Player Discussion Jake Virtanen

[Zippgunn]

Exactly. But here on HF he can do no wrong. Imagine if his name wasn’t Jake Virtanen.

If he wore a nameless jersey and you watched him play with his output 99% of people on here would be clamouring for his head and why is he still in the NHL??

Don’t forget, when he skates fast and shoots at the goalies logo 99% of the time , people say “he’s turning a corner” lol.

It’s ok to admit he’s a bust. We made a mistake. Admit it and move on.

This. In spades.

 

[David Bruce Banner]

A puck distributor would only be wasted on Virtanen, similar to how Booth was wasted on a line with the Sedins. I think the way to optimize Virtanen is to give him two other guys who can similarly wreak havoc on the forecheck and possibly play a power game.

It never hurts to have some puck distribution... but maybe a good boards and corner man who can also pass would be the answer. I heard good things about Jasek along those lines.

 

[Shareefruck]

Really? There is no way I would ever want to draft that kind of player that early in the first round. These types, while valuable, are not worth the premium draft choice. Put it this way, I would never trade a top 20 pick for a Raffi Torres or Tom Wilson.

Sure. But that also isn't a very reasonable method of evaluating the outcome of a draft pick.

The value in a top 20 pick isn't that it's LIKELY that it will turn into something better than a Raffi Torres. The value is in the unlikely but not insignificant gamble that it might become something way better. This doesn't mean that expectations are not sufficiently met if you end up with that. By all accounts, the average 20th overall pick isn't better than a Raffi Torres.

I totally agree that in a re-draft, Virtanen wouldn't be 20th overall, though, if that's the angle you're looking at it from.

 

[Shareefruck]

It never hurts to have some puck distribution... but maybe a good boards and corner man who can also pass would be the answer. I heard good things about Jasek along those lines.

In isolation, all else being equal, sure.

But if I have a player with strong puck distribution skills, they're better served being used to complement another player (someone who excels with that type of player) rather than be wasted having minimal influence on Virtanen, IMO. Another puck hound utilizes Virtanen's skillset much better than a puck distributor does, IMO.
Same reason David Booth played better with Kesler than he did with Henrik Sedin.

 

[Peter10]

Jakes one me over. Some of my old hostile posts against him are embarrassing now haha which is why i cooled it on the Juolevi hate train cause you never know

Anyways i really wanna seem him on a line with

Lipesic Beagles Virtanen

Just a note for you while growing up, it certainly helps you credibility if you dont put your nose straight with the wind all the times but form an opinion for yourself. Rarely have seen a guy shifting his opinions from black to white and back like you do. Sometimes it might just help the clearly think about a situation and form an opinion yourself instead of just switching around to what just seems the current popular.

 

[M2Beezy]

Just a note for you while growing up, it certainly helps you credibility if you dont put your nose straight with the wind all the times but form an opinion for yourself. Rarely have seen a guy shifting his opinions from black to white and back like you do. Sometimes it might just help the clearly think about a situation and form an opinion yourself instead of just switching around to what just seems the current popular.

Didnt change with whats popular you [MOD] , i changed my POV of him with how he played.

Regardless, thanks for the grain of salt Peter...

 

[lawrence]

oh cmon, Bennet, Dal Cole, Fleury havent exactly been turning heads either, amatuer drafting isn't the easiest, even Pastrnak who is probably a top 3 redraft went 25, so in this case one can say 22 teams made a mistake missing out on him, then go on for years of bickering about the guy the picked instead, like cmon, lets just move on and try to look at some of the positives he bring.

 

[Johnny Canucker]

I’ve seen people in this thread HOPE that he turns out to be a Torres, Hansen, Cooke, etc. He’s a 6th overall pick and that’s what you hope he becomes?

It's the other way around, IMO. Virtanen has quickly gone from overrated to underrated in this past year, thanks to his previous putrid bust-worthy total-liability performances leading up to it (arguably due to being rushed) combined with the fact that his counting stats didn't reflect his effectiveness.

In reality, if you isolate last season and ignore the name on his back, as well the negative reputation that has been built up (deservedly so), Virtanen was a very effective, hard-working role-player who constantly made things difficult for the opposition, pushed the balance of play in the correct direction, and was often one of our better players on the ice (easily our best forechecker at the moment). He honestly played well enough that it would have been a huge help to the team last year if there were a Virtanen on every line.

I think his upside was overblown when he was drafted, my mind hasn't been changed about him having really low hockey IQ that will likely keep him from ever becoming a high end offensive player (I think the claims that his low hockey IQ is a myth is a total joke), but he's made very promising progress, and is turning out about as well as can be expected given his limited upside at the time of being drafted, IMO.

It wasn't the right draft pick to make, but he's still tracking well to fit nicely into that Cooke/Hansen-esque high-end 3rd liner spot at some point, and is among the least of our problems at the moment.

 

[Wo Yorfat]

Didnt change with whats popular you [MOD] , i changed my POV of him with how he played.

Regardless, thanks for the grain of salt Peter...

Some of your best work yet GOAT.

 

[Wo Yorfat]

I’ve seen people in this thread HOPE that he turns out to be a Torres, Hansen, Cooke, etc. He’s a 6th overall pick and that’s what you hope he becomes?

Yes, this might blow your mind, but the fact that he was drafted 6oa in 2014 doesn't have any impact on his abilities or a reasonable persons expectations moving forward. Are you still waiting for Gudbranson to become a #1 Dman?

 

[MS]

Exactly. But here on HF he can do no wrong. Imagine if his name wasn’t Jake Virtanen.

If he wore a nameless jersey and you watched him play with his output 99% of people on here would be clamouring for his head and why is he still in the NHL??

Don’t forget, when he skates fast and shoots at the goalies logo 99% of the time , people say “he’s turning a corner” lol.

It’s ok to admit he’s a bust. We made a mistake. Admit it and move on.

How on earth is his name being Jake Virtanen working in his favour? If anything, it's the opposite as his off-ice issues have given people a more negative impression of him. Likewise the fact that his draft position is constantly referenced by people like you when it really doesn't matter at this point.

People like him because he's a big, extremely fast winger who was a good ES producer last year from a cheap contract and made excellent strides defensively who looks to be a solid middle-6 forward going forward for this team.

Everyone knows he won't live up to his draft status and was a bad pick. That doesn't mean he's a bust and isn't a useful asset for the team.

 

[Cupless44]

I am still of the belief that if Jake is given some decent ice time he will pipe down many of you that have labeled him a bust. The young man has matured, is working on his game extremely hard on conditioning, stick handling, shooting. I see him being one of the fastest players in the NHL, playing a physical game...already leads the forwards in hits. Should be a 20 goal scorer if Green gives him a chance to play with decent line mates and some 2nd PP time. Should be a no brainer for overtime. A player any team can use.

Certainly one of the most entertaining players to watch on a boring Canuck team.

 

[Shareefruck]

I’ve seen people in this thread HOPE that he turns out to be a Torres, Hansen, Cooke, etc. He’s a 6th overall pick and that’s what you hope he becomes?

Uhhh... okay, what does that have to do with what I argued?

Virtanen is a poor pick for 6th overall. People only "hope" that he turns out to be as limited as Cooke, Hansen, and Torres because it's doubtful to think that he can feasibly become much better than that. Should a #6 pick have potential to become much more than that? Yes. Do I hope Virtanen is going to become much more than that? No, because I don't think there's much chance it can happen.

However, suggesting that he's been worthy of a top 20 pick is perfectly fair, and he is tracking well enough to be valued at around that range. Virtanen is far from our biggest problem right now, because despite not being worthy of a 6th overall pick, he's been very effective on a team full of useless crap, and is on track for what is arguably his best case scenario, given his limitations (which he's arguably had since being drafted).

 

[Icebreakers]

I am still of the belief that if Jake is given some decent ice time he will pipe down many of you that have labeled him a bust. The young man has matured, is working on his game extremely hard on conditioning, stick handling, shooting. I see him being one of the fastest players in the NHL, playing a physical game...already leads the forwards in hits. Should be a 20 goal scorer if Green gives him a chance to play with decent line mates and some 2nd PP time. Should be a no brainer for overtime. A player any team can use.

Certainly one of the most entertaining players to watch on a boring Canuck team.

The problem was never his skills. The problem is that he doesn't know how to optimally use his skills. He had the physical maturity to absolutely dominate junior. Literally walk through every single player in junior and he failed to produce.

Until he learns more about what it takes to score he won't see a significant jump.

I'm skeptical that he could even score 20 in the AHL next season. He has the potential but it's not as simple as giving him more ice time.

Hopefully he proves me wrong... Its just he has shown me nothing that he can produce at that level.

 

[JAK]

I'm not sure how I will phrase this without hyping JV up, but I am not trying to hype him up.

Let's look at another power forward who plays a similar rush game, around the same size and weight, Todd Bertuzzi.

Bertuzzi only started blossoming into a top 6 forward at his age 24 season. His 22 and 23 years were when he started showing signs.

The next two years is key for JV, if he can show us improvements, show us that he can be a top 6 scoring winger.

Management swung for the fences with the pick, they were hoping for getting a local boy that turns into a star, do not put that pressure on JV, it was not his fault that he got drafted at his spot.

Canucks have been criticized over the years to not dip into local talents, and I honestly believe that it was an influence on the pick. Whether that came down from ownership or not will remain a secret.

If JV blossoms into top 6 forward, even just a solid second line option, it would be a win. If he falters, and he has an NHL career as a bottom 6 checker role, his speed and size will help as well.

I think Green has been hard on JV, to get him to be a NHL forward, whether JV can put it together and move up the line up, time will tell. But being ready to be a career NHLer, I think that has been the lesson plan for JV for the past few years.

 

[RobertKron]

I'm not sure how I will phrase this without hyping JV up, but I am not trying to hype him up.

Let's look at another power forward who plays a similar rush game, around the same size and weight, Todd Bertuzzi.

Bertuzzi only started blossoming into a top 6 forward at his age 24 season. His 22 and 23 years were when he started showing signs.

The next two years is key for JV, if he can show us improvements, show us that he can be a top 6 scoring winger.

Management swung for the fences with the pick, they were hoping for getting a local boy that turns into a star, do not put that pressure on JV, it was not his fault that he got drafted at his spot.

Canucks have been criticized over the years to not dip into local talents, and I honestly believe that it was an influence on the pick. Whether that came down from ownership or not will remain a secret.

If JV blossoms into top 6 forward, even just a solid second line option, it would be a win. If he falters, and he has an NHL career as a bottom 6 checker role, his speed and size will help as well.

I think Green has been hard on JV, to get him to be a NHL forward, whether JV can put it together and move up the line up, time will tell. But being ready to be a career NHLer, I think that has been the lesson plan for JV for the past few years.

Bertuzzi scored 18 goals as a 20 year old rookie pro. He also produced well post trade to the Canucks, and very obviously had the vision and talent to be a top-end player.

Virtanen plays nothing like Bertuzzi did, other than that they’re both large men who run into people sometimes.

Also, in those big WCE years, Bertuzzi was up around 245lbs or more. He was a whole other type of big, and also had the head to be able to slow the game down and make the most of that size.

 

[I am toxic]

I think JV and Elias Peterrsson would actually work really well together.

Not being sacracstic. I actually think JV, like his skating, thinks the game too fast for his teammates. If he is able to keep that thinking, while realizing that most of the time he will have to move at a different pace to a different position on the ice, I think he could be very effective, eg top six winger.

Would use him in 3on3 OT as well, recognizing that for a couple seasons it will cost the team points. But we don't need points right now, we need another Hughes.

All of this is dependant on his work ethic away from the rink (training and diet), which appears to at least be trending in the right direction based on the very little I hear about here in the forums.

 

[MS]

I am still of the belief that if Jake is given some decent ice time he will pipe down many of you that have labeled him a bust. The young man has matured, is working on his game extremely hard on conditioning, stick handling, shooting. I see him being one of the fastest players in the NHL, playing a physical game...already leads the forwards in hits. Should be a 20 goal scorer if Green gives him a chance to play with decent line mates and some 2nd PP time. Should be a no brainer for overtime. A player any team can use.

Certainly one of the most entertaining players to watch on a boring Canuck team.

Agreed with all of this except the PP part. He's the same sort of player as Sutter/Hansen - speedy transition players without a lot of vision and hockey sense, and these guys tend to suck on the PP.

And without PP time, I'd tend to see Virtanen plateauing as a 15-15-30 middle-6 guy who might play on a 2nd line at times at ES but won't see true '2nd line production'.

 

[JAK]

Virtanen plays nothing like Bertuzzi did, other than that they’re both large men who run into people sometimes.

Also, in those big WCE years, Bertuzzi was up around 245lbs or more.

Bertuzzi was at his best on the rush, he was never a Sedin like board grinder, his size helped. But Bertuzzi was best on the rush. Why else were they called WCE.

 

[RobertKron]

Bertuzzi was at his best on the rush, he was never a Sedin like board grinder, his size helped. But Bertuzzi was best on the rush. Why else were they called WCE.

Honest question: did you actually watch Bertuzzi play as a Canuck?

The league literally had to reemphasize the standard of officiating on net-front battles due to him being so effective mucking and creating space in the crease.

On the rush he was effective in part because he was enormous and could bull his way to the crease, but also because he had top end vision and hands, and could stop up and make plays that a guy his size had no right to pull off. Virtanen doesn’t have that.

 

[Shareefruck]

I think that Virtanen and Pettersson are very poor fits, personally, for the same reasons I mentioned about him not being benefited by a puck distributor, or east-west players in general.

I think Gaudette would probably work well with him.

 

[RobertKron]

I think that Virtanen and Pettersson are very poor fits, personally, for the same reasons I mentioned about him not being benefited by a puck distributor.

I think Gaudette would probably work well with him.

I’d agree here to a certain degree. I see him working well with, say, Gaudette and Sutter if they can get a real direct, north-south, chip and chase game working. Just aim Sutter and Virtanen at the net and tell them to forget everything else and just go there real fast.

That said, if Pettersson ends up a truly elite offensive talent, then he’ll obviously elevate everyone.

 

[I am toxic]

I think that Virtanen and Pettersson are very poor fits, personally, for the same reasons I mentioned about him not being benefited by a puck distributor.

I think Gaudette would probably work well with him.

Fair enough. I think you are much more likely to be proven right than me (altho I doubt JV ever gets tried out with EP) but I still cling to my idea as a long-shot.

 

[Shareefruck]

I’d agree here to a certain degree. I see him working well with, say, Gaudette and Sutter if they can get a real direct, north-south, chip and chase game working. Just aim Sutter and Virtanen at the net and tell them to forget everything else and just go there real fast.

That said, if Pettersson ends up a truly elite offensive talent, then he’ll obviously elevate everyone.

I really like the dynamic that Gaunce and Virtanen have together as well. Polar opposite but complementary games (both very disruptive and stifling on the forecheck/backcheck, but one hangs back conservatively while the other is aggressive). Personally, I'm crossing my fingers for a Gaunce - Gaudette - Virtanen third line becoming an established thing in the future.

 

[RobertKron]

I really like the dynamic that Gaunce and Virtanen have together as well. Polar opposite but complementary games. Personally, I'm crossing my fingers for a Gaunce - Gaudette - Virtanen third line becoming an established thing in the future.

Yeah, agree here.