kladorf2005
Registered User
- Apr 20, 2018
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- 1,614
This is turning into a good discussion. Thanks!
See, here's where we're differing, I think. I don't think different ways of goalscoring necessarily makes someone a complete player. Jagr was a singular goalscoring talent, no doubt- others scored more goals, but nobody scored goals LIKE ol' Yammy Yags. He was immensely strong on the puck, he was big, and he had incredible hands. He had flair.
He was not as elite playmaking winger as his numbers would suggest though-- Jagr's vision was good, but he was selfish. Look at his stats-- his best years for assists were the first year post-Francis (who has been criminally underrated in this thread, btw), when the team restructured its top 6 to expressly benefit Jagr, and 2001 when Lemieux's return put him back on Jagr's line and the team went on an adrenaline-fueled tear. I'm not saying Jagr's a slouch by any means, but just that he was a player with excellent physical tools, but also had holes in his game and was as complete as some of the other players on this list like Howe and Richard.
Which brings me to my point- it takes more than a knack for individual goals to make one the best RW of all time. Jagr could cost you defensively, and he could be neutralized. Once his skating began to suffer, his minutes needed more protection (in spite of his demand to play more minutes), and more ice time meant more help to get diminishing numbers of returns. Some of the others on that list were more versatile-- Selanne's speed and smarts, for example, meant that he was deadly PKer and more use there than Jagr. Lafleur was good in any situation, even after injuries began to take their toll. Power RWs like Neely, Richard, and Howe were vastly more physical and thrived in situations that Jagr expressly didn't. Even accounting for era, Bossy was pretty much the best pure goalscorer the league has ever seen until the contemporary era. Hull was more productive as sniper and, if we're looking at individual gifts, had one of the best shots the league has ever seen. So on, so forth.
I can't disagree with anything you just said. Especially the part about him being selfish, and at times, a liability (not unlike Geno, btw). However, his strength on the puck and his hands, made for so many highlight reel goals.
I know you don't like the PPG argument, but all these guys you mentioned had so many dazzling moments throughout their careers. They all pass the "eye test" with ease. Ignoring stats, it's really just a matter of personal preference / bias. But when you bring the stats into the discussion, none of the guys you mentioned (sans Gretzky/Lemieux) had a run like Jagr had from 1993-2002.
- 153 more points than anyone else during that span (Sakic)
- 3 of the top 6 individual seasons (the other 3 were Mario, Wayne, Mario)
- 5 of the top 10 PPG seasons
- 5 Art Ross's (2 were by double digits and 1 he missed 25% of the season)
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