Confirmed with Link: James "Stealth Tumor" Neal traded for Jesus Hornqvist, Nick Spaling - Part 2

[Liquid Gel]

Nothing against PH. But how can you not call him a 40 goal scorer. He's already done it here.

If he played out his contract, don't you think he gets to (or close to) that mark??

Is 40 goal scorer someone who has scored 40 at least once in their career?

Or is a 40 goal scorer some who scores 40 goals most year of his career.

I think in today's NHL it is probably hard to find a consistent 40 goal scorer year in and year out.

But wouldn't you call a 30 goal scorer someone who scores 30 most years or comes close?

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

Historically he has been much worse. You know that. I wanted a young gun with a good resume like Benning, Martin, or BriseBois

Much worse than what? People are saying Shero left this org a mess and he had to go, then many of these same people are saying JR is senile and ruining the org already. If it was ruined already, doesn't JR deserve some time to fix the problems?

It's all pretty silly. The posters who wanted him fired, are already going off the edge after the man has been at the helm for less than a month.

And he didn't trade Neal, Neal got himself traded. People don't need to know about the off ice issues. His on ice behavior was enough of a reason to ship him out. If this org wants to be a champion again, having a "core" player who is lazy and prone to selfish play, isn't going to work.

I don't know many players who were lazy that ever did a 180, and I'm pretty sure Neal isn't a guy who is going to ever be an all heart player who brings it every shift. Some guys change their lazy habits, but it is quite rare.

 

[IcedCapp]

He's done it once, which makes him a 1 time 40 goal scorrer. Hornqvist is a 1 time 30 goal scorrer.

scored at a 43 goal pace in the shortened season (which counts imo).

He's scored 89 goals in 189 games (or something, I didn't write the numbers down). He has a 39gp82g pace in Pittsburgh.

 

[Vegeta]

He's done it once, which makes him a 1 time 40 goal scorrer. Hornqvist is a 1 time 30 goal scorrer.

He's been scoring at a 40 goal pace the past 3 years. The only thing that has held him back is health. Not calling Neal a 40 goal scorer is just as facetious as those that have claimed that Hornqvist "only" had 8 less points than Neal last year, while omitting the fact that Hornqvist played 76 games to Neal's 59. So while Neal has "only" hit the 40 goal mark once, his on-ice production essentially equates to being a 40 goal scorer.

 

[Freeptop]

Interesting article, definitely worth a read ...

Kovacevic is claiming that these claims about his character are only coming from new people in the Pens' front office since Neal was traded, but there was talk about Neal having off-ice character problems long before Shero was fired. Maybe Kovacevic didn't hear that stuff, or maybe he chose not to believe it because of his personal interactions with Neal, but it's been around for a long time.

It's a general problem with the media - how a player interacts with the media ends up affecting the media's assessment of the guy as a player, as well as how he must be in the locker room. (See: media's portrayal of Orpik, who always makes time to talk to the media, vs media's portrayal of Malkin, who frequently doesn't).

Also, it's possible to be a problem in the locker room without making enemies in the locker room. You can get along with everybody just fine, but if you're a bad influence, that's just as much of a "locker room problem" as berating other players can be. Personally, I see Neal as being more likely to be a bad influence kind of problem than anything else.

 

[66-30-33]

Exactly. Mike Bullard scored 51 in 83-84 and the closest he came again to 50 was 48 with Calgary in 87-88. Neal will have to pull that trick again on a team that doesn't employ the services of Evgeni Malkin. Good Luck James!

Neal would get 40 with someone like Thornton as his centermen. I know he COULD do it, but he's only done it once and "projected to do it again" is just that, a projection. Fact is, he hasn't done it more then once. He could have if not for the whiffleball injury, suspensions, lockout but he hasn't.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

Exactly. Mike Bullard scored 51 in 83-84 and the closest he came again to 50 was 48 with Calgary in 87-88. Neal will have to pull that trick again on a team that doesn't employ the services of Evgeni Malkin. Good Luck James!

There is still a lot of time left in free agency and Nashville, despite not exactly being a top destination, has made it evident that they are pushing hard to bring in a quality center for Neal. Spezza passed. It's possible not every target will.

If/when that comes to pass... I won't be nearly so confident as the rest of you that he'll "never touch 40 again." Especially since he'll be a fixture on their powerplay. Where he is largely excellent. I won't miss a lot about Neal but I think he's getting kicked pretty hard on his way out the door here to make people feel a little bit better that JR got kinda tooled on this deal, value-wise. And I love Hornqvist.

 

[66-30-33]

scored at a 43 goal pace in the shortened season (which counts imo).

He's scored 89 goals in 189 games (or something, I didn't write the numbers down). He has a 39gp82g pace in Pittsburgh.

Projection, projection, projection.

 

[Vegeta]

Much worse than what? People are saying Shero left this org a mess and he had to go, then many of these same people are saying JR is senile and ruining the org already. If it was ruined already, doesn't JR deserve some time to fix the problems?

It's all pretty silly. The posters who wanted him fired, are already going off the edge after the man has been at the helm for less than a month.

And he didn't trade Neal, Neal got himself traded. People don't need to know about the off ice issues. His on ice behavior was enough of a reason to ship him out. If this org wants to be a champion again, having a "core" player who is lazy and prone to selfish play, isn't going to work.

I don't know many players who were lazy that ever did a 180, and I'm pretty sure Neal isn't a guy who is going to ever be an all heart player who brings it every shift. Some guys change their lazy habits, but it is much more rare than people want to admit.

See: Lemieux, Mario

As for Rutherford, a 25% playoff appearance rate over 20 years (in the easiest league in pro sports to make the playoffs) is a terrible enough resume for me. Both of Rutherford's cup runs came off the backs of hot goaltenders, and not because he created a team with unimaginable depth. Like I said before, many people didn't have Rutherford on their radar because his terrible reputation precedes him. All we essentially did is replaced Curly with Moe. I don't see how that's such a difficult concept for you to grasp.

Projection, projection, projection.

Would you agree with me then if I called Crosby a 60 point player back in 2011?

 

[IcedCapp]

Projection, projection, projection.

The guy scored at nearly a .5gp pace in a Penguins uniform.


Fact, fact fact factFact, fact fact factFact, fact fact factFact, fact fact factFact, fact fact factFact, fact fact factFact, fact fact factFact, fact fact factFact, fact fact factFact, fact fact factFact, fact fact factFact, fact fact factFact, fact fact factFact, fact fact factFact, fact fact factFact, fact fact factFact, fact fact factFact, fact fact factFact, fact fact factFact, fact fact factFact, fact fact factFact, fact fact factFact, fact fact factFact, fact fact factFact, fact fact factFact, fact fact factFact, fact fact factFact, fact fact factFact, fact fact fact

 

[Gurglesons]

The guy scored at nearly a .5gp pace in a Penguins uniform.


Fact, fact fact factFact, fact fact factFact, fact fact factFact, fact fact factFact, fact fact factFact, fact fact factFact, fact fact factFact, fact fact factFact, fact fact factFact, fact fact factFact, fact fact factFact, fact fact factFact, fact fact factFact, fact fact factFact, fact fact factFact, fact fact factFact, fact fact factFact, fact fact factFact, fact fact factFact, fact fact factFact, fact fact factFact, fact fact factFact, fact fact factFact, fact fact factFact, fact fact factFact, fact fact factFact, fact fact factFact, fact fact factFact, fact fact fact

What is funny is that people are demonstrating Hornqvist's value in the trade because of his projection with good line mates. Yet, Neal scoring at .5gp pace is projection.

 

[Vegeta]

What is funny is that people are demonstrating Hornqvist's value in the trade because of his projection with good line mates. Yet, Neal scoring at .5gp pace is projection.

Pretty much. Somehow Hornqvist is going to magically become a 70 pt scorer based off no empirical evidence, and Neal is just a bum who probably would have finished off an 82 game season with "only" 29 goals.

 

[66-30-33]

Would you agree with me then if I called Crosby a 60 point player back in 2011?

Look, i'm not saying Neal ISN'T a 40 goal scorer, i'm saying he's only done it ONCE. Could he have done it again here if not for the short season/injury/suspensions? Sure he could have and likely would have, but he's only done it once. I don't care about "pace", i care about actually doing it. It's mostly not his fault for not having a few more 40 goal seasons.

The guy scored at nearly a .5gp pace in a Penguins uniform.


Fact, fact fact factFact, fact fact factFact, fact fact factFact, fact fact factFact, fact fact factFact, fact fact factFact, fact fact factFact, fact fact factFact, fact fact factFact, fact fact factFact, fact fact factFact, fact fact factFact, fact fact factFact, fact fact factFact, fact fact factFact, fact fact factFact, fact fact factFact, fact fact factFact, fact fact factFact, fact fact factFact, fact fact factFact, fact fact factFact, fact fact factFact, fact fact factFact, fact fact factFact, fact fact factFact, fact fact factFact, fact fact factFact, fact fact fact

K.

 

[gordie]

Pretty much. Somehow Hornqvist is going to magically become a 70 pt scorer based off no empirical evidence, and Neal is just a bum who probably would have finished off an 82 game season with "only" 29 goals.

Playing for the offensive-minded Johnston as opposed to Trotz and also the skill players that Nashville doesn't have, would make any one believe that Hornqvist should increase his offensive production.

 

[IcedCapp]

Look, i'm not saying Neal ISN'T a 40 goal scorer, i'm saying he's only done it ONCE. Could he have done it again here if not for the short season/injury/suspensions? Sure he could have and likely would have, but he's only done it once. I don't care about "pace", i care about actually doing it. It's mostly not his fault for not having a few more 40 goal seasons.



K.

Explain like you're 5: Logic and Reasoning edition!


Hi Billy. In 2010-2011, Sidney Crosby only played half a year. He put up 66 points. No one who isn't trying to be daft (intentionally difficult) would call Sidney Crosby a 60-point player.

In 2011-2012, Sidney Crosby scored 37 points in 22 games. Again, no one would call him a 37-pt player, due to the games played.

In fact, many people in hockey took Sidney Crosby's prorated stats (they took his stats for those 3 years and figured out what they would look like over an 82-game period) to see just what kind of production Sid missed out on.

Just for your own edification:

Crosby played 99 games from 2010 to 2013. He put up 159 points in those 99 games, or 1.61ppg. No one has ever called him a 60-point player. Because that's not what he was.

James Neal played 199 games for the Pittsburgh Penguins. In those 199 games, James Neal scored 89 goals. That works out to scoring .45-goals-per-game in a Penguins Uniform. This includes the stretch of 20 games in 2010-2011 when James Neal put up just 1 goal in 20 games as both Crosby and Malkin were injured. If I wanted to fudge the stats and make it more obscene, I'd remove that year and say, "James Neal scored 88 points in 179 games."

But I didn't. Because I'm not giving you a projection. I am giving facts. James Neal did not project to score .45 goals per game.

He actually scored .45 goals per game.

James Neal was in Pittsburgh for 3-full seasons. In the two seasons he played full (or near full) schedules, he put up 40 goals (or equivalent). I do not know how you can punish James Neal (in this discussion) for the lockout-shortened season.

 

[Vegeta]

Playing for the offensive-minded Johnston as opposed to Trotz and also the skill players that Nashville doesn't have, would make any one believe that Hornqvist should increase his offensive production.

True, but couldn't the same have been said for Neal as well? If Johnston's offensive system is supposed to be superior to whatever gong show Bylsma was running, then could we not have seen a bump in Neal's numbers?

 

[Black Label]

The only thing that has held him back is health.

And you know, suspensions.

 

[Vegeta]

And you know, suspensions.

That too.

 

[IcedCapp]

Also, 66, preemptive:

 

[66-30-33]

Explain like you're 5: Logic and Reasoning edition!


Hi Billy. In 2010-2011, Sidney Crosby only played half a year. He put up 66 points. No one who isn't trying to be daft (intentionally difficult) would call Sidney Crosby a 60-point player.

In 2011-2012, Sidney Crosby scored 37 points in 22 games. Again, no one would call him a 37-pt player, due to the games played.

In fact, many people in hockey took Sidney Crosby's prorated stats (they took his stats for those 3 years and figured out what they would look like over an 82-game period) to see just what kind of production Sid missed out on.

Just for your own edification:

Crosby played 99 games from 2010 to 2013. He put up 159 points in those 99 games, or 1.61ppg. No one has ever called him a 60-point player. Because that's not what he was.

James Neal played 199 games for the Pittsburgh Penguins. In those 199 games, James Neal scored 89 goals. That works out to scoring .45-goals-per-game in a Penguins Uniform. This includes the stretch of 20 games in 2010-2011 when James Neal put up just 1 goal in 20 games as both Crosby and Malkin were injured. If I wanted to fudge the stats and make it more obscene, I'd remove that year and say, "James Neal scored 88 points in 179 games."

But I didn't. Because I'm not giving you a projection. I am giving facts. James Neal did not project to score .45 goals per game.

He actually scored .45 goals per game.

James Neal was in Pittsburgh for 3-full seasons. In the two seasons he played full (or near full) schedules, he put up 40 goals (or equivalent). I do not know how you can punish James Neal (in this discussion) for the lockout-shortened season.

I'm still looking at Neals stats sheet, i still don't see 40 goals the last 2 years. Oh wait! PROJECTED STATS MEAN THEY REALLY HAPPENED TOO! Neal has 19 non goals in 42 non games the lockout year, aswell as 13 goals in 23 non games. Let's just add them next to his name as he's on "pace" for them anyway since you know, projected stats count on the stat sheet aswell.

 

[IcedCapp]

I'm still looking at Neals stats sheet, i still don't see 40 goals the last 2 years. Oh wait! PROJECTED STATS MEAN THEY REALLY HAPPENED TOO! Neal has 19 non goals in 42 non games the lockout year, aswell as 13 goals in 23 non games. Let's just add them next to his name as he's on "pace" for them anyway since you know, projected stats count on the stat sheet aswell.

see above

 

[66-30-33]

see above

I did, i saw my post.

 

[IcedCapp]

I did, i saw my post.

**** foiled again

 

[Vegeta]

I'm still looking at Neals stats sheet, i still don't see 40 goals the last 2 years. Oh wait! PROJECTED STATS MEAN THEY REALLY HAPPENED TOO! Neal has 19 non goals in 42 non games the lockout year, aswell as 13 goals in 23 non games. Let's just add them next to his name as he's on "pace" for them anyway since you know, projected stats count on the stat sheet aswell.

Okay then. Crosby was a 60 pt player in 2011 and a 30 point player in 2012. He was totally like a 2nd-3rd line tweener those two years. I don't get what all the hooplah is about

 

[mikethelegacy]

The thing that sticks out most to me is the fact that in 38 NHL Playoff games with the Penguins, Neal only had goals in 7 of them. For being a prolific NHL scorer, those numbers are pretty poor. Better than the average-joe, I'm sure, but not anywhere near his regular season numbers.

To be honest, I could care less if a player scores 4 goals or 40 goals in the regular season, as long as that player factors into a long and healthy Stanley Cup run.