Post-Game Talk: Isles 6, Pens 3

[CrozJawz*]

This team lacks in a LOT of areas:

Biggest thing they lack is SIZE. Bigger, heavier teams tend to grind them into submission by the end of the game. And the fact that the top 4 dmen consist of Charming soft midgets is disturbing...

The 4th line is ungodly bad. They literally provide NOTHING when they are out there, and just exist to give everyone else a rest. What was it, two months ago when they played the Canucks and Steigy was commenting how Vancouver's 4th line had already produced something like 28 points while the Pens 4th line had what, 5 or 6? What do they have now? They'll be lucky to get to 20 points by the end of the season. Teams like the Hawks, Rangers, Lighting, etc have serious scoring depth and literally every line is a threat when they step on the ice. What teams in the league are worried that Adams, Sill, and Goc are going to light the lamp?

This team is mentally weak as well and have been for some time and the "core" of the team are the worst offenders. Sid, Geno, Fleury, and Letang routinely get easily agitated by the opposing team and get off their game and start taking stupid penalties as a result. Saw it in the Philly series in 2012, Boston series in 2013, etc, etc, etc. Teams have noticed how easy it is to knock them off their game and now begin the assault and frustration campaign right from the puck drop.

And for all the talk about how "deep" the Pens are defensively, they look terribad far too often. Scuderi, Martin, Ehrhoff are super soft physically and it is sad that one of the smallest defensemen, Letang is the biggest hitter in the top 4. They have a hard time clearing the net in front of Fleury, get overpowered when someone drives the net far too often and lose board battles with ease. Add to the fact that they really have a difficult time clearing their own end against teams that forecheck them aggressively. They are constantly dropping it back and circling in the defensive zone just trying to find a way out of their own end!

While the rest of the league is stocking up on big forwards and bulky defensemen to make playoff runs, the Pens have been getting smaller and smaller...

 

[Asuna]

Little off topic but I came across this...when the **** did this happen lmfao


https://imgur.com/PiRYjNG


Edit: how does one insert a gif?

 

[Lomez]

Let's see if we get confident, quirky MAF or the doe-in-the-headlights MAF with a case of the shakes...

 

[Speaking Moistly]

Little off topic but I came across this...when the **** did this happen lmfao


https://imgur.com/PiRYjNG


Edit: how does one insert a gif?

Get the actual url of the image and then click the insert image icon. The code is

but I'm going to guess that getting the url was the problem.

Caps game, I think.

 

[Asuna]

Get the actual url of the image and then click the insert image icon. The code is

but I'm going to guess that getting the url was the problem.

Caps game, I think.

Ohh okay. Thanks.

Yeah that's Crosby judo flipping Niskanen lolol.

 

[CorpseLW]

this team needs to be re-built around Sid, Hornqvist, Maata, etc. while getting ride of some of the players who aren't strong enough and who cannot pass and move like a confident NHL hockey team.

This team has been **** to watch since 1 year into the Dan Bylsma era. It's not going change overnight, but the GM needs to make changes. too weak, poor on possession.

 

[djt153]

results certainly weren't there, but not agreeing with anyone who thinks that last nights game wasn't fun to watch.

 

[shizno*]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QqgmJsv2ql0

 

[Hophog]

This team lacks in a LOT of areas:

Biggest thing they lack is SIZE. Bigger, heavier teams tend to grind them into submission by the end of the game. And the fact that the top 4 dmen consist of Charming soft midgets is disturbing...

The 4th line is ungodly bad. They literally provide NOTHING when they are out there, and just exist to give everyone else a rest. What was it, two months ago when they played the Canucks and Steigy was commenting how Vancouver's 4th line had already produced something like 28 points while the Pens 4th line had what, 5 or 6? What do they have now? They'll be lucky to get to 20 points by the end of the season. Teams like the Hawks, Rangers, Lighting, etc have serious scoring depth and literally every line is a threat when they step on the ice. What teams in the league are worried that Adams, Sill, and Goc are going to light the lamp?

This team is mentally weak as well and have been for some time and the "core" of the team are the worst offenders. Sid, Geno, Fleury, and Letang routinely get easily agitated by the opposing team and get off their game and start taking stupid penalties as a result. Saw it in the Philly series in 2012, Boston series in 2013, etc, etc, etc. Teams have noticed how easy it is to knock them off their game and now begin the assault and frustration campaign right from the puck drop.

And for all the talk about how "deep" the Pens are defensively, they look terribad far too often. Scuderi, Martin, Ehrhoff are super soft physically and it is sad that one of the smallest defensemen, Letang is the biggest hitter in the top 4. They have a hard time clearing the net in front of Fleury, get overpowered when someone drives the net far too often and lose board battles with ease. Add to the fact that they really have a difficult time clearing their own end against teams that forecheck them aggressively. They are constantly dropping it back and circling in the defensive zone just trying to find a way out of their own end!

While the rest of the league is stocking up on big forwards and bulky defensemen to make playoff runs, the Pens have been getting smaller and smaller...

I agree with a large portion of this post but I don't necessarily agree with the bolded. I believe teams are still trying to knock Geno and Sid off their game but, so far this year, I think they've made made significant strides in keeping their composure. I don't feel like Malkin, in particular, has been as easily upset. I'm going to give credit to the new coach for that but I have no idea if he actually has anything to do with it.

The rest of the small soft team talk I agree with and I blame Shero for believing the league was serious about cutting down on the interference and obstruction stuff. In theory a small, fast, slippery, skilled team is the way to go if your not allowed to use brute force slow them down but we all know that's not the case in the playoffs when it counts but Shero never seemed to figure that out.

IMO the Pens lack identity. They have a few skilled players with speed, a couple big guys that aren't particularly tough, a couple gritty players and then you have a couple guys that are built for puck possession and the others are north and south guys. It doesn't seem that they have a big enough group that fits a certain style that would define them as a certain style of team. I think Rutherford seems to be doing a good job of making some moves that actually make sense but I don't think he can do enough this season to make the Pens favorites to win the big one. Don't get me wrong, I think the Pens have a chance at beating any team in a best of seven series but they aren't good enough that I would put money on them beating any playoff contender in any series. I think they will be more fun to watch, this season, if we all lower our expectations and just hope for the best. We aren't going to have the perfect team going into the playoffs this year..

 

[Michael8771*]

We're not beating the Islanders unless major changes to the system take place. Piss poor puck management which constantly fed their transition, an abysmal 4th line and terrible goaltending by MAF as the game unfolded. We also generated a grand total of ONE shot on goal the final 13 minutes of the game. Other than that we were superb!

 

[shizno*]

We're not beating the Islanders unless major changes to the system take place. Piss poor puck management which constantly fed their transition, an abysmal 4th line and terrible goaltending by MAF as the game unfolded. We also generated a grand total of ONE shot on goal the final 13 minutes of the game. Other than that we were superb!

In your opinion. Even though we already have before, even though we haven't seen this team healthy. People like you can call doomsday all day blindly but in reality you have no idea who might win, no one ever does. There is such close parity in the league by design you have to be happy with what the penguins have accomplished this era.

 

[TheGoldenJet]

Spaling is in over his head with our Top 6. He may have been able to do in Nashville, but he is not a player than can work effectively with Sid or Geno. Last night, Spaling handicapped Geno and Bennett. It was essentially 4.5 vs 5. Comeau or Hornqvist back can not happen soon enough.

Here's the thing with BB we all need to keep in mind, BB is not a point collector like Sid and Geno...or even Kunitz or Horny. He's a .33 to .5 PPG player. He just does not rack them up. He plays well...anyone can see that. He's been dynamite this year with Sutter and Geno...but the truth is it doesn't always transfer to consistent production. I haven't figured out yet if this is a long term issue or not.

As great as he has been with Geno these last couple of games...he was also at his best with Downie and Sutter. When Sid and Geno has decent line mates, Bennett with Sutter thrived against other teams non defensive lines. So...I'm just not sure what I'd do yet come playoff time. Kunitz looks decent enough with Sid and Perron...I'd hope he takes it to the next level in the playoffs...Comeau played well with Sid and Hornqvist is gonna play well with anyone.

Kunitz-Crosby-Perron
Comeau-Malkin-Hornqvist
Downie-Sutter-Bennett
Spaling-Goc-Arco

Just gotta hope that Kunitz and Comeau bring it.

Good post, and barring a big trade I agree with your lines.

Plan B for me would be to swap Kunitz and Bennett, if BB and Sid look decent enough together in a few RS games.

 

[Joejosh999]

Kunitz can't be top 6.

 

[vodeni]

Good post, and barring a big trade I agree with your lines.

Plan B for me would be to swap Kunitz and Bennett, if BB and Sid look decent enough together in a few RS games.

hat
any combination that has kunitz on top two lines is wrong...

 

[Michael8771*]

In your opinion. Even though we already have before, even though we haven't seen this team healthy. People like you can call doomsday all day blindly but in reality you have no idea who might win, no one ever does. There is such close parity in the league by design you have to be happy with what the penguins have accomplished this era

Uh, no I don't. I understand there is parity and it's not as much a league of the haves and have nots, well, save EDM. But when you have the superior high end talent, you should (in theory anyhow) have SOME advantage.

Our choices in personnel on the 4th line, and our unwillingness to make better decisions with the puck render any advantage we may have as meaningless. It's very frustrating. We're out coached, we're being out executed and we lack good solid fundamentals.

One other thing, Islanders fans are really enjoying this. ''WHEN you find your servant is your master''. They're having a good ole time. They're laughing at the Pens.

 

[KIRK]

BB gave Malkin 3-4 beautiful chances last night. He also had a great play on the goalline to quickly turn the puck over and get it on net, and then Spaling blew a great chance in front on the post. BB has been giving Malkin chances likes he's never had (that he hasn't created on his own) since he became a Pen and hasn't been with Crosby.

If MJ breaks them up, he's a complete tool and I'll have to start questioning what he is seeing out there.

Kunitz isn't getting traded. He can help in the right spot, which is the bottom six.

Well let's see how much they believe in analytics.

Pretty sure Malkin and Bennett both have been over 50% every game they've been together.

Last night, they were almost 70% corsi. 70% against the Islanders.

Spaling, a guy known before coming to Pittsburgh as a possession black hole, was over 60%.

Compare that to the Pens 'dominant' top line (which only scored an ES goal with Malkin on it, but I digress only to take that shot squarely at Kunitz and Kunitz alone) and it's corsi for in the 30% range. And, I'm not even going to mention the brilliance from the third line last night, except to sale they looked worse in terms of possession than the fourth line.

Teams like the Isles and the Rangers come at you in waves playing possession hockey, and the Malkin-Bennett duo threw that in the Isles face so badly that Capuano stopped chasing a matchup with the Tavares line when he noticed how much they were in the Isles zone.

Two further things on this for the critics of the duo:

1. The line didn't score. Sucks. BUT, it happens in hockey to everyone, no matter how well a line plays in a game. If the Malkin-Bennett combo play the next whatever games like the last 4, the Pens are going to get a Conn Smythe caliber game from Malkin.

2. For those criticizing the turnovers from this line, here's something to consider: When you've got corsi numbers near 70%, that means you've got the puck a lot more. If you've got the puck a lot more, like 2X as much as your first line, there are going to be more turnovers. No way to avoid that.

You're right, Jiggy. Malkin is getting chances right now like he's never had. He's getting the puck with time and space like he never has. Honestly, the only 2 times I ever thought Malkin played with a linemate who helped him get to HIS game (the give and go's, getting him the puck, knowing when to support and when to step away, etc) was when he played with Malone and then Talbot in the 2009 playoffs.

Yep, if MJ breaks up Malkin and Bennett, then he's a tool. Those two were the only two who managed to play MJ style possession hockey against the Isles. Problem is, I'm not sure that he isn't a tool . . . at least when it comes to Sutter.

 

[Fordy]

Tangradi>Megna>Dupuis




Did you notice that there were no looks on the net during that entire sequence? If style points counted for anything, Nikita Filatov would be an all-star, not a washout.

wow this is easy, just address nothing anyone says and you can pretend like you're always right about everything

did you read the paragraph you quoted? coulda swore i said something about the lack of shots. sounds like they need to shoot more. doesn't sound like a problem with the combo as much as you keep restating it

 

[Beau Knows]

I don't feel like Malkin, in particular, has been as easily upset.

Yup, he has made huge strides in that this season, even when he has been upset he was sticking up for his teammates. Makes me wonder if Neal's attitude was somewhat infectious.

 

[Beau Knows]

Uh, no I don't. I understand there is parity and it's not as much a league of the haves and have nots, well, save EDM. But when you have the superior high end talent, you should (in theory anyhow) have SOME advantage.

Agreed, with having both Malkin and Crosby you really have to win at least 2 Cups. Having that kind of fortune and not getting the most out of it is inexcusable.

 

[KIRK]

Can't agree about Spaling. Sure, he doesn't finish enough to be there in the long term, but he pulled his weight last night. He was the only guy on the line consistently going to threatening places unless Letang activated (things did really open up when 58 jumped in to the play with them).

When you've got one wing--and only one--at the inside of the ice, it's very easy to angle 71 to the outside. You might get a lot of zone time and corsi events, but not from places they're theoretically going to become goals.

Maybe I'm crazy and I'll give it until Comeau or Hornqvist comes back to really start taking issue, but I don't like the dynamic Bennett brings to this line at all, even when he's not absolute garbage like last night.

I'd compare what they're doing to a starting QB and the backup QB standing behind the line of scrimmage and tossing a bunch of laterals to each other without ever throwing the ball forward. Sure, it looks pretty, but you'll never get a first down unless the starting QB says screw it and starts running, which wouldn't require all these laterals in the first place. Seems to me sitting the backup QB and plugging in a wide receiver who just runs a route and tries to catch the ball will give you more yardage.

If the Malkin line's keeping Tavares pinned in and the Tavares line is keeping Malkin's line to the outside, that's a loss for us. JT's an awesome player, but he's not as dangerous as 71 can be.

But hey, maybe it's just my imagination because nobody in Pittsburgh media seems to notice this.

Agree more often than not, but . . .

1. I saw a relatively high number of prime chances. You've got to remember the difference in terms of how Malkin and Crosby attack. Sid is quick strike. Leaving out the lines one goal (with Malkin on the LW), when they got their chances, it wasn't from possession but from attacking. It's why they had chances but the corsi numbers were low. Malkin is more of a prober or a predator. As such, lots of possession, and with that comes time on the outside waiting to pounce. My point is the line had every bit of the number of opportunities as the Pens top line. So, quantity of opportunities seemed to me to be similar. Prime opportunities per minute of possession is a different story. Look, I'm a fan of possession hockey. I'll take the possession and time to the outside as long as you're getting prime chances, and the Malkin line most assuredly was. That's how you're going to beat the Isles, if all of your lines are doing that.

2. I could not disagree more about Bennett's impact on Malkin's game or the applicability of your analogy.

3. If the Malkin line and Tavares line AT WORST fight to a draw at ES (and, in this game, it wasn't a draw as much as the Tavares line survived a number of glorious chances generated by the Malkin line) and the Pens win the special teams for the night, then shouldn't that be the formula for a Pens win on a team with Crosby? That's the whole point. Look at 2009. Crosby and Ovechkin played to a draw. Malkin tilted the balance. 2 superstars > 1 superstar. Or, am I missing something?

 

[KIRK]

Thanks for the rundown KIRK. Encouraging to hear Sid, Geno and Letang all played well, if little else.

Like Tocchet said post-game, and like we all know, there are too many passengers on this team. The big question is whether the staff has the guts to do anything about the ones who are dug in like an Alabama tick.

This is for everyone...how did Arcobello look?



Yep.

Didn't hurt us, corsi near 50%, which ranked 4th on the team by about 10%.

 

[Speaking Moistly]

Yup, he has made huge strides in that this season, even when he has been upset he was sticking up for his teammates. Makes me wonder if Neal's attitude was somewhat infectious.

I think it was, but not in the blame Neal for it all way, they fed off each other and I doubt the coaching staff helped.

 

[KIRK]

Ya, BB is feeding Malkin the puck and giving him some great looks on the net. They are also dominating down low and getting guys to the net. BB did a hell of a job screening the goalie on the goal agt Boston, I believe. I have no idea what other people are seeing with that line. They aren't going to score every night.

For all the talk of Perron and Crosby, they have only directly connected on one goal, Perron's first (at least that I can recall). I don't think they have great chemistry yet either. BB and Malkin are giving each other better opportunities than Crosby and Perron, right now. However, Crosby and Hossa, again, took quite awhile to start clicking. The key is to keep them together and let the chemistry grow. The more they are together, the more they can make situational reads, and they will become more dangerous.

1. For as much as Spaling has hurt Malkin-Bennett at times, he still works. It pales in comparison to what Kunitz has done to Sid-Perron. Want to see that latter duo take off. Move Perron to LW and Horny to that RW once he returns.

2. Reading some of these comments, I don't get it. I have been a HUGE Beau critic. Loved the talent, but didn't trust his health enough to even consider slotting him at L2. Right now, I'm 100% aboard 'the find a LW, slot Comeau into the bottom six, and make him next man up if something happens to Beau' train.

3. I'm not sure how many more points Beau will score playing with Malkin versus Sutter, but I know that Malkin will score more and have a far greater chance to score more with Beau on his RW than anyone else on this roster. The Pens are NOT going to beat a team like the Isles, Rangers, or Caps in the playoffs trying to have more 'balance' than them. They're going to beat those teams by taking their possession games and shoving them right back down their throats. Horny in, Kunitz out will empower the Sid-Perron combo to do it. Beau empowers Geno to do it.

4. To the bolded part, a big amen. Compare last night to any other Isles game where Geno doesn't score or even when he scores but, like the Pens top line last night, is a MINUS at ES. Maybe some flashes, but that's it. You saw it last night. Capuano WANTED Tavares out against Malkin. Took him 2 periods to see that Malkin with Beau was NOT the Malkin he's seen over the last few years. When he got away from that matchup, the ice really tilted in the Isles favor.

5. Again, I'm not even saying Beau was GREAT. The Boston game was GREAT. Thing is, when you've got corsi numbers near 70%, you're going to turn the puck over at some point and even likely more than guys with corsi numbers at half that (i.e., everyone but your linemates and Arcebello).

 

[Michael8771*]

Agreed, with having both Malkin and Crosby you really have to win at least 2 Cups. Having that kind of fortune and not getting the most out of it is inexcusable.

Exactly! We start with having two of the top players in hockey and are squandering their primes with terrible schemes, coaching and (questionable) personnel decisions.

 

[KIRK]

In 95-96, LFJ all put up over 100 points and Jagr and Lemieux both potted 60 goals. This was when the league was starting to mimic the Devils and you could see the dead puck era sadly begin, with many teams sitting back on their heels, especially the Panthers.

Giroux and Voracek are lighting things up and Giroux is a lot like BB in the way he plays. He isn't a guy with blinding speed or one who dips his shoulder and takes it to the net.

I think we all need to relax. BB hasn't even played a dozen games in his career in the top six yet. He's playing with one of the two best pivots in the world and is giving him great looks at the net already. Their line is creating problems almost every shift, that's all I look for.

I don't worry about if one guy is a shooter, and one is a puck retriever, and one a passer and all of this nonsense. On one shift, Malkin can be the puck retriever, or the setup man, or the trigger. BB as well.

That's what makes them hard to defend, because both are as likely to get the puck, hold it, and make a play, as they are to find a gap and get off a shot, especially Malkin. However, BB shot is no joke either, and he's a smart player that will get better and better in this role when he has more than say, a dozen games there.

I want to see how this duo looks over the next 3 games.

-- Malkin usually gets chances but doesn't dominate against Boston the way he did with BB.

-- Same with Montreal.

-- Toss the Minny game.

-- Against the Isles, even when he scores, on balance, Malkin has been eh against the Isles. His 'good' games are like Sid's last night. He'll get points but be a MINUS at ES.

Next three are against the Rangers, Flyers, and Hawks.

-- Malkin usually does o'k against the Rangers, but this is a possession Rangers team. Let's see if he outdoes that with Beau.

-- There are no words to describe how awful Malkin traditionally looks against the Flyers, even in the KMN days and no matter how badly the Flyers are playing. Let's see how Beau changes things.

-- As for Chicago, anytime I see Malkin play them, it feels like he's got corsi numbers around 25%. Again, we'll see.

Seems like there really are two camps here:

One camp says 'all that possession, you've got to score more or you're wasting Malkin', because you're somehow wasting Malkin and Bennett otherwise if 'all' the team accomplishes is to generate a good amount of glorious chances and keep the Isles top line from doing squat for two periods.

Me, I say 'that's how Malkin attacks'. He's a possession player. What he's doing now with BB is Mike Johnston hockey. Possess the puck. Limit the other team's chances against. Create chances for. At worst, you're going to play to a draw.

I mean, holy **** Jiggy. If I tell you (a) Malkin and Tavares will play to a draw on the scoreboard with the ice decidedly tilted in Malkin's favor and (b) the Pens will win the special teams battle against the Isles, then how can you NOT like the Pens chances against the Isles?

And, again, I wasn't even one of those drum beaters for BB in the top six, but it's like some people here prefer how the Crosby line played in the third against the Tavares line to what happened in the first two periods when Capuano was looking for a different matchup.