All else being equal I don't disagree but cap hit, the way he scores his goals, and utilization counts as well. I think Grabner was simply underrated most of his career. He was basically putting up his goal totals playing on the 3rd line and being on the PK while generally producing at a rate that presented a value for his cap hit. A player can score 20 goals regularly but he may do so in a very streaky manner while being invisible most other nights.
Player Discussion Jake Virtanen, Pt. XXI
- Thread starter M2Beezy
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All else being equal I don't disagree but cap hit, the way he scores his goals, and utilization counts as well. I think Grabner was simply underrated most of his career. He was basically putting up his goal totals playing on the 3rd line and being on the PK while generally producing at a rate that presented a value for his cap hit. A player can score 20 goals regularly but he may do so in a very streaky manner while being invisible most other nights.
Yes, but i think people are arguing specifically about whether Jake will be a 20+ goal scorer “most seasons” i.e. he can be counted on to be in a scoring role, or whether he hits it 2-3 times in his career but is predominantly a 10+ goal scorer. I think we all agree he brings some useful elements to a team’s bottom 6, but the real decider for his value and how is viewed on these boards is whether he develops his skills / game to be a *reliable* goal contributor or not. Hitting 20 goals once or twice in his lifetime may make him technically a “20 goal scorer” (like Hansen) but not what people are hoping for.
VC
Registered User
+/- a couple of goals I could see Virtanen being a 15 goal scorer (optimistically) with highs of 20 goals and lows of 10. Ideally he would be a reliable 20 goal scorer, just haven't seen anything that suggests that he could be.
I didn't realize that Virt and Gaudette were paired up so much did so poorly. That is what I would have built the third line around. Don't know if an ideal winger and year Gaudette would be enough to make that line work.
I didn't realize that Virt and Gaudette were paired up so much did so poorly. That is what I would have built the third line around. Don't know if an ideal winger and year Gaudette would be enough to make that line work.
Players like Virtanen are needed on a team. He isn't a first or second line player (yet?), but I think he is a great third line player at the moment. Plus he is still young and could improve. That is exactly the type of player I would like in the bottom six. I just have to ignore his draft position, and I can be happy we have this type of player on the team.
Ben Kuzma in the Province today:
"This is a critical season for Jake Virtanen. Is he trade bait or part of the future core?"
"The right-winger hit career highs in 2018-19 for goals (15) and points (25), but he’s in the final year of his contract and probably stapled to a third- or fourth-line role following the additions of Miller and Ferland. The career of Virtanen, the sixth overall pick in the 2014 NHL draft, is still punctuated by potential and inconsistency."
"Virtanen is the club’s fastest skater. He hits like a truck when the spirit moves him and his decisions with and without the puck have improved. He had five goals in his first 14 games last season and passed a career-high 10 goals on Dec. 30."
"After 38 games, he was on a pace for 23 goals but then went 13 games without scoring, and despite being third in team shots, was 11th in shooting percentage at just 9.7 per cent. He was also first in team takeaways, second in hits, and his giveaways dropped from second in 2017-18 to 11th last season."
"This is a critical season for Jake Virtanen. Is he trade bait or part of the future core?"
"The right-winger hit career highs in 2018-19 for goals (15) and points (25), but he’s in the final year of his contract and probably stapled to a third- or fourth-line role following the additions of Miller and Ferland. The career of Virtanen, the sixth overall pick in the 2014 NHL draft, is still punctuated by potential and inconsistency."
"Virtanen is the club’s fastest skater. He hits like a truck when the spirit moves him and his decisions with and without the puck have improved. He had five goals in his first 14 games last season and passed a career-high 10 goals on Dec. 30."
"After 38 games, he was on a pace for 23 goals but then went 13 games without scoring, and despite being third in team shots, was 11th in shooting percentage at just 9.7 per cent. He was also first in team takeaways, second in hits, and his giveaways dropped from second in 2017-18 to 11th last season."
EpochLink
Canucks and Jets fan
And what I was specifically replying to was the claim that you can't score 20 goals regularly most seasons if you are limited offensively or can't generate scoring chances for linemates. My point is that you can. I said that it's anybody's guess as to the type of career Virtanen would end up having.
I then responded to your comment about Grabner. Grabner has scored at a 20 goal pace or better "most seasons" including 3 seasons where he scored 25+ goals while primarily getting 3rd line minutes with little PP time.
Any player scoring 20 goals from bottom-6 icetime with no PP time is basically unheard-of now. That would be an incredible season.
Well he almost did it last season before getting injured so I don’t think it’s too farfetched. With his speed and physicality Jake still has the ability to take over games when he’s at his best. He will likely have much better line mates this year too. There’s still time for him to have a breakout year like Chris Kreider did around the same age.
He got to 15 based on a pile of flukey goals and a lot of icetime with Horvat he’s unlikely to get again this year. If he got to 15 again, that would be excellent.
But really, his production is secondary to *how* he’s playing. If he scores 12 goals but is really moving his feet and showing a quality motor and 3-zone game that makes him a real asset on a 3rd line, that’s a far better season than if he gets to 20 goals with some bounces and good linemates but is gliding around uselessly away from the puck like we saw far too much last year.
Everything with Virtanen comes from his willingness to compete and move his feet.
At this point it is far more likely he had an unsustainably high shooting percentage in his draft year, which led to unsustainably high goal totals, then his injury causing him to lose his shot.
You can’t just chalk it up to luck in his draft year because he did display some pretty elite goal scoring statistics before his draft as well.
I think management agrees with you in general though considering the players they brought in shows they are not expecting that much out of Jake. As a fan I still see huge potential with him if he can figure out the mental side of the game be more consistent and play aggressively using his tools to the best of their ability.
It’s really, really hard to score more than ~15 goals in this league if you don’t get PP time or top-6 ES usage. It basically doesn’t happen.
As for his shot, we’ve been waiting for 5 years for it and it hasn’t happened.
Hansen
tyler motte simp
Hit the post
I have your gold medal Zippy!
Grabner seems to score a fair number of empty net goals (likely due to his speed). And he seems to travel alot in the league (kind of like how Brent Ashton got traded so many times). Good PKer. Seems to go invisible often in even strength situations.
Yep. And when Sutter and Beagle are centering your third and fourth lines the dream of three scoring lines is just that...a dream.
The Athletic claims there's a simple solution. Roll the dice by reuniting Goldy and Pettersson with Boeser on the first line; and then moving J.T. Miller into the middle on the third line with interchangeable wingers, which could include Virtanen. Presto. Three actual scoring lines.
Of course that would likely displace Sutter to the wing on the fourth line, but that's the reality of where his game is at right now. And Beagle/Sutter would be two-thirds of the most expensive line in the NHL. And if they added in Eriksson, it would likely be the most dollar bloated line in NHL history.
Of course that would likely displace Sutter to the wing on the fourth line, but that's the reality of where his game is at right now. And Beagle/Sutter would be two-thirds of the most expensive line in the NHL. And if they added in Eriksson, it would likely be the most dollar bloated line in NHL history.
Pastor Of Muppetz
Registered User
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Looking at Brandon Sutters stats...If healthy...he is capable of potting 15-20 goals...
Mr. Canucklehead
Kitimat Canuck
Sutter’s offensive issue is his complete inability to pass the puck. He has a decent shot, hence some OK goal scoring totals, but he’s got massive tunnel vision in terms of shooting vs passing. Not well suited to an offensive role at all.
Hit the post
I have your gold medal Zippy!
On the plus side, he seems unaffected by the quality of his linemates (wingers).
Pastor Of Muppetz
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I'm not as down on Sutter as a lot of posters here are..His line mates will most likely be Baertschi/Pearson and Virtanen..That's not the worst case scenario.
The whole offensive 'black hole' bit is over emphasized.
I think a big obstacle for that would be the optics of Miller as a third line centre after being a marquee acquisition who cost us a hefty price. In that kind of role, he's probably a 40 point player, and might make JB/FAQ look bad. Based on that factor I would think we see Miller riding shotgun with Horvat at ES, and getting PP1 time.
Megaterio Llamas
el rey del mambo
I can't help but think the only reason has wasn't shifted to the wing ten years ago is the name on the back of his sweater. Guy's skillset screams move me to rw.
