OT: James Mirtle and Kyle Dubas

[Throw More Waffles]

Right..."We are going to pay you less than other teams are willing ,cuz ,you know we're the great Leafs"....seriously?

Seems like all of the other teams don’t give 11.6x5 contracts to a forward with a career high of 72 points and who was UNDER a ppg over their 3 elc years.

Is there quite literally ANY precedent for such a thing occurring?

 

[hector morrison]

Seems like all of the other teams don’t give 11.6x5 contracts to a forward with a career high of 72 points and who was UNDER a ppg over their 3 elc years.

Is there quite literally ANY precedent for such a thing occurring?

If that is your collective assessment of Auston Matthews you really are missing out!

 

[hotpaws]

Right..."We are going to pay you less than other teams are willing ,cuz ,you know we're the great Leafs"....seriously?

isn't that what the Dube and Shanny tried to do with there "we vs me" media campaign

 

[hector morrison]

isn't that what the Dube and Shanny tried to do with there "we vs me" media campaign

I believe that was the intent! The ..'.if you wanna have quality team mates or keep a successful squad together you might have to consider less money '...that isn't verbatim ,but something like that. It appears to not have had the desired effect! However,I do think that in 2/3 years ,these contracts won't seem so crazy,comparison wise and cap percentage wise...or maybe otherwise!

My response to the other poster was more to do with my belief that other teams would offer sheet Auston at least as much as he is paid by the Leafs and give up four firsts to do so!

 

[Throw More Waffles]

If that is your collective assessment of Auston Matthews you really are missing out!

Can you cite me any under ppg forward with a career high of 72 points who got paid as a generational player due to his (lol) “other stats”?

 

[hector morrison]

Can you cite me any under ppg forward with a career high of 72 points who got paid as a generational player due to his (lol) “other stats”?

Are you not watching? Is there something you see that is lacking in his game?...Do you really believe that other teams wouldn't offer sheet him if given the chance?

 

[BertCorbeau]

Can you cite me any under ppg forward with a career high of 72 points who got paid as a generational player due to his (lol) “other stats”?

Toews got his $10.5/year long term deal as an under PPG forward with a career high of 76 points.

Also Matthews had 73 points this year FYI

 

[Menzinger]

Toews got his $10.5/year long term deal as an under PPG forward with a career high of 76 points.

Also Matthews had 73 points this year FYI

Yep. When the cap was smaller and has never hit PPG then or since (though he got within 1 point of it this season).

 

[Throw More Waffles]

Are you not watching? Is there something you see that is lacking in his game?...Do you really believe that other teams wouldn't offer sheet him if given the chance?

Is there something lacking from his play making him undeserving of a franchise player contract? Yep. Points.

 

[BertCorbeau]

Is there something lacking from his play making him undeserving of a franchise player contract? Yep. Points.

I'd argue it's more health than points.

Presumably with full 82 game seasons, his point totals can be more fairly judged. But therein lies the issue - he has to play a near full season. His points pace in the last two seasons track well.

 

[hotpaws]

I believe that was the intent! The ..'.if you wanna have quality team mates or keep a successful squad together you might have to consider less money '...that isn't verbatim ,but something like that. It appears to not have had the desired effect! However,I do think that in 2/3 years ,these contracts won't seem so crazy,comparison wise and cap percentage wise...or maybe otherwise!

My response to the other poster was more to do with my belief that other teams would offer sheet Auston at least as much as he is paid by the Leafs and give up four firsts to do so!

he may have been been presented with an offer sheet but that had a very slight chance of happening imo since teams won't try it if they believe the Leafs will match which they would , same goes for Marner

Kap and Johnson on the other would be better options since a team could offer up to 4m a yr on a 5yr or lower term deal and the cost would only be a 2nd .

 

[Throw More Waffles]

I'd argue it's more health than points.

Presumably with full 82 game seasons, his point totals can be more fairly judged. But therein lies the issue - he has to play a near full season. His points pace in the last two seasons track well.

Over his elc he is under a ppg. Injuries can’t really be used as an excuse of that.
Other franchise players coming off their elc’s were 1.3/1.4 ppg. Not 0.96ppg

And I’m not interested in using ufa’s as comparables for an rfa.

 

[Bomber0104]

Toews got his $10.5/year long term deal as an under PPG forward with a career high of 76 points.

Also Matthews had 73 points this year FYI

That was a UFA contract (after 3 year ELC + 5 year RFA contracts) which makes it completely incomparable.

The contract you should be comparing Matthews to is Toews' first post ELC contract - the 5 year RFA contract. That carried a $6.3M caphit and at the time of signing that represented 11.09% of the Hawks overall cap.

Now compare that to Matthews' $11.6M caphit which occupies 14.63% of our salary cap. Basically Matthews almost got as much as UFA Toews who'd already won 3 cups and a Conne Smythe by that time.

And since Toews' (and Kane's) big UFA deals, the Hawks have won nothing. And we're paying our players as if they have won something.

 

[Stephen]

Seems like all of the other teams don’t give 11.6x5 contracts to a forward with a career high of 72 points and who was UNDER a ppg over their 3 elc years.

Is there quite literally ANY precedent for such a thing occurring?

I would refer to the Jack Eichel contract as a pretty obvious example. He hadn’t even broken 60 points when given his $80 million.

 

[BertCorbeau]

Over his elc he is under a ppg. Injuries can’t really be used as an excuse of that.
Other franchise players coming off their elc’s were 1.3/1.4 ppg. Not 0.96ppg

And I’m not interested in using ufa’s as comparables for an rfa.

If he plays those additional games over the last two seasons he could have eclipsed this silly PPG mark you're holding him to.

Besides I care more about how he's playing now, not using his rookie season to weigh him down.

 

[BertCorbeau]

That was a UFA contract (after 3 year ELC + 5 year RFA contracts) which makes it completely incomparable.

The contract you should be comparing Matthews to is Toews' first post ELC contract - the 5 year RFA contract. That carried a $6.3M caphit and at the time of signing that represented 11.09% of the Hawks overall cap.

Now compare that to Matthews' $11.6M caphit which occupies 14.63% of our salary cap. Basically Matthews almost got as much as UFA Toews who'd already won 3 cups and a Conne Smythe by that time.

And since Toews' (and Kane's) big UFA deals, the Hawks have won nothing. And we're left paying our players as if they have won something.

Oh I know the comparison. He set the criteria, and promptly moved the goalposts once he didn't like the answer.

 

[Throw More Waffles]

If he plays those additional games over the last two seasons he could have eclipsed this silly PPG mark you're holding him to.

Besides I care more about how he's playing now, not using his rookie season to weigh him down.

How he’s playing now?
He was on a 66 point pace over 82 since January. (Or something like that.. going off memory).

Regardless, when I compared Nylander to Pastrnak, I argued this way. I said Pastrnak at the END of his elc is a 34 goal/70 point player compared to Nylander’s 20/60. What did everyone do? Pointed to ppg including rookie years to rationalize Nylanders pay.

I’m really just getting sick of the inconsistencies.

Are you consistent? Are you including Nylanders rookie year when comparing to Pastrnak?

 

[Menzinger]

That was a UFA contract (after 3 year ELC + 5 year RFA contracts) which makes it completely incomparable.

The contract you should be comparing Matthews to is Toews' first post ELC contract - the 5 year RFA contract. That carried a $6.3M caphit and at the time of signing that represented 11.09% of the Hawks overall cap.

Now compare that to Matthews' $11.6M caphit which occupies 14.63% of our salary cap. Basically Matthews almost got as much as UFA Toews who'd already won 3 cups and a Conne Smythe by that time.

And since Toews' (and Kane's) big UFA deals, the Hawks have won nothing. And we're paying our players as if they have won something.

Matthews ELC production was more impressive than Toews, so a 3% increase is well within reason.

 

[Throw More Waffles]

Oh I know the comparison. He set the criteria, and promptly moved the goalposts once he didn't like the answer.

I thought it was common sense that ufa contracts shouldn’t be compared to rfa contracts. It goes without saying. How you could call that “moving the goal posts” is beyond me.

 

[Throw More Waffles]

Matthews ELC production was more impressive than Toews, so a 3% increase is well within reason.

But once you add that 3% you’re bringing Matthews into the 100 point, 1.4 ppg generational players over their elc’s. Which Matthews clearly isn’t. It has to go both ways.

 

[Stephen]

But once you add that 3% you’re bringing Matthews into the 100 point, 1.4 ppg generational players over their elc’s. Which Matthews clearly isn’t. It has to go both ways.

I guess you're choosing to ignore the Jack Eichel contract. $10 million AAV, $80 million total over 8 years on a guy who had a career high of 57 points at the time of the signing for a player who never made the playoffs, and was drafted 2nd overall one calendar year before Matthews.

 

[Bomber0104]

Matthews ELC production was more impressive than Toews, so a 3% increase is well within reason.

3.54% but of course you'd round it down to 3%...

No matter, a Cup and Conn Smythe winning Toews at $8.82M (adjusted to present day cap expenditure) is much better value than Matthews with zero playoff success and slightly better regular season production at $11.63M.

That's what good GM's do I suppose.

 

[Menzinger]

3.54% but of course you'd round it down to 3%...

No matter, a Cup and Conn Smythe winning Toews at $8.82M (adjusted to present day cap expenditure) is much better value than Matthews with zero playoff success and slightly better regular season production at $11.63M.

That's what good GM's do I suppose.

Using team success to determine individual contracts is always a lousy idea: it’s how you end up paying guys like Seabrook 6 million a season.

 

[Bomber0104]

Using team success to determine individual contracts is always a lousy idea: it’s how you end up paying guys like Seabrook 6 million a season.

That RHD premium though...

But yeah that is quite bad.

 

[Throw More Waffles]

I guess you're choosing to ignore the Jack Eichel contract. $10 million AAV, $80 million total over 8 years on a guy who had a career high of 57 points at the time of the signing for a player who never made the playoffs, and was drafted 2nd overall one calendar year before Matthews.

So I’ll grant you that there is ONE other example of a contract almost as bad as Matthews.

Does that really make you feel better? “It’s not the ONLY time a player with mediocre stats got paid like a generational player after their elc. There is ONE other”.