Jack Eichel ranking amongst top players

[Spilot23]

Defense isn’t a strong suit for either one of Eichel or Matthews, and they’re about even in that department. What makes Matthews the far superior player is his offense.

The “far superior player” lmao. The only thing Matthews has over Eichel is his goal scoring and probably wrister but that's arguable IMO. It will be a great debate who’s better than who through their career but none of them is “far superior” than the other so far.

 

[Connor McConnor]

Top 15. Guy doesn't impress me like a top 10-15 player when I've seen him live (I've watched him 5 times so far) except on the PP and a few plays here and there. I've seen highlights of him being a dominant player but I can' say I've seen it much with my own eyes compared to others.

 

[TomasHertlsRooster]

The “far superior player” lmao. The only thing Matthews has over Eichel is his goal scoring and probably wrister but that's arguable IMO. It will be a great debate who’s better than who through their career but none of them is “far superior” than the other so far.

If Matthews has absolutely nothing over Eichel than goal scoring, why does Matthews score 5-on-5 primary assists at a higher rate than Eichel over the past 3 seasons?

 

[Spilot23]

If Matthews has absolutely nothing over Eichel than goal scoring, why does Matthews score 5-on-5 primary assists at a higher rate than Eichel over the past 3 seasons?

Because this game isn’t only played at ES? Also look at Eichel linemates boy I watched him last night. It looked like a midget player playing along with some pee wee players it was sad.

 

[TomasHertlsRooster]

Because this game isn’t only played at ES? Also look at Eichel linemates boy I watched him last night. It looked like a midget player playing along with some pee wee players it was sad.

But you said the only thing that Matthews has over Eichel is his goal scoring.

At 5-on-5, here are their most common linemates and their 5-on-5 goal scoring rates over that sample:

Eichel's linemates:

Forwards:

Sam Reinhart (0.79)
Jeff Skinner (1.14)
Jason Pominville (0.84)
Victor Olofsson (0.43)

Defensemen:

Rasmus Ristolainen (0.15)
Jake McCabe (0.16)
Marco Scandella (0.25)
Rasmus Dahlin (0.18)


Matthews' linemates:

Forwards:

William Nylander (0.8)
Zach Hyman (0.76)
Andreas Johnsson (0.81)
Kasperi Kapanen (0.79)

Defensemen:

Morgan Rielly (0.36)
Jake Gardiner (0.16)
Ron Hainsey (0.12)
Nikita Zaitsev (0.15)

Eichel does have the worst forward linemate in Olofsson, but he's also got by far the best forward linemate in Skinner, and he' spent considerably less time with Olofsson. Really, their linemates aren't too far off in terms of goal-scoring ability. I do think Matthews benefits more from his situation than Eichel does, but the gap isn't nearly as big as you think it is.

Also, goal scoring is a big f***ing deal. Even if Eichel is equal or superior in everything else, Matthews scores 5-on-5 goals at a 61.5% higher rate than Eichel. He's way, way better than Eichel. That far outweighs anything that Eichel does better, and it's really not close. And any regression based on their on-ice results over this sample will tell you the same thing:

Again, their defense is splitting hairs, but Matthews is a lot better offensively.

 

[Cats2TheCup]

#11

 

[Cats2TheCup]

It'll be so interesting to see how far Eichel, Matthews and Co drop once Barkov returns next season injury free. Would be a shame to shuffle Eichel up ahead of Barkov the one season Barkov has been nursing an injury. Would be more fair if both were healthy. That's okay. Enjoy, JackAttack.

 

[valet]

But you said the only thing that Matthews has over Eichel is his goal scoring.

At 5-on-5, here are their most common linemates and their 5-on-5 goal scoring rates over that sample:

Eichel's linemates:

Forwards:

Sam Reinhart (0.79)
Jeff Skinner (1.14)
Jason Pominville (0.84)
Victor Olofsson (0.43)

Defensemen:

Rasmus Ristolainen (0.15)
Jake McCabe (0.16)
Marco Scandella (0.25)
Rasmus Dahlin (0.18)


Matthews' linemates:

Forwards:

William Nylander (0.8)
Zach Hyman (0.76)
Andreas Johnsson (0.81)
Kasperi Kapanen (0.79)

Defensemen:

Morgan Rielly (0.36)
Jake Gardiner (0.16)
Ron Hainsey (0.12)
Nikita Zaitsev (0.15)

Eichel does have the worst forward linemate in Olofsson, but he's also got by far the best forward linemate in Skinner, and he' spent considerably less time with Olofsson. Really, their linemates aren't too far off in terms of goal-scoring ability. I do think Matthews benefits more from his situation than Eichel does, but the gap isn't nearly as big as you think it is.

Also, goal scoring is a big ****ing deal. Even if Eichel is equal or superior in everything else, Matthews scores 5-on-5 goals at a 61.5% higher rate than Eichel. He's way, way better than Eichel. That far outweighs anything that Eichel does better, and it's really not close. And any regression based on their on-ice results over this sample will tell you the same thing:

View attachment 317083

Again, their defense is splitting hairs, but Matthews is a lot better offensively.

Eichel plays on the first line. Matthews plays on the second. Considering the obvious disparity between those two facts, the slight GF advantage doesn't really say much. And where are you getting this 61.5% higher number? It looks like it's only 1/3rd of a standard deviation, playing against inferior competition, on a much better team that plays an all offense system. Please at least understand the charts if you're going to throw them around as gospel. Context is your friend.

This "defense splitting hairs" thing is also totally ridiculous. Eichel's defense makes up for the minuscule advantage of Matthew's GF% via standard deviations. Your whole argument is flawed. Why does Eichel perform about the same as Matthews while taking tougher matchups? Could it be that he is... as most hockey fans outside of Toronto agree, better? I just don't get your logic.

 

[Orange Fanta]

It'll be so interesting to see how far Eichel, Matthews and Co drop once Barkov returns next season injury free. Would be a shame to shuffle Eichel up ahead of Barkov the one season Barkov has been nursing an injury. Would be more fair if both were healthy. That's okay. Enjoy, JackAttack.

Jack has had two high ankle sprains he was a better player than his numbers indicated in previous years and constantly underrated he still might be. Only Mcdavid has a worse supporting class than eichel of other superstars in the league then again the sabres are probably battling for lafreniere without eichel

 

[Mattilaus]

Jack has had two high ankle sprains he was a better player than his numbers indicated in previous years and constantly underrated he still might be. Only Mcdavid has a worse supporting class than eichel of other superstars in the league then again the sabres are probably battling for lafreniere without eichel

At the rate we are going we will be battling for Lafreniere WITH Eichel.

 

[Orange Fanta]

At the rate we are going we will be battling for Lafreniere WITH Eichel.

It is mind bogglingly frustrating

 

[Quiet Jack]

If Matthews has absolutely nothing over Eichel than goal scoring, why does Matthews score 5-on-5 primary assists at a higher rate than Eichel over the past 3 seasons?

I'm not looking for an argument here and I agree with what you say a lot on this site. But I just don't see what you're accomplishing with this post. Any sane person knows there is absolutely no way that Eichel is better than Matthews at EVERYTHING except scoring goals. Even you saying Matthews is better at 5-on-5 primary assists (strange stat) is like you are saying that ok, Eichel is better at everything except two facets of hockey.

I don't know what my point is. I've had a day.

 

[Paul4587]

But you said the only thing that Matthews has over Eichel is his goal scoring.

At 5-on-5, here are their most common linemates and their 5-on-5 goal scoring rates over that sample:

Eichel's linemates:

Forwards:

Sam Reinhart (0.79)
Jeff Skinner (1.14)
Jason Pominville (0.84)
Victor Olofsson (0.43)

Defensemen:

Rasmus Ristolainen (0.15)
Jake McCabe (0.16)
Marco Scandella (0.25)
Rasmus Dahlin (0.18)


Matthews' linemates:

Forwards:

William Nylander (0.8)
Zach Hyman (0.76)
Andreas Johnsson (0.81)
Kasperi Kapanen (0.79)

Defensemen:

Morgan Rielly (0.36)
Jake Gardiner (0.16)
Ron Hainsey (0.12)
Nikita Zaitsev (0.15)

Eichel does have the worst forward linemate in Olofsson, but he's also got by far the best forward linemate in Skinner, and he' spent considerably less time with Olofsson. Really, their linemates aren't too far off in terms of goal-scoring ability. I do think Matthews benefits more from his situation than Eichel does, but the gap isn't nearly as big as you think it is.

Also, goal scoring is a big ****ing deal. Even if Eichel is equal or superior in everything else, Matthews scores 5-on-5 goals at a 61.5% higher rate than Eichel. He's way, way better than Eichel. That far outweighs anything that Eichel does better, and it's really not close. And any regression based on their on-ice results over this sample will tell you the same thing:

View attachment 317083

Again, their defense is splitting hairs, but Matthews is a lot better offensively.

Sorry if this is a dumb question but is that GF/60 and xGF/60 their individual metrics or their team metrics while they're on the ice? I've always assumed it's the latter but the way you've presented your argument implies it's the former.

 

[TomasHertlsRooster]

Eichel plays on the first line. Matthews plays on the second. Considering the obvious disparity between those two facts, the slight GF advantage doesn't really say much. And where are you getting this 61.5% higher number? It looks like it's only 1/3rd of a standard deviation, playing against inferior competition, on a much better team that plays an all offense system. Please at least understand the charts if you're going to throw them around as gospel. Context is your friend.

This "defense splitting hairs" thing is also totally ridiculous. Eichel's defense makes up for the minuscule advantage of Matthew's GF% via standard deviations. Your whole argument is flawed. Why does Eichel perform about the same as Matthews while taking tougher matchups? Could it be that he is... as most hockey fans outside of Toronto agree, better? I just don't get your logic.

RAPM GF/60 on that chart does not represent the same thing as individual goal scoring rate. It seems that you’re the one who does not understand the chart that I posted and how it relates to the rest of these concepts.

I'm not looking for an argument here and I agree with what you say a lot on this site. But I just don't see what you're accomplishing with this post. Any sane person knows there is absolutely no way that Eichel is better than Matthews at EVERYTHING except scoring goals. Even you saying Matthews is better at 5-on-5 primary assists (strange stat) is like you are saying that ok, Eichel is better at everything except two facets of hockey.

I don't know what my point is. I've had a day.

Are you not aware that my post was in response to somebody who said that Eichel is better in every facet of the game except for goal scoring and possibly wrist shot (which is part of goal scoring)?

 

[TomasHertlsRooster]

Sorry if this is a dumb question but is that GF/60 and xGF/60 their individual metrics or their team metrics while they're on the ice? I've always assumed it's the latter but the way you've presented your argument implies it's the former.

It’s a player’s on-ice results minus predictor variables such as teammates, competition, score, zone, etc.

My argument was meant to address both factors. One, Matthews’ individual primary scoring rates compared to Eichel’s. Two, Matthews’ regressed on-ice results compared to Eichel’s. Matthews is certainly superior in both regards, but less so according to the regressed on-ice metrics.

 

[Quiet Jack]

Are you not aware that my post was in response to somebody who said that Eichel is better in every facet of the game except for goal scoring and possibly wrist shot (which is part of goal scoring)?

I am. That was also stupid. But I'm (unfortunately) a Sabres fan so I replied to you.

 

[Green Snow Storm]

I like how OP said he'd trade Tavares for Eichel as if Eichel isn't also clearly superior to Matthews.

Voted top 5.

Clearly? Get a grip.

 

[Green Snow Storm]

I voted top 10 by accident, didn’t read the thread premise

In a fantasy draft the top 5 is McDavid, Mackinnon, Eichel, Matthews, Barkov. Those 5 IMO are the most valuable assets in the NHL.

Agreed. I don't think a GM would take a winger in the top 5. Maybe someone like Draisaitl who can play down the middle as well. McDavid, MacKinnon, Matthews, Eichel, and Draisaitl are likely the 5 picked. Maybe Barkov sneaks in there in place of someone. In which order you can argue all day. I even think GM's might take a player like Pettersson in a fantasy draft scenario before a player like Pastrnak is taken.

 

[valet]

RAPM GF/60 on that chart does not represent the same thing as individual goal scoring rate. It seems that you’re the one who does not understand the chart that I posted and how it relates to the rest of these concepts.



Are you not aware that my post was in response to somebody who said that Eichel is better in every facet of the game except for goal scoring and possibly wrist shot (which is part of goal scoring)?

No, you're just not making a real argument. Goal scoring rate is not the sole metric that we evaluate players by (especially when one player plays against tougher competition on a worse team).

Why even post an RAPM chart if it's not part of what you're trying to say? It just doesn't make any sense. And you still haven't addressed the gap in defense, strength of linemates, and quality of competition, all of which are extremely important factors.

 

[Merrrlin]

Top 15, franchise talent.

In the tier below McDavid and MacKinnon, with Mathews and Barkov, above the Marner and Huberdeau tier.

 

[Tage2Tuch]

If Matthews has absolutely nothing over Eichel than goal scoring, why does Matthews score 5-on-5 primary assists at a higher rate than Eichel over the past 3 seasons?

dude you Admittedly don’t watch either guy regularly why are you even talking about this. Because you have links to advanced stats? That’s some profound knowledge you’re dishing us. The Same ones that made you start that brilliant Carlson sucks thread. You just hold incredible bias against eichel, you didn’t even want to think he was a top twenty player just two months ago. You’ve even admitted when buffalo played San Jose last year that you were impressed with eichel after “finally watching him”.

you’re a stats guy who picks up apart advanced numbers like their gospel.

Matthews not only has the benefit of playing motivated hockey (his team has something to play for) While jack doesent but it hasn’t stopped him from producing points in 31 of his last 35 games. Even tonight only the fourth time in two months he hasn’t gotten on the board was still on the ice for nearly every goal and finished a plus two. He’s had two seoerate point steaks over ten games this year while Matthews has literally not only gone pointless but been invisible in at least ten games this year. (Said by multiple people on tsn panels a month ago before he started his scoring spree)

Matthews has the advantage of having depth on his team so he doesent always have to face the best defenders. Eichel literally has to scratch and claw for everything he gets on buffalo.

i guess those advanced numbers don’t tell that story. And how eichel is the only player on buffalo you have to focus on yet he still walks around everyone with ease. And you hate it. You can’t honestly think Matthews is on par with eichel defensively this season when he has literally been -3 on a few occasions this season in awful performances where his own fans who love him were up in arms with how he was playing, he had games where he flat out turned the puck over in the neutral zone that either lead to the go ahead goal for the other team or the winning goal. And worse yet that was the only time he popped up all night. Not only has eichel been way better defensively but he was tops in the league in offensive zone possession and transition. He owns number one in both categories at different parts of the season for three straight years! Taking the puck out of the defensive zone better then anyone in the league is a pretty damn good quality for a defensive forward as is spending the most time in the league with the puck on your stick in the other end. Both are underrated aspects to playing good defensive hockey as a forward. But again, those advanced numbers won’t tell you that. Just Keep talking about players in the Bay Area. Stick to what you watch. It won’t sound so outdated.

 

[Tage2Tuch]

Clearly? Get a grip.

amazing how so many people have a problem with a guy saying clearly, yet legions of leaf fans have said things like Matthews wAs a completely diferent fief then eichel.

“eichel was being compared to the wrong leaf” (CLWM said this in reference to marner) and that eichel wasn’t in his league

IPS said eichel drove ROR out of town because of his narcissistic ways and he wasn’t as good as ROR either.

Isaac Nootin, Voight, North Hollywood, Dekes for dangles or whatever that name is I could go on and on about people who thought Matthews had eclipsed eichel, and was considerably better at every level (that was always good considering how close the two always were) even before.

infacr despite eichels continued progression forward those names I mentioned above and several more would get irate if a poster said eichels had higher offensive potential. The replies “based on what!!!” But this year because he’s finally getting some air time people think it’s just one huge transformation. No....he’s gotten better but he’s always been damn good and people just thought I was only biased. I can’t tell you how satisfying it is to know I always knew what I was talking about with this.

Yet everyone is throwing a hissy fit because ONE guy said the word clearly. Calm down.

 

[Prarievarg]

Top 5

 

[newfy]

Top 10 for sure.

I think McDavid, Draisatl and Mackinnon are definitely ahead. Could Eichel grab one of the last two spots in the top 5? Maybe but I thnk theres abetter argment for some other guy like Kane, Pasta, Marchand, Kucherov or Panarin.