Value of: Jake Virtanen and Thatcher Demko

[Fatass]

But how does that benefit the Canucks really? Next year the cap crunch isn't going to kill us, it'll be the season after when Petey and Hughes get paid.

No cap room right now to sign Marky, Tanev, and Toffoli. Plus, there are RFAs Stecher and Virtanen.

 

[Bettman Returnz]

Detroit WAS up against it, but Detroit's cap situation is deceiving because of LTIR guys like Zetterberg and Franzen. Once the playoffs finish Detroit will have Gagne (2.8M), Ericsson (4.2M), Daley (3.1M), Howard (4M), Green retained salary (2.6M), Weiss buyout (1.6M), Franzen (3.9M) all coming off the books. That plus the 6M of Z's contract that wont be against Detroit's cap.

And with all that money leaving, Detroit's only relevant RFAs to resign are Mantha and Bertuzzi who should command no more than 12M between the two. Detroit could have upwards of 20 million in cap space to start the offseason in October if things remain as they are.

That being said, I agree that Vancouver probably wouldn't go for that trade. And as a wings fan I'm not a huge fan of picking up a cap dump (as much as I would love Demko). I would rather have the money to go after guys like Krug or Hall in free agency if they make it there.

You’d have to hope those types of players are mainly focused on the money... as red wings are a ways from cup hunting.

 

[LowFive]

You’d have to hope those types of players are mainly focused on the money... as red wings are a ways from cup hunting.

Fortunately for the Wings, many cup competitors have nothing to spend, let alone to pony up for a guy like Hall. I admit it's about a one in a hundred chance Detroit lands Hall... but I have to hope for something. Krug on the other hand is from a Detroit suburb and played at Michigan State so he is the more realistic target.

If Krug and Hall both signed with other teams, I would be willing to take on a cap dump for 1-2 years in exchange for a goalie like Demko. Detroit will never be a competitor until they address their goalie situation and Demko's age and potential fit the kind of guy i would like to go after. As long as we keep our core intact (Larkin, Mantha, Bertuzzi, Zadina, Seider).

I could see a trade built around E. Svechnikov for Demko + Eriksson. Not sure what either side might add to balance it out though. Just spitballing

 

[Cogburn]

Fortunately for the Wings, many cup competitors have nothing to spend, let alone to pony up for a guy like Hall. I admit it's about a one in a hundred chance Detroit lands Hall... but I have to hope for something. Krug on the other hand is from a Detroit suburb and played at Michigan State so he is the more realistic target.

If Krug and Hall both signed with other teams, I would be willing to take on a cap dump for 1-2 years in exchange for a goalie like Demko. Detroit will never be a competitor until they address their goalie situation and Demko's age and potential fit the kind of guy i would like to go after. As long as we keep our core intact (Larkin, Mantha, Bertuzzi, Zadina, Seider).

I could see a trade built around E. Svechnikov for Demko + Eriksson. Not sure what either side might add to balance it out though. Just spitballing

I am all about this trade. Which means Vancouver probably adds something. But if that's the base, count me in.

 

[SelltheTeamFrancesco]

Oh look we've circled back to Ryan for Eriksson for the 30th time this year. Ottawa isn't interested, let it go.

It's honestly probably the Canuck that aren't interested.They aren't taking on 8 million dollars in real money without a significant add especially with the whole loss of revenue and not knowing what next year is going to look like.

 

[Clamshells]

It's honestly probably the Canuck that aren't interested.They aren't taking on 8 million dollars in real money without a significant add especially with the whole loss of revenue and not knowing what next year is going to look like.

The conversation always leads to "Sens can retain 50% because sAvE MoNeY". I agree Canucks cannot do a 1 for 1 without retention, but Ottawa is not retaining here. Its a deal breaker on both sides but that hasn't stopped the exact same conversation from happening every two weeks on this board.

 

[Qwijibo]

I'd take Virtanen on Montreal and ship out Lehkonen to someone else.

That would be a terrible move. Lehkonen is way better

 

[604]

The cost of dumping longer term than one year will be far more than Jake or Demko. Dumping Loui is being evenly hopeful on my part. Sutter and Baer will clear 9 million.

Making $9m of space for next year is pointless. The savings need to be 2 years from now when we need to re-sign Hughes and Petey.

Eriksson, Roussel, Beagle, and if we had to Myers would be the best guys to move.

Baertschi and Sutter have one year left and aren't worth dumping IMO.

 

[604]

Adam Larsson as a base?

Larsson seems to not have a role in EDM (have other to take his spot cheaper), Sutter doesn't have a roll in VAN (Canucks need either Beagle or Sutter, not both).

Larsson and Sutter are both UFA in a year and unlikely to be re-signed; both fill a need for the other team.

What gets a deal done with the two involved as main pieces (or Beagle instead of Sutter)?

 

[Big Muddy]

This isn't a bad idea, would Ottawa retain to keep have more dead cap space getting them over the floor?

Melnyk retaining?

 

[Big Muddy]

Sens wont have an issue hitting the floor.

Whats the floor, 60m, 61?

We're at 42m currently, with C. Brown to resign (lets say 3.5 to 4.5m), Duclair (lets say 3 to 4m), Tierney (lets say 3.25 to 3.75), and even then we'd only have 7fwds and 4 D on our roster, totalling 52m-55m, depending on where guys fall in that range. Add in 7 guys at 800k and you're up to 55-58m.

Sens can get creative with cap space, but imo its much much much more likely that they take on dead cap space, or high cap low salary guys (like Eriksson) than they are to retain real salary for a player theyre dealing. I also think they will try to acquire a young, legit top 6F/top 4D, like Dunn, Sergachev, etc., with some of their picks and prospects.

I do think we'd be willing to take a guy like Ferland, no problem

I think that is the most realist thing to happen.

Demko + Baertschi for a 3rd
Virtanen + Eriksson for future consideration

Could see Ottawa taking on Eriksson with Virtanen due to his low salary

Not sure a team with lots of cap room needs to take on a cap dump this year. There should be plenty of better options this year (and next) with a flat cap. Teams with ample cap space should be able to field a lot of offers with teams that have useful players given that several teams will need to shed salary due to their cap situation. If such teams consider a camp dump, then their GMs should be squeezing their trading partner really hard or else they aren't a very good GM.

 

[Bettman Returnz]

Making $9m of space for next year is pointless. The savings need to be 2 years from now when we need to re-sign Hughes and Petey.

Eriksson, Roussel, Beagle, and if we had to Myers would be the best guys to move.

Baertschi and Sutter have one year left and aren't worth dumping IMO.

We need space next season too, though. Sure I agree we shouldn’t be selling the farm to move Sutter and/or baertschi. They’d more than likely be easier to part with (at a more reasonable price point). Don’t get me wrong I’d prefer eriksson Be moved out but that’s going to be a lot tougher and cost more than we may want to pay. Just saying.

 

[Boondock]

But how does that benefit the Canucks really? Next year the cap crunch isn't going to kill us, it'll be the season after when Petey and Hughes get paid.

you either A - don't understand the Canucks cap - or B don't understand the Canucks cap

17 million in cap space with 16 players signed. A standard NHL roster carries 23 players, so the Canucks have $17 million to sign 7 player. The Canucks have $1.7 in bonus money that has been slid into next years cap. so that leaves $15.7 million for 7 players. Listed are the Canucks needing new deals and the estimated cost to re-sign
1 - Markstrom ($5.75)
2- Toffoli ($5.0)
3 - Tanev ($4.75)
4- Stetcher ($2.5)
5 - Virtanen ($2.5)
6- McEwen ($1.0)
7- Motte ($1.0)

So this adds up to a total of $22.5 million so the Canucks would need to shed a minimum of $7million dollars to re-sign these 7 players. Even then, we return the exact same team as this year and hope individuals will be improve enough to make the team better. If you think the Canucks can move bad contracts, I don't see many options for teams interested in dead cap space and over priced contracts with bad term. Canucks cap situation for next year sucks, in fact I am predicting a down year for the Canucks next year because of their stupid asset management and poor cap structure.

 

[Cogburn]

you either A - don't understand the Canucks cap - or B don't understand the Canucks cap

17 million in cap space with 16 players signed. A standard NHL roster carries 23 players, so the Canucks have $17 million to sign 7 player. The Canucks have $1.7 in bonus money that has been slid into next years cap. so that leaves $15.7 million for 7 players. Listed are the Canucks needing new deals and the estimated cost to re-sign
1 - Markstrom ($5.75)
2- Toffoli ($5.0)
3 - Tanev ($4.75)
4- Stetcher ($2.5)
5 - Virtanen ($2.5)
6- McEwen ($1.0)
7- Motte ($1.0)

So this adds up to a total of $22.5 million so the Canucks would need to shed a minimum of $7million dollars to re-sign these 7 players. Even then, we return the exact same team as this year and hope individuals will be improve enough to make the team better. If you think the Canucks can move bad contracts, I don't see many options for teams interested in dead cap space and over priced contracts with bad term. Canucks cap situation for next year sucks, in fact I am predicting a down year for the Canucks next year because of their stupid asset management and poor cap structure.

I don't see Ferland rejoining the team, at least initially. LTIRing that contract takes about half of the 7 million away, at least until we can recalibrate.

You left out Gaudette too, but Virtanen+Sutter for Mittlestadt (plus presumably) to Buffalo for something, and Demko+Eriksson for Svechnikov from Detroit are both trades that give us more than the rest (actually either would get us the 7 million we need). Both trades have been offered by other teams fans in this very thread, so it's not just my fever dream.

While it will take a trade, or walking away from good player, this year isn't as bad as we've all told ourselves.

 

[Boondock]

I don't see Ferland rejoining the team, at least initially. LTIRing that contract takes about half of the 7 million away, at least until we can recalibrate.

You left out Gaudette too, but Virtanen+Sutter for Mittlestadt (plus presumably) to Buffalo for something, and Demko+Eriksson for Svechnikov from Detroit are both trades that give us more than the rest (actually either would get us the 7 million we need). Both trades have been offered by other teams fans in this very thread, so it's not just my fever dream.

While it will take a trade, or walking away from good player, this year isn't as bad as we've all told ourselves.

Well I don't see any way Detroit makes that deal. So I do not see that as a solution. Removing Sutter and Virtanen for Mittlestadt makes us a much worse team, both those 2 are top 10 forwards this season, Mittlestadt wouldn't be - a worse team than the year before during a rebuild is a bad sign. Dim Jims complete lack of foresight is coming home to roost and losing assets for nothing will be the consequence. When the Hawks did it they had at least won cups, we're selling off assets because we signed 4th liners to 4 year contracts making double what they should.

 

[Cogburn]

Well I don't see any way Detroit makes that deal. So I do not see that as a solution. Removing Sutter and Virtanen for Mittlestadt makes us a much worse team, both those 2 are top 10 forwards this season, Mittlestadt wouldn't be - a worse team than the year before during a rebuild is a bad sign. Dim Jims complete lack of foresight is coming home to roost and losing assets for nothing will be the consequence. When the Hawks did it they had at least won cups, we're selling off assets because we signed 4th liners to 4 year contracts making double what they should.

It's odd. We get fans of teams offering me deals that don't make sense to me, as an outsider to their team. A different Detroit fan offered Demko+Eriksson for a third too, just before the NHL came back. I think they really do value Demko as an asset like we do. Value could go way up or way down depending on the results of tonights game (jokes, its HF after all).

Sutter+Virtanen would hurt more to lose, absolutely. I don't like the idea, but that's a way to dump salary, as I feel losing these two for cap reasons hurts less then subtracting Markstrom or Toffoli or Tanev from the roster. Mittlestadt has pedigree and still a bit of potential, but isn't meant to replace anyone. I suppose on what the rest of the trade looks like before it's a win, a loss, or a cap casualty though.

If either come through though, and we count Ferland on LTIR given how his playoffs went, we end up with 28+ million in cap space, which is ample to replace anyone else or an equivalent through UFA.

I don't even think the 4th liners are the problem, it's that a lot of them we paid assets for in addition to the missing cap space.

 

[StroShow]

keep Demko, let Markstrom walk.

Long term deal for Markstrom would be a mistake

 

[Cogburn]

keep Demko, let Markstrom walk.

Long term deal for Markstrom would be a mistake

That would be hard for me to justify off 39 games, and with DiPietro coming up.

Long term for any goalie looks like a mistake though, I'm with you there.

 

[Boondock]

lots of

It's odd. We get fans of teams offering me deals that don't make sense to me, as an outsider to their team. A different Detroit fan offered Demko+Eriksson for a third too, just before the NHL came back. I think they really do value Demko as an asset like we do. Value could go way up or way down depending on the results of tonights game (jokes, its HF after all).

Sutter+Virtanen would hurt more to lose, absolutely. I don't like the idea, but that's a way to dump salary, as I feel losing these two for cap reasons hurts less then subtracting Markstrom or Toffoli or Tanev from the roster. Mittlestadt has pedigree and still bit of potential, but isn't meant to replace anyone. I suppose on what the rest of the trade looks like before it's a win, a loss, or a cap casualty though.

If either come through though, and we count Ferland on LTIR given how his playoffs went, we end up with 28+ million in cap space, which is ample to replace anyone else or an equivalent through UFA.

I don't even think the 4th liners are the problem, it's that a lot of them we paid assets for in addition to the missing cap space.

Lots of good points I just have a real issue with the dead or wasted cap space.
1 - $6million - Eriksson (kills penalties and any offense that comes within 200ft of him - belongs in the press box)
2 - $4.4 - Sutter (Love his effort, perfect 4th line C - $4.375 for 4th line C....)
3 - $3 x 4 years - Beagle - 4th line C probably shouldn't be in our top 12
4 - $3 x 4 years - Roussel - not producing, takes stupid penalties would rather dress McEwen
5 - $3.36 - Baertschi - love a $2.2 cap hit for a Comet forward
6 - $1.03 - Spooner buyout - sure we got out of the terrible $3+ million you paid Gagner, but still dead cap from bad management
7 - $3.5 x 4 years - Ferland, not too upset by the cap number, stupid term especially for a player with Ferland's career
8 - $4.735 - bonus money + Luongo cap recapture, not bad signings or Bennings issue, just further dead cap space

That's $27.2 million for 4th line players and dead cap space (only responsible for $22.5) that is 27+% of the total cap. Bad management.

 

[Cogburn]

lots of

Lots of good points I just have a real issue with the dead or wasted cap space.
1 - $6million - Eriksson (kills penalties and any offense that comes within 200ft of him - belongs in the press box)
2 - $4.4 - Sutter (Love his effort, perfect 4th line C - $4.375 for 4th line C....)
3 - $3 x 4 years - Beagle - 4th line C probably shouldn't be in our top 12
4 - $3 x 4 years - Roussel - not producing, takes stupid penalties would rather dress McEwen
5 - $3.36 - Baertschi - love a $2.2 cap hit for a Comet forward
6 - $1.03 - Spooner buyout - sure we got out of the terrible $3+ million you paid Gagner, but still dead cap from bad management
7 - $3.5 x 4 years - Ferland, not too upset by the cap number, stupid term especially for a player with Ferland's career
8 - $4.735 - bonus money + Luongo cap recapture, not bad signings or Bennings issue, just further dead cap space

That's $27.2 million for 4th line players and dead cap space (only responsible for $22.5) that is 27+% of the total cap. Bad management.

Yeah, Eriksson needs to be shown the door. I don't know how, over one summer, he got so bad, so quickly.
Sutter I think would be fine at half his cap hit, but we still have a year to wait on, after moving Bonino and a 2nd for him. Bad move resigning him sight unseen too. Beagle and Roussel would be ideal at a million less or more.
Beagle takes faceoffs and has been at least a little bit intimidating, and Roussel throws players off their game. Elements we need, but they are without a doubt overpaid here. I'd still rather keep them and move others first. I know I'm in a minority here, but I feel these two do make our team better, and if they were the only cap problems, things would be fine.
Baertschi needs to play or be moved. I still feel he should have been in our top nine this year, but Leivo, Roussel, Virtanen, Gaudette, Motte and Mac all made cases for themselves, and I have no issue with him being moved on from....but we should move on from him.
Spooner's buyout ends this year. I agree it was a necessary evil.
Ferland should have been thought on a little more. Concussions are not fun, I know first hand, and it is something that can creep up later. It might be LTIRed, or he may retire if things are looking bleak enough, but I too have no issue with the player at the cap hit, just his injury history.
Bonus money is worth it, Luongo's cap recapture is garbage (we're the only team that will ever be hit by that) and I think we can fit Spooner into this category too. Dead cap happens.

I agree it's awful management, and each one of these points compounds the others. I wouldn't have minded this if we were awful for another year or two, but it's become so much more pressing with the ELCs coming off the books next year too. If Demko or Virtanen or both are needed as scapegoats, to be burdened with the mistakes of the team and led outside the village, so be it. I don't want to move out either, but if it has to be done to save the rest...I mean that's a lot of evil we've discussed, in cap terms.

 

[Canuck86]

keep Demko, let Markstrom walk.

Long term deal for Markstrom would be a mistake

I agree, I would sign a quality back up goalie who has played as a 1b tho as a good veteran to help ease Demko in. You don't just run with Demko and a no name back up.

Still don't feel like Canucks GM will trust Demko to take it and run and will cave to Markstrom and his agent, but I can hold out hope

 

[Lenerdosy]

you either A - don't understand the Canucks cap - or B don't understand the Canucks cap

17 million in cap space with 16 players signed. A standard NHL roster carries 23 players, so the Canucks have $17 million to sign 7 player. The Canucks have $1.7 in bonus money that has been slid into next years cap. so that leaves $15.7 million for 7 players. Listed are the Canucks needing new deals and the estimated cost to re-sign
1 - Markstrom ($5.75)
2- Toffoli ($5.0)
3 - Tanev ($4.75)
4- Stetcher ($2.5)
5 - Virtanen ($2.5)
6- McEwen ($1.0)
7- Motte ($1.0)

So this adds up to a total of $22.5 million so the Canucks would need to shed a minimum of $7million dollars to re-sign these 7 players. Even then, we return the exact same team as this year and hope individuals will be improve enough to make the team better. If you think the Canucks can move bad contracts, I don't see many options for teams interested in dead cap space and over priced contracts with bad term. Canucks cap situation for next year sucks, in fact I am predicting a down year for the Canucks next year because of their stupid asset management and poor cap structure.

A) I undestand the cap just fine
B) I am looking for the season after where it gets REALLY bad


Only guys there that are worth keeping are Markstrom, McEwen, Motte and one of Stetcher/Tanev which I am expecting Tanev to be kept but I would rather Stetcher since he actually doesn't get hurt constantly (Tanev go lucky this year for the first time in his career). No I am looking BEYOND this season, yes next year we will have a step back, but so will many other cap crunch teams. When Quinn and Petey get paid you need somewhere in the range of 20ish mill for the 2 and then you have to replace our #2 D in Edler and his 6 mill somehow.

Markstrom is going to be interesting, theres rumors coming from Dhaliwal tha he's asking for 6+ and closer to 7, if thats the case you can't invest that in a 30 year old goalie on a long term contract. If its only 3 or less years I could see him staying but if your looking at 4+ years, goalies seem to drop off worse than Loui Eriksson at that age lol.


Virtanen is as good as gone, if we can use him to get rid of any mediocre contract thats causing us problems I want him gone and preferably for a Beagle/Roussel type contract, arbritration will be awarding him probably 3.5 mill if he went down that road for being on pace for 20 goals when the shutdown occured and we don't need that much more money sitting on the 4th line that gets to play PP2. Hoglander should be able to take that job vacancy or McEwen.

Toffoli was a rental, even before the pandemic and cap freeze it was going to be almost impossible to keep him going forward because of the cap, sometimes guys are like that, it sucks but its what it is. Would like to keep him but see no way long term to do it for after next season when things get dicey.

I am looking for the following season when we need that 20 mill for Petey/Hughes (plus another 1.7 mill from their ELC bonuses which will bring us around 22 mill needed that year) and with the cap already frozen for that season and we only have 16 mill coming off the book with Sutter/Pearson/Edler/Benn, thats where the big problem is, thats why a Beagle/Roussel and their 3+ mill contracts need to be shed for that season.

I am fine for having a down year, actually would love to see Hoglander/McEwen get a shot to play Toffolis position next season, they would be poor man versions but I think they could get the job done.

 

[Wallet Inspector]

The Demko/Markstrom situation is a tricky one. Not a Canucks fan, but I would honestly lean towards signing Demko instead, especially if it helps them keep Tanev/Toffoli.

Of course this wouldn't be complicated if Benning didn't have a hard-on for bottom six players, or if they didn't get stuck with the recapture penalty.

 

[Double Dion]

The Demko/Markstrom situation is a tricky one. Not a Canucks fan, but I would honestly lean towards signing Demko instead, especially if it helps them keep Tanev/Toffoli.

Of course this wouldn't be complicated if Benning didn't have a hard-on for bottom six players, or if they didn't get stuck with the recapture penalty.

I agree with this 100%. I'd keep Demko and let Markstrom walk. Hard thing to do though when he's the main reason your team made the playoffs. If Demko struggles it could cost Benning his job if he goes that route. I'd have interest in Demko for the Flames. I'd like them to try to acquire a Demko/Jarry type who could emerge as a starter. Goaltending is such voodoo though, so hard to predict and evaluate.

 

[Grumpy1]

you either A - don't understand the Canucks cap - or B don't understand the Canucks cap

17 million in cap space with 16 players signed. A standard NHL roster carries 23 players, so the Canucks have $17 million to sign 7 player. The Canucks have $1.7 in bonus money that has been slid into next years cap. so that leaves $15.7 million for 7 players. Listed are the Canucks needing new deals and the estimated cost to re-sign
1 - Markstrom ($5.75)
2- Toffoli ($5.0)
3 - Tanev ($4.75)
4- Stetcher ($2.5)
5 - Virtanen ($2.5)
6- McEwen ($1.0)
7- Motte ($1.0)

So this adds up to a total of $22.5 million so the Canucks would need to shed a minimum of $7million dollars to re-sign these 7 players. Even then, we return the exact same team as this year and hope individuals will be improve enough to make the team better. If you think the Canucks can move bad contracts, I don't see many options for teams interested in dead cap space and over priced contracts with bad term. Canucks cap situation for next year sucks, in fact I am predicting a down year for the Canucks next year because of their stupid asset management and poor cap structure.

Cap situation isnt bad if they let taffoli and virtanan walk. No need for either of them. Taffoli is a luxury they cant afford and $2.5 for jake is insanity