Post-Game Talk: Jack Johnson Era 0 -2.

[The Great Mighty Poo]

Anyone know who this is!!

Irma from the 87 Ninja Turtles cartoon, Dr. Clayton Forrester from Mystery Science Theater 3000, and Rizzo from the Muppets drugged off his tits, was I close?

 

[WayneSid9987]

The D is at the forefront of the issues and a competent 3rd line C.

In my mind:

Dumo-Letang/Marino
#2-3-Letang/Marino
MP-x
POJ
Yes, x can be Ruh for awhile if need be.
Is what they need to aim for.
This D needs a whole lotta smarts and get up and go added.
Guy like Torey Krug would be perfect but just use him as a bench mark and go from there.

On the 3rd line front, they simply have to scout another Bonino. His advanced stats said he was a very good faceoff guy/checker with some skill who made everyone he played with better.
Like we scouted him out or how WSH scouted Eller out, they need to go through that process again.

These 2 things alone can get them back in contention, imo.
It all starts with getting JJ gone and fast.
Reality is we should've lost alot more with JJ playing a prominent role but they drug him along as they made the PO's where he inevitably costs you actual games when things ratchet up. He always will get left in the dust.

 

[Pens1566]

If we're talking about hypotheticals, I'm going to take a tenure-track position at Atlantis University, which has just risen above the waves to usher in the end of days.

Eh, they're not allowing US citizens in right now.

 

[Andy99]

Haven't shined in what way?

Addison just made the WJC.

Legare has people excited.

Puustinen just tripled his numbers from last season and looks like a really nice grab at 7.

Hallander looks like a promising pick.

Simon was a fifth rounder.

Gustavsson was the piece that got the Brass deal done.

Laff and Angello were late round picks that still have bottom six potential.

I think your expectations are out of whack if you expect much more out of their drafts when JR has moved so much prime draft capital since coming over.

You may want to take a peek at the insane amount of draft capital the Bruins built up rebuilding on the fly, and how many misses they actually had, despite all those picks. They had 5 first rounders and four second rounders in a two year span.

Guess how many have panned out so far.

There is literally nothing to suggest Jr and their scouts would blow high capital draft picks, except your own pessimism.

looking promising for some I’ll grant you...but looking promising is not being a very good NHL player yet if at all...at best, it’s an incomplete...we’ll see

 

[LOGiK]

Irma from the 87 Ninja Turtles cartoon, Dr. Clayton Forrester from Mystery Science Theater 3000, and Rizzo from the Muppets drugged off his tits, was I close?

Beakmans world!

hahah

 

[Gurglesons]

The D is at the forefront of the issues and a competent 3rd line C.

In my mind:

Dumo-Letang/Marino
#2-3-Letang/Marino
MP-x
POJ
Yes, x can be Ruh for awhile if need be.
Is what they need to aim for.
This D needs a whole lotta smarts and get up and go added.
Guy like Torey Krug would be perfect but just use him as a bench mark and go from there.

On the 3rd line front, they simply have to scout another Bonino. His advanced stats said he was a very good faceoff guy/checker with some skill who made everyone he played with better.
Like we scouted him out or how WSH scouted Eller out, they need to go through that process again.

These 2 things alone can get them back in contention, imo.
It all starts with getting JJ gone and fast.
Reality is we should've lost alot more with JJ playing a prominent role but they drug him along as they made the PO's where he inevitably costs you actual games when things ratchet up. He always will get left in the dust.

Actually Bones advanced stats said neither of those.

 

[WayneSid9987]

Actually Bones advanced stats said neither of those.

His career in ANA and VAN said he made everyone he played with better. I'm 100% on that.
The with and without you's stats.

 

[Gurglesons]

His career in ANA and VAN said he made everyone he played with better. I'm 100% on that.
The with and without you's stats.

Nope. The real analytic darling of that trade was when we signed Fehr.

Bonino prior to coming here had one positive corsi season and his goal scoring was largely a case of overachieving by the stats.

Rutherford said that their “internal” analytics showed him in a great light though maybe that is what you are referring too.

 

[Pittsburgh1776]

So basically keep spinning their wheels because you just suggested doing exactly what hasn't been working the last two years.

Malkin and Crosby aren't going to suddenly die in a couple years. They can still be very effective players well into their mid and late 30s like Lidstrom and Yzerman were.

It's time to stop bleeding assets chasing band-aid solutions and rebuild on the fly properly.

I don't think it's what they've been doing for the last two years, at all. This isn't the team Sullivan wanted, nor was it last year. And it's extremely weird to have that kind of disconnect between GM and coach. We went way away from the kind of team that won the Cup in 2016/2017, when we should have been focusing on speed and tenacity to surround Crosby and Malkin. Rutherford went the opposite way and I don't have any explanation for it. It was a talented roster and I think Sullivan didn't manage it correctly, but there's a real opportunity to shed the players that don't fit and get some lesser lights who fit better with what this coach wants.

There's no guarantee Malkin will even be here. He's had a lot of hard miles with injuries and playing style and I just don't see him being effective into his late 30s. He isn't that type of player. Crosby, yes...but age catches up to everyone. Let's focus on the next two years while we know we have them and they are capable of being true difference makers. We can still set the team up for success afterwards, just not at the level we might want...pending Monday evening.

 

[WayneSid9987]

Nope. The real analytic darling of that trade was when we signed Fehr.

Bonino prior to coming here had one positive corsi season and his goal scoring was largely a case of overachieving by the stats.

Rutherford said that their “internal” analytics showed him in a great light though maybe that is what you are referring too.

I know for sure Bones had good WoWy's where someone like Sutter on VAN had the worst and Bones had some of the best. Why i liked the deal when it happened.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

I still don't think Geno will be dealt unless he is the one who initiates the process. Part of me wonders if he will, to be honest. Again, he's always been about winning first and foremost, and if we can see how far this team is away, I'm sure Geno's got an even better idea.

The thing is, we can't really wait another season to shake things up. Not regarding Geno or Letang, but the front office/coaching staff. We can't just shrug and say "Eh, they're on thin ice now. If we don't have a dramatically better performance this season coming up, they're fired." Because, well, if we have another bad showing, the core's suddenly 34/35 years old and that doesn't bode well for winning in today's NHL. Do I think Sid and Geno will become 40pt guys overnight? No. But no team has won with a core as old as ours since the Wings won in 2001-02, and that NHL landscape may as well be the stone age compared to today's game.

I think you gotta go hard this off-season. Completely scorched earth the front office and coaching staff, get new eyes/voices in here and work your ass off for the next calendar year revamping the roster for one last run. That's the "one last shot" approach. The other approach is to begin the big sell off™ now, try to go for a rebuild over 3 years or so, and see if you can get back to Cup contention with Crosby surrounded by youth and depth.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

I don't think it's what they've been doing for the last two years, at all. This isn't the team Sullivan wanted, nor was it last year. And it's extremely weird to have that kind of disconnect between GM and coach. We went way away from the kind of team that won the Cup in 2016/2017, when we should have been focusing on speed and tenacity to surround Crosby and Malkin. Rutherford went the opposite way and I don't have any explanation for it. It was a talented roster and I think Sullivan didn't manage it correctly, but there's a real opportunity to shed the players that don't fit and get some lesser lights who fit better with what this coach wants.

There's no guarantee Malkin will even be here. He's had a lot of hard miles with injuries and playing style and I just don't see him being effective into his late 30s. He isn't that type of player. Crosby, yes...but age catches up to everyone. Let's focus on the next two years while we know we have them and they are capable of being true difference makers. We can still set the team up for success afterwards, just not at the level we might want...pending Monday evening.

You are basically thinking the same thing as me, except we disagree on the approach to get there.

I no longer think bleeding away major assets is going to get them towards their goal of a young, tenacious and hungry team built on speed.

This org needs to learn to say goodbye to players who helped them win cups and move on. Bringing back Sheary and Cullen were moves of desperation trying to recapture that cup magic.

They can't keep thinking that way and its time to move on.

If that means guys like Letang, Hornqvist and Murray are moved, then so be it.

If there is a deal for Dumo or Rust that could bring in a good young player, I'm ok with that to.

The only guys who should be safe are Crosby, Malkin and Guentzel.

I was also clamoring all season to move Schultz for an asset, instead of letting him walk. Even if they had landed a second in this draft for him, that would have been a big asset to help move up with the 15th pick.

Unfortunately, JR wasn't thinking beyond this season and thats exactly the point I'm trying to make here.

 

[Pittsburgh1776]

You are basically thinking the same thing as me, except we disagree on the approach to get there.

I no longer think bleeding away major assets is going to get them towards their goal of a young, tenacious and hungry team built on speed.

This org needs to learn to say goodbye to players who helped them win cups and move on. Bringing back Sheary and Cullen were moves of desperation trying to recapture that cup magic.

They can't keep thinking that way and its time to move on.

If that means guys like Letang, Hornqvist and Murray are moved, then so be it.

If there is a deal for Dumo or Rust that could bring in a good young player, I'm ok with that to.

The only guys who should be safe are Crosby, Malkin and Guentzel.

I was also clamoring all season to move Schultz for an asset, instead of letting him walk. Even if they had landed a second in this draft for him, that would have been a big asset to help move up with the 15th pick.

Unfortunately, JR wasn't thinking beyond this season and thats exactly the point I'm trying to make here.

Ok, I mean I agree with all of this, I just think we don't need to accept not being contenders. I think we can be contenders with the right fits, the players that Sullivan wants. If you're keeping the coach then make him happy.

To the other poster, I didn't mean Malkin won't be here this season. I think he absolutely will. I just don't know about after this deal. I've never felt he would be a successful late-age player, once the legs go. His game has always been predicated on speed and when that goes so will he.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

I think we're all in agreement that some serious work needs to be done to this roster in order to get us back up to the level of being serious contenders again, yeah? That being said, even if everything is done and goes well, we're still probably looking at a calendar year's worth of work.

Does anyone genuinely believe that this GM and coach are the right guys for that job anymore? Or that a change to the GM/coach and the new eyes/approach that come with it would be a terrible thing?

We barely made the playoffs last year only to get our asses handed to us by the Isles. We didn't even manage to make it into the 1st round after losing the qualifiers to the 24th ranked team in the NHL this season. Things are rotten, friends. Big changes need to be made, and they need to happen immediately, imo. No time to wait another year and see what happens. Sid and Geno will be 34 and 35 by this time next year. One team in the last 20 years has won a Cup with a core that old, and it was the Wings in 2001-02, in an era of hockey much, much slower than this one.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

You are basically thinking the same thing as me, except we disagree on the approach to get there.

I no longer think bleeding away major assets is going to get them towards their goal of a young, tenacious and hungry team built on speed.

This org needs to learn to say goodbye to players who helped them win cups and move on. Bringing back Sheary and Cullen were moves of desperation trying to recapture that cup magic.

They can't keep thinking that way and its time to move on.

If that means guys like Letang, Hornqvist and Murray are moved, then so be it.

If there is a deal for Dumo or Rust that could bring in a good young player, I'm ok with that to.

The only guys who should be safe are Crosby, Malkin and Guentzel.

I was also clamoring all season to move Schultz for an asset, instead of letting him walk. Even if they had landed a second in this draft for him, that would have been a big asset to help move up with the 15th pick.

Unfortunately, JR wasn't thinking beyond this season and thats exactly the point I'm trying to make here.

Even if JR was thinking of just this season, he should have moved Schultz. Schultz hurt their chances this year.

 

[Varan]

Funny how relationships can override incompetence. Everyone should be gone because this was embarrassing. It's literally Dan Bylsma 2.0. Making no changes and relying on the same old habits year in and year out.

I don't know how much longer Sid and Geno can still be impactful players before their inevitable downfall. Do you go the Chicago route and go all-in for one last title, then be hamstrung in the future?

Or is it rebuilding time? They have been awful in the last 2 playoffs. Something has to give.

 

[Gurglesons]

I think we're all in agreement that some serious work needs to be done to this roster in order to get us back up to the level of being serious contenders again, yeah? That being said, even if everything is done and goes well, we're still probably looking at a calendar year's worth of work.

Does anyone genuinely believe that this GM and coach are the right guys for that job anymore? Or that a change to the GM/coach and the new eyes/approach that come with it would be a terrible thing?

We barely made the playoffs last year only to get our asses handed to us by the Isles. We didn't even manage to make it into the 1st round after losing the qualifiers to the 24th ranked team in the NHL this season. Things are rotten, friends. Big changes need to be made, and they need to happen immediately, imo. No time to wait another year and see what happens. Sid and Geno will be 34 and 35 by this time next year. One team in the last 20 years has won a Cup with a core that old, and it was the Wings in 2001-02, in an era of hockey much, much slower than this one.

If you reward Sullivan and Rutherford both with their jobs after essentially not winning a playoff game in two calendar years, I don’t know how you justify the type of responsibility the players need to take for this loss.

Sullivan won out on Kessel and his team was worse in the clutch because of it. Not necessarily because we didn’t have Phil, but we scapegoated him.

One if not both should be gone.

 

[Jaded-Fan]

Yes they are all a bit older.

But does no one remember this same reaction of "its all over, woe is us" right before the back to back cups?

It was really not that long ago. And sounded a lot like this.

The front office finally got over their size fixation and looked for speed and skill again.

Recognizing the problem and having a plan that I can agree with and get behind is half the battle.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

If you reward Sullivan and Rutherford both with their jobs after essentially not winning a playoff game in two calendar years, I don’t know how you justify the type of responsibility the players need to take for this loss.

Sullivan won out on Kessel and his team was worse in the clutch because of it. Not necessarily because we didn’t have Phil, but we scapegoated him.

One if not both should be gone.

That's kind of a key thing for me.

We got rid of "the problem" last off season, yet the end result and performance in the playoffs was essentially the exact same as when we had "the problem".

I'm not saying keeping Kessel was the answer, but it's clear the issues go deeper than just one player the coach didn't like.

 

[Gurglesons]

That's kind of a key thing for me.

We got rid of "the problem" last off season, yet the end result and performance in the playoffs was essentially the exact same as when we had "the problem".

I'm not saying keeping Kessel was the answer, but it's clear the issues go deeper than just one player the coach didn't like.

Moving out Kessel was the smart move. That being said it seemed to be made for the wrong reason.

If we let JR and Sully stay at move out Letang in a similar package, we are speeding up the inevitable decline.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

Yes they are all a bit older.

But does no one remember this same reaction of "its all over, woe is us" right before the back to back cups?

It was really not that long ago. And sounded a lot like this.

The front office finally got over their size fixation and looked for speed and skill again.

Recognizing the problem and having a plan that I can agree with and get behind is half the battle.

Yeah man in reality it's only been a few short years but in sport a few years is forever at this stage of Malkin/Crosby's careers. It hurts to say but they just aren't those guys anymore. How many smoking one-timers does Malkin rip into the back of the net every year... like 4? How many times does Crosby charge through the NZ, split the D and flip a backhand?

There is still a lot of their games intact but there is a lot that has faded hard. They need REAL and DIRECT help, now.

Maybe not a defense playing behind them that knocks pucks into their own net and can't make a uncontested 5 foot pass without a minor miracle, too.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

If you reward Sullivan and Rutherford both with their jobs after essentially not winning a playoff game in two calendar years, I don’t know how you justify the type of responsibility the players need to take for this loss.

Sullivan won out on Kessel and his team was worse in the clutch because of it. Not necessarily because we didn’t have Phil, but we scapegoated him.

One if not both should be gone.

That's kind of a key thing for me.

We got rid of "the problem" last off season, yet the end result and performance in the playoffs was essentially the exact same as when we had "the problem".

I'm not saying keeping Kessel was the answer, but it's clear the issues go deeper than just one player the coach didn't like.

Kessel provided tertiary scoring that helped when Crosby and Malkin were hurt or struggling. He was a critical part of the PP. And incredibly rare for this team, he was always healthy.

That's gone now. That has an effect.

Now he's scored more than any Penguin in the play-in, and is tied for the lead in scoring on a team that's moving on.

Kessel was not the problem. Sullivan's narrow and misguided perspective of what constitutes a valuable contributor is the problem.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

Yeah man in reality it's only been a few short years but in sport a few years is forever at this stage of Malkin/Crosby's careers. It hurts to say but they just aren't those guys anymore. How many smoking one-timers does Malkin rip into the back of the net every year... like 4? How many times does Crosby charge through the NZ, split the D and flip a backhand?

There is still a lot of their games intact but there is a lot that has faded hard. They need REAL and DIRECT help, now.

Maybe not a defense playing behind them that knocks pucks into their own net and can't make a uncontested 5 foot pass without a minor miracle, too.

Maybe now people will understand better my point even before the series began about our roster not having enough "offense creators" to give Sid and Geno some help. Having a bunch of complimentary pieces who can be productive as long as Sid/Geno do all the heavy lifting isn't going to cut it as the two of them age.

 

[Gurglesons]

Kessel provided tertiary scoring that helped when Crosby and Malkin were hurt or struggling. And incredibly rare for this team, he was always healthy.

That's gone now. That has an effect.

Now he's scored more than any Penguin in the play-in, and is tied for the lead in scoring on a team that's moving on.

Kessel was not the problem. Sullivan's narrow and misguided perspective of what constitutes a valuable contributor is the problem.

Kessel was a problem and was ultimately more of a negative influence than a positive last year.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

Maybe now people will understand better my point even before the series began about our roster not having enough "offense creators" to give Sid and Geno some help. Having a bunch of complimentary pieces who can be productive as long as Sid/Geno do all the heavy lifting isn't going to cut it as the two of them age.

I admit that I bought in prior to this play-in. I wanted to see it. Was desperate for them to make good on a terrific opportunity.

But yeah... shoulda stuck to my guns. Some great names but terrible fits and in the end way too much just... vanilla AF players.