponent today.

 

[4Twenty]

I think it’s fair to bring up the 4th lines usage when critiquing these guys.

I think if you could get them below 10 minutes overall and not give them the insane dzone usage you’d find they’d look better.

I just don’t think Travis has the 3rd line he trusts to allow for that as long as Sutter is out.