OT: James Mirtle and Kyle Dubas

[Menzinger]

opposing opinions aren't attacks and I'd say expressing said opinions doesn't make the poster miserable. It might make you miserable hearing opinions that differ from yours, but I doubt most posters who point out the shortcomings of the Leafs are only looking for improvements to their team.

I literally just called you out in another thread for making unfair broad insults against folks for simply being fans of a player....

I’ve it no issue with well thought out opinions backed up by logic/evidence that clash with my own but there’s a difference between that and what I often see on these forums - which sadly has turned into a pretty miserable place

 

[Americanadian]

Yeah I'm on the completely opposite side of that. I think rarity is a huge factor. Overpaying the depth guys means you are using cap assets on pieces that are mostly replaceable. For example, I'm pretty sure someone like Winnik could have matched most of the impact Brown has, while you could get him for league minimum. I believe that for depth pieces, you look for as much impact as possible for as little money as possible. Where with star players, you pay what it takes because you are never going to be able to replace them. Exaggerating for effect.

I do acknowledge your point though. Having extra cap space tied into core players means you won't be able to get rid of it, like you could with less crucial players. It's a good point, an angle I hadn't really considered to be honest.

The core players stay together, it’s the surrounding players that change. The price of the core determines the quality of the surrounding players.

 

[Menzinger]

The core players stay together, it’s the surrounding players that change. The price of the core determines the quality of the surrounding players.

The quality of support players isn’t always down to price though.

The most expensive depth guys on the current team are some of the worst value contracts

 

[Americanadian]

The quality of support players isn’t always down to price though.

The most expensive depth guys on the current team are some of the worst value contracts

But then you rinse and repeat depth players until you hit good value for money. If you ship out Zaitsev and Brown and replace their salary with Kapanen and Johnsson all of a sudden it’s good money spent.

 

[rumman]

I literally just called you out in another thread for making unfair broad insults against folks for simply being fans of a player....

I’ve it no issue with well thought out opinions backed up by logic/evidence that clash with my own but there’s a difference between that and what I often see on these forums - which sadly has turned into a pretty miserable place

judge not lest ye be judged.

 

[zeke]

The core players stay together, it’s the surrounding players that change. The price of the core determines the quality of the surrounding players.

Nah, the quality of the FO determines the quality of the cheap depth players.

The ability to find cheap quality depth players is actually the most important GM skill.

 

[Americanadian]

Nah, the quality of the FO determines the quality of the cheap depth players.

The ability to find cheap quality depth players is actually the most important GM skill.

The Leafs still need a top 4 RHD which they can barely afford due to the overpaid stars and a bad contract handed out to Marleau.

 

[Trapper]

The Leafs still need a top 4 RHD which they can barely afford due to the overpaid stars and a bad contract handed out to Marleau.

And a bunch of guys who can play the aggressive, sustained forecheck like Tampa.

And then turn around and do it in the D zone.

 

[Menzinger]

But then you rinse and repeat depth players until you hit good value for money. If you ship out Zaitsev and Brown and replace their salary with Kapanen and Johnsson all of a sudden it’s good money spent.

It comes down to a good player development system for prospects (which the Leafs fortunately seem to have now), and smart bargain bin free agency signings. It’s not easy, but it’s workable.

 

[Nithoniniel]

And a bunch of guys who can play the aggressive, sustained forecheck like Tampa.

And then turn around and do it in the D zone.

It's important to note that Tampa didn't acquire a team that can play with an aggressive, sustained forecheck. They became that team. Before that, they were immensely talented but not consistently buying in. Like us.

 

[ACC1224]

Is this getting too far? A influential media person is covering Dubas's ass day after day. In my mind this is bush league, because a prominent guy in media should not behave like this. This is simply pathetic and makes the whole organization look bad. If you're best friends with the guy fine, but don't write about him. He should let others do that.

Mirtle is 'influential'?
Can't say I've ever heard of anyone reading anything he's written.

 

[zeke]

The Leafs still need a top 4 RHD which they can barely afford due to the overpaid stars and a bad contract handed out to Marleau.

Or just get a coach that isn't obsessed with the lhd/rhd thing.

 

[Trapper]

It's important to note that Tampa didn't acquire a team that can play with an aggressive, sustained forecheck. They became that team. Before that, they were immensely talented but not consistently buying in. Like us.

But they made hard choices in who to keep, who to move and how to restructure.
Which is kind of my point for those saying we don’t need x qualities. Money to D. Etc.
Every time we’ve said we need to get this, the majority have been: nah.

 

[Trapper]

Or just get a coach that isn't obsessed with the lhd/rhd thing.

Perhaps he’s more obsessed with putting those players in the spot that maximizes their ability.
If you have LHD that can play the other side without any affect to their game sure.
Hainsey and Dermott are both used there.
If offense for Rielly decreases, why would you continue?

 

[Nithoniniel]

But they made hard choices in who to keep, who to move and how to restructure.
Which is kind of my point for those saying we don’t need x qualities. Money to D. Etc.
Every time we’ve said we need to get this, the majority have been: nah.

What hard choices? There is almost no team in the league who have less roster turnover than Tampa. It's been basically the same group of players for years, except they brought up some guys from the AHL and added McDonagh. The only significant name they have traded was Drouin, a big disappointment who made a transfer request.

If there's a hard choice made, it's that they stayed patient even when voices said they need to make big changes. And their patience got rewarded as the team finally bought in to a style of play that wasn't leaning so heavily just on talent.

 

[Trapper]

What hard choices? There is almost no team in the league who have less roster turnover than Tampa. It's been basically the same group of players for years, except they brought up some guys from the AHL and added McDonagh. The only significant name they have traded was Drouin, a big disappointment who made a transfer request.

If there's a hard choice made, it's that they stayed patient even when voices said they need to make big changes. And their patience got rewarded as the team finally bought in to a style of play that wasn't leaning so heavily just on talent.

From 2015 to 2019.
Out: Namestikov, Bishop, Drouin, Marchessault, Boyle, Filpulla, Carle,etc.

And we are going to have to change the surrounding personnel to upgrade as well.
May include players like Kadri,Kapanen,Brown,Marleau for sure, Gardiner etc.

 

[Sypher04]

Perhaps he’s more obsessed with putting those players in the spot that maximizes their ability.
If you have LHD that can play the other side without any affect to their game sure.
Hainsey and Dermott are both used there.
If offense for Rielly decreases, why would you continue?

Except Rielly barely missed a beat on the right side, and Muzzin hasn't even really been tried. Babcock is wildly inconsistent with who he's willing to give things a legitimate try with.

Rielly and Muzzin looked very good together then get inexplicably broken up and Muzzin shoved onto the third pairing for a while...

 

[Trapper]

Except Rielly barely missed a beat on the right side, and Muzzin hasn't even really been tried. Babcock is wildly inconsistent with who he's willing to give things a legitimate try with

Those things (plus forward line combos) should have been looked at already prior to playoffs game 1. If that is a coaching issue, then we have more issues.

 

[Sypher04]

Those things (plus forward line combos) should have been looked at already prior to playoffs game 1. If that is a coaching issue, then we have more issues.

Of course they should have been looked at earlier. That's what I'm saying. Despite playing very well with Rielly when he arrived, Muzzin wad dumped into the third pair playing unreasonably low minutes for how good he is in relation to our D, and only saw his icetime and responsibility increased appropriately when Babcock's options were taken away because of injury.

 

[Nithoniniel]

From 2015 to 2019.
Out: Namestikov, Bishop, Drouin, Marchessault, Boyle, Filpulla, Carle,etc.

And we are going to have to change the surrounding personnel to upgrade as well.
May include players like Kadri,Kapanen,Brown,Marleau for sure, Gardiner etc.

The hard choice among those would be Bishop, a starter they let go to pave way for what they thought was a better option in Vasilevskiy. That's a choice we might have to do when Andersen's contract expire. It was a tough, strong choice to be sure.

Namestnikov was a mediocre complementary top nine, Drouin was like I said, Marchessault was a huge mistake, and the rest are depth pieces who are largely incosnequential. Except that it allowed them to introduce more speed.

So that corresponds to letting Bozak go, giving up Leivo (watered down version), and seeing Komarov, Martin, Polak, and maybe someone like Brown go. So basically, outside of being forced into giving up a young, disappointing talent and making a hard choice on Andersen in the future, we have already matched their roster turnover.

 

[Trapper]

The hard choice among those would be Bishop, a starter they let go to pave way for what they thought was a better option in Vasilevskiy. That's a choice we might have to do when Andersen's contract expire. It was a tough, strong choice to be sure.

Namestnikov was a mediocre complementary top nine, Drouin was like I said, Marchessault was a huge mistake, and the rest are depth pieces who are largely incosnequential. Except that it allowed them to introduce more speed.

So that corresponds to letting Bozak go, giving up Leivo (watered down version), and seeing Komarov, Martin, Polak, and maybe someone like Brown go. So basically, outside of being forced into giving up a young, disappointing talent and making a hard choice on Andersen in the future, we have already matched their roster turnover.

We need cap space if Marleau doesn’t move and a top 4 D in my opinion. The hard choices may come down to a Kappy or Johnsson and then Brown + a Kadri or mid contract for that.
Then seeing if players like Petan/Goat/Moore/etc can give us close to the aggressive forward style we need.

 

[ER89]

He's not acting like a journalist. He's Dubas's spokesperson without spokesperson tag.

According to you

 

[zeke]

Perhaps he’s more obsessed with putting those players in the spot that maximizes their ability.
If you have LHD that can play the other side without any affect to their game sure.
Hainsey and Dermott are both used there.
If offense for Rielly decreases, why would you continue?

Rielly's offense didn't decrease.

 

[Americanadian]

Or just get a coach that isn't obsessed with the lhd/rhd thing.

Muzzin has never played the right side previously in his career which is why he hasn’t for the leafs. Rielly played on the right and looked significantly worse.

 

[zeke]

Muzzin has never played the right side previously in his career which is why he hasn’t for the leafs. Rielly played on the right and looked significantly worse.

Muzzin-Rielly we're dominant with each other, actually.