Post-Game Talk: Isles 6, Pens 3

[Sideline]

I'm not worried about BB and Malkin producing. I'm just worried about them being split up if they don't produce the kind of insta numbers it will take to keep them together when Comeau and Hornqvist are back early next month.

From what I've seen I'd like to run

Perron-Crosby-Hornqvist
Comeau-Malkin-Bennett
Kunitz-Sutter-Downie
Spaling-Goc-WeAllKnowIt'sAdamsButShouldBeRust

I like Perron better on his off wing; he's willing to fire a one timer and he has the skill to keep guys honest cutting to the middle once in a while. I think working the forecheck with a psychopath like Downie might light a bit of a fire under Kunitz's ass.

The fourth line could actually be really pesky if the put Rust in there. Even with Quicksand Craig it would be responsible enough to play 6-10 minutes a night.

 

[KIRK]

From what I've seen I'd like to run

Perron-Crosby-Hornqvist
Comeau-Malkin-Bennett
Kunitz-Sutter-Downie
Spaling-Goc-WeAllKnowIt'sAdamsButShouldBeRust

I like Perron better on his off wing; he's willing to fire a one timer and he has the skill to keep guys honest cutting to the middle once in a while. I think working the forecheck with a psychopath like Downie might light a bit of a fire under Kunitz's ass.

The fourth line could actually be really pesky if the put Rust in there. Even with Quicksand Craig it would be responsible enough to play 6-10 minutes a night.

IF JR stands pat, then this is what you suggest is what the forward lines SHOULD be.

IF JR makes a move to add a forward, then IMO you slide that forward to L2 LW, Comeau to L3 RW, and Downie to L4 RW (I was thinking Downie stays with Sutter, but I'd prefer a steadier hand like Comeau there when Kunitz dogs it).

Here's what they will be . . .

Kunitz-Crosby-Perron
Comeau-Malkin-Hornqvist
Downie-Sutter-Bennett
Spaling-Goc-ItWillBeAdamsPeriod

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

Yep.

Problem is, look at this stretch. Not easy to accrue points, especially when your coach would rather play Sutter.

Minny was a cupcake, but Malkin never tilts the ice against Boston, Montreal, or Isles like he's done with Beau.

3 goals, 4 assists, and otherwise an absolute holy terror playing playoff style 2 way hockey.

As I said, Rangers, Philly, Chicago.

Against the Rangers traditionally, a good game has Malkin as a possession draw who picks up a point or two.

Against the Flyers, he's a train wreck.

Against Chicago, he may as well not skate, that's how little he possesses the puck.

Let's see how Beau changes that.

Scooter is allowed to water ski on Malkin all night, thats why Philly is a brutal match up for him.

Malkin, like any great player, doesn't need the puck on his stick long to be effective. People don't get that, and I have no clue why.

It's the same two myths I read on here over and over and it makes me roll my eyes:

- Crosby needs fast, straight line guys
- Malkin has to carry the puck for his line

I just roll my eyes all sorts of crazy. Really, really do...

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

From what I've seen I'd like to run

Perron-Crosby-Hornqvist
Comeau-Malkin-Bennett
Kunitz-Sutter-Downie
Spaling-Goc-WeAllKnowIt'sAdamsButShouldBeRust

I like Perron better on his off wing; he's willing to fire a one timer and he has the skill to keep guys honest cutting to the middle once in a while. I think working the forecheck with a psychopath like Downie might light a bit of a fire under Kunitz's ass.

The fourth line could actually be really pesky if the put Rust in there. Even with Quicksand Craig it would be responsible enough to play 6-10 minutes a night.

Perron should be on LW. Much easier to one time pucks as you said, but it's easier to toe drag the puck and hold guys off with your inside arm and drive the net on your off wing.

 

[KIRK]

Scooter is allowed to water ski on Malkin all night, that why Philly is a brutal match up for him.

Malkin, like any great player, doesn't need the puck on his stick long to be effective. People don't get that, and I have no clue why.

It's the same two myths I read on here over and over and it makes me roll my eyes:

- Crosby needs fast, straight line guys
- Malkin has to carry the puck for his line

I just roll my eyes. Really, really do...

See, here's the thing with Philly: Scooter water skis on him all night, yes. BUT, in the event that Malkin gets by that with the puck, it's usually towards a board where one of Philly's immobile big defenseman starts a gang ****.

And, they do this because they KNOW nobody is going to support Malkin on the puck or otherwise make a play if they get it.

ONE GAME in 3 years is all I've ever seen where Scooter had fits with Malkin. It was one game where Beau was on Geno's LW with Malkin and Neal (that 5 period experiment that was working until Geno got hurt, and by then Bylsma had Morrow and eventually Iginla to prevent him from having to burden Geno again with a winger who can make a play).

Yeah, you're right. A lot of people here think to be effective with Malkin, you get him the puck and let him do his thing and then the line will score a goal. Doesn't work that way. Here's the key to being a successful player with Malkin:

1. Have the ability to work a give and go.

2. Know how to get a trailing Malkin (who swoops back on the breakout) the puck where he gets it with speed and space in the neutral zone.

3. Know when to support when he's got the puck and when to give him space (and have the smarts to follow what's going on as he moves with the puck in the offensive zone).

4. Have the ability to make a play when he gets you the puck with time and space.

A guy like Neal, bless him, helped Malkin accrue assists.

The only guys I've ever seen help Malkin get to his game for more than a few periods in a game are (a) Malone, (b) Talbot in 2009, (c) Kulemin, and (d) now Beau.

And, yeah, you may not say it, but we both know it: MJ is going to **** it up.

Perron should be on LW. Much easier to one time pucks as you said, but it's easier to toe drag the puck and hold guys off with your inside arm and drive the net on your off wing.

He should be, but rest assured that Perron at RW is part of the Beau back to oblivion with Sutter scenario.

 

[NewAgeOutlaw]

Can we at least wait until BB is actually put back on Sutter's wing before we complain about it? Jesus folks.

 

[KIRK]

Can we at least wait until BB is actually put back on Sutter's wing before we complain about it? Jesus folks.

I've lost count of how many times I've heard this in the last few years and, unfortunately, including this season.

EDIT: And, unfortunately, for all of the things the coach has said in the last two weeks, I must have missed the praise for the Malkin-Bennett combo that is 1/10th as effusive as he's been about how Perron helps Sid. Did I miss it?

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

Can we at least wait until BB is actually put back on Sutter's wing before we complain about it? Jesus folks.

MJ has said he wants three scoring lines and really likes Sutter with BB. So it's a legit worry.

 

[Michael8771*]

Can we at least wait until BB is actually put back on Sutter's wing before we complain about it? Jesus folks.

Ultimately I see BB going back to Sutter. I however am not as against it as others. It's fairly apparent that Sutter cannot create much on his own. Bennett would undoubtedly be the catalyst for that line.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

Perron should be on LW. Much easier to one time pucks as you said, but it's easier to toe drag the puck and hold guys off with your inside arm and drive the net on your off wing.

Only way Perron plays LW is if he's removed from Crosby's line. Because this organization seems to insist in keeping Kunitz on Crosby's LW, even though he's looked his best this year as the 3L LW.

Heaven forbid they actually put words to action and do something about this accountability and passengers that the coaching staff is always talking about.

 

[NewAgeOutlaw]

I've lost count of how many times I've heard this in the last few years and, unfortunately, including this season.

EDIT: And, unfortunately, for all of the things the coach has said in the last two weeks, I must have missed the praise for the Malkin-Bennett combo that is 1/10th as effusive as he's been about how Perron helps Sid. Did I miss it?

MJ has said he wants three scoring lines and really likes Sutter with BB. So it's a legit worry.

I'm not saying it won't happen, all I'm saying is maybe we should wait for that to actually happen before we crucify MJ for it. It's kind of ridiculous.

I don't get why people assume MJ is dead set on Bennett with Sutter anyway. Yes, he said he liked their chemistry in the past. Look at his actions, not his words. Bennett comes back from injury, for 5 or so games MJ runs Malkin with Spaling and Downie while Bennett is on the 3rd line. As Bennett gets back in game shape his minutes increase and he is promoted over Downie to the 2nd line where he has remained since.

It's hard to explain that while keeping the narrative that MJ views BB and Sutter as inseperable alive.

I'm disappointed in you Kirk. You spend a paragraph talking about what Johnston has been talking about in the press as if that means something. Just because he hasn't directly praised BB with Malkin doesn't mean that he is not impressed with the line. Hell, I seem to recall MJ giving high praise to Farnham in the press, next game the guy is a healthy scratch for Ebbett. I put 0 srock in anything a coach says to the press.

 

[ProgOg]

I think there is definitely a chance he'll try Sutter with Bennett again, but it does seem very early to complain now.

 

[billybudd]

Agree more often than not, but . . .

1. I saw a relatively high number of prime chances. You've got to remember the difference in terms of how Malkin and Crosby attack. Sid is quick strike. Leaving out the lines one goal (with Malkin on the LW), when they got their chances, it wasn't from possession but from attacking. It's why they had chances but the corsi numbers were low. Malkin is more of a prober or a predator. As such, lots of possession, and with that comes time on the outside waiting to pounce. My point is the line had every bit of the number of opportunities as the Pens top line. So, quantity of opportunities seemed to me to be similar. Prime opportunities per minute of possession is a different story. Look, I'm a fan of possession hockey. I'll take the possession and time to the outside as long as you're getting prime chances, and the Malkin line most assuredly was. That's how you're going to beat the Isles, if all of your lines are doing that.

2. I could not disagree more about Bennett's impact on Malkin's game or the applicability of your analogy.

Malkin takes what's available. If what's available is the center of the ice, he takes that. If what's available is the outside, he takes the outside (to his detriment).

With Spaling as the only guy ever not glued to the boards (minus Letang), the outside will be what's open. If Bennett rotated in the slot more than he does, fine. If Bennett was a ranged threat, fine. But he doesn't and he isn't. So it's just circles around the perimeter unless Letang decides to play fourth forward.

But like I said, maybe I'm wrong. I'll be letting it go until Comeau or Hornqvist comes back, but I expect the production will never be there with those two together. Little overlap between where they're going and where goals are scored from.

3. If the Malkin line and Tavares line AT WORST fight to a draw at ES (and, in this game, it wasn't a draw as much as the Tavares line survived a number of glorious chances generated by the Malkin line) and the Pens win the special teams for the night, then shouldn't that be the formula for a Pens win on a team with Crosby? That's the whole point. Look at 2009. Crosby and Ovechkin played to a draw. Malkin tilted the balance. 2 superstars > 1 superstar. Or, am I missing something?

Stalemating Tavares doesn't matter to the Isles any more. He was getting blanked a lot at the beginning of the season and it didn't make a bit of difference.

They're too deep now. If you sacrifice Geno's production to blank JT, the other three lines combines will outscore Crosby's more often than not. That is one deep, deep team.

 

[KIRK]

I'm not saying it won't happen, all I'm saying is maybe we should wait for that to actually happen before we crucify MJ for it. It's kind of ridiculous.

I don't get why people assume MJ is dead set on Bennett with Sutter anyway. Yes, he said he liked their chemistry in the past. Look at his actions, not his words. Bennett comes back from injury, for 5 or so games MJ runs Malkin with Spaling and Downie while Bennett is on the 3rd line. As Bennett gets back in game shape his minutes increase and he is promoted over Downie to the 2nd line where he has remained since.

It's hard to explain that while keeping the narrative that MJ views BB and Sutter as inseperable alive.

I'm disappointed in you Kirk. You spend a paragraph talking about what Johnston has been talking about in the press as if that means something. Just because he hasn't directly praised BB with Malkin doesn't mean that he is not impressed with the line. Hell, I seem to recall MJ giving high praise to Farnham in the press, next game the guy is a healthy scratch for Ebbett. I put 0 srock in anything a coach says to the press.

Tell you what: I will be delighted to be 100% wrong on this one.

 

[KIRK]

Malkin takes what's available. If what's available is the center of the ice, he takes that. If what's available is the outside, he takes the outside (to his detriment).

With Spaling as the only guy ever not glued to the boards (minus Letang), the outside will be what's open. If Bennett rotated in the slot more than he does, fine. If Bennett was a ranged threat, fine. But he doesn't and he isn't. So it's just circles around the perimeter unless Letang decides to play fourth forward.

But like I said, maybe I'm wrong. I'll be letting it go until Comeau or Hornqvist comes back, but I expect the production will never be there with those two together. Little overlap between where they're going and where goals are scored from.




Stalemating Tavares doesn't matter to the Isles any more. He was getting blanked a lot at the beginning of the season and it didn't make a bit of difference.

They're too deep now. If you sacrifice Geno's production to blank JT, the other three lines combines will outscore Crosby's more often than not. That is one deep, deep team.

1. I think you're seeing a different game. The fact that Capuano ran from the Tavares on Malkin lineup after two periods tells me that, as does the fact that a few posters like Jiggy are equally adamant on this point.

2. Malkin necessarily is going to spend more time on the outside, just as there necessarily will be more turnovers, when he and Bennett have Corsi numbers over 65%. It seems like you'd have been content if Malkin and Bennett had put in an ES goal off some breakdown and been a -1 with Corsi numbers half of what he had, because that's what the Pens top line was ES last night and what Malkin has been in other games lately against the Isles. Sorry, I'm not seeing what you're seeing. Or, put another way, I'm seeing some of what you're seeing but deriving a different message. I'll take my chances with Malkin having the puck more, and Bennett is the catalyst to that.

3. Again, I think you're ignoring the differences between how Malkin and Crosby attack. Crosby attacks fast. Malkin likes to probe and use possession to draw defenders out of coverage and press when it creates a breakdown (and 'reset' when it doesn't, which is why a guy like Beau is huge, because he allows that 'reset' like a Talbot did in 2009 or Malone did the year before).

4. You mistake my meaning on the Malkin-Tavares draw point. My point was that with Corsi numbers like that, the worst thing that could have happened is a draw. And, you know what, it happens on a given night. Malkin isn't going to score every night, no matter how good the possession or how much he does right (or, does that only apply to some centers on this team). But, if THIS is what a Malkin-Bennett combo will give us over a 7 game series against a team like the Isles, then the Pens are going to be in a good place.

5. Perhaps the Pens should break up the Crosby-Perron combo. In 4 games the Malkin-Bennett combo has been together, it's been 3 ES goals for the line with monster Corsi numbers. The Sid-Perron combo? 3 ES goals, but 1 was with Malkin on the wing and the other 2 were against Minny. If the standard is production and not possession or eye tests or what the other team's coach is telling you by how he chases matchups, then the Crosby-Perron combo should be broken up before the Malkin-Bennett combo, and I don't think anyone would argue that.

 

[NewAgeOutlaw]

Tell you what: I will be delighted to be 100% wrong on this one.

I will be happy if you are wrong too. If you aren't wrong I will be going to get my torch and pitchfork like everybody else but I'm gonna wait for it to actually happen before I do.

 

[KIRK]

I will be happy if you are wrong too. If you aren't wrong I will be going to get my torch and pitchfork like everybody else but I'm gonna wait for it to actually happen before I do.

So you're just a little perturbed then that, after 5 years of being disappointed by this organization, I've already got my my supply of kerosene?

You know what's funny? I've been one of the big 'leave Beau with Sutter, Comeau is fine' guys. But, with all the injuries, when MJ put Bennett out there going into the BOS game, I said 'no harm and maybe Bennett is just such a revelation with Malkin that the plan becomes Bennett as L2 RW and Comeau to the bottom six/next man up if Beau gets hurt'. Well, Beau has been that good. Not perfect, but as he and Malkin work through it (and with the limitations presented by having Spaling on the LW), I saw right away one important thing:

BEAU BENNETT HELPS EVGENI MALKIN GET TO HIS GAME IN A WAY I'VE ONLY SEEN MALONE, TALBOT, AND KULEMIN DO IT FOR MORE THAN A FEW PERIODS.

Perron does the same for Sid. And, you know what? The Pens aren't going to win a cup-- aren't even going to have a genuine chance to win a cup-- unless Sid and Geno are playing their games. Not if they have Paul Martin or not. Not if they get an extra goal from Brandon Sutter. Only if Sid and Geno are playing their games.

 

[Gold Diamond]

I'm at peace with this game. Humble pie tastes like ****. Better beat the rags.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

Only way Perron plays LW is if he's removed from Crosby's line. Because this organization seems to insist in keeping Kunitz on Crosby's LW, even though he's looked his best this year as the 3L LW.

Heaven forbid they actually put words to action and do something about this accountability and passengers that the coaching staff is always talking about.

Kunitz can still play, but he is struggling agt the tougher match ups Crosby has to face.

It's sad, but I suspect Kunitz of all people will push BB out of the top six.

 

[Richard]

The problem is and what it always was; a lack of complimentary skill in the top six. Who do we have, other than Crosby and Malkin, who is in their prime as an NHL skilled forward?

No one.

Unless that is fixed thins will remain as so.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

I'm not saying it won't happen, all I'm saying is maybe we should wait for that to actually happen before we crucify MJ for it. It's kind of ridiculous.

I don't get why people assume MJ is dead set on Bennett with Sutter anyway. Yes, he said he liked their chemistry in the past. Look at his actions, not his words. Bennett comes back from injury, for 5 or so games MJ runs Malkin with Spaling and Downie while Bennett is on the 3rd line. As Bennett gets back in game shape his minutes increase and he is promoted over Downie to the 2nd line where he has remained since.

It's hard to explain that while keeping the narrative that MJ views BB and Sutter as inseperable alive.

I'm disappointed in you Kirk. You spend a paragraph talking about what Johnston has been talking about in the press as if that means something. Just because he hasn't directly praised BB with Malkin doesn't mean that he is not impressed with the line. Hell, I seem to recall MJ giving high praise to Farnham in the press, next game the guy is a healthy scratch for Ebbett. I put 0 srock in anything a coach says to the press.

Well, BB got promoted because Comeau and Hornqvist got hurt and Sutter in the top six never seems to work out. MJ has made no secret he likes BB and Sutter together and reading quotes like this doesn't help:

The Penguins hope by mid-February they'll have a healthy lineup featuring Patric Hornqvist and Blake Comeau, who are out and not due back until after the 2015 NHL All-Star Weekend, which ends Jan. 26. At that point the goal is to have Hornqvist and Comeau play with Malkin, and have Bennett compete for third-line minutes with Downie to play alongside Sutter and Spaling.

http://www.nhl.com/ice/news.htm?id=749157&navid=nhl:topheads

BB even alludes to the fact that he is only in the top six because of injuries, in his interview that was posted on this board the other day.

I think it's foolish to assume BB is a fixture in the top six right now when the team is fully healthy. A guy like Rust clearly out performed Sill and look who is in the minors right now.

There has been nothing to suggest MJ isn't a vet first guy either.

 

[ProgOg]

Well, BB got promoted because Comeau and Hornqvist got hurt and Sutter in the top six never seems to work out. MJ has made no secret he likes BB and Sutter together and reading quotes like this doesn't help:



http://www.nhl.com/ice/news.htm?id=749157&navid=nhl:topheads

BB even alludes to the fact that he is only in the top six because of injuries, in his interview that was posted on this board the other day.

I think it's follish to assume BB is a fixture in the top six right now when the team is fully healthy. A guy like Rust clearly out performed Sill and look who is in the minors right now.

As I said in the Media thread I do wonder where/when that info comes from. Same for the second part of the quote:

Bennett can elevate himself on Rutherford's planned depth chart with continued solid play as a wing on Malkin's line. He is finally getting a chance to play top-six minutes for the Penguins; now he has to stay healthy and prove he can do it over a number of games.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

As I said in the Media thread I do wonder where/when that info comes from. Same for the second part of the quote:

No idea, but someone inside the org obviously told Rosen that was the plan, or a long time esteemed writer just decided to make things up.

So unless Rosen decided to make things up, the concern about BB being moved back to the third line is pretty legit. Obviously we have to wait and see, but to act as if it isn't a very real possibility is being pretty naive.

 

[ProgOg]

No idea, but someone inside the org obviously told Rosen that was the plan, or a long time esteemed writer just decided to make things up.

So unless Rosen decided to make things up, the concern about BB being moved back to the third line is pretty legit. Obviously we have to wait and see, but to act as if it isn't a very real possibility is being pretty naive.

Yeah, I agree.

 

[mpp9]

I"ll keep an open mind, but I think I hate Kunitz with Sid even more than the idea of BB getting moved away from Malkin.

If BB is with Sutter, we still only have two legit top 6 guys in Perron and PH. And only one of them can create his own offense.