Is Tomas Plekanec underated?

[Kriss E]

lol fair enough...

I don't want to get into a semantics debate here, but I don't think it's unreasonable to say that he's overrated around here.

How is he overrated by the gen.pop. here exactly? What are people saying that isn't quite true?

 

[417]

I don't think anybody fears playing any of our players. That's not an argument.

Not sure I agree with that...

I think teams/coaches fear PK Subban on the PP...
I think teams/coaches fear Max Pacioretty's goal scoring ability...

I don't think teams gameplan around Tomas Plekanec...

But that's just me..might be wrong

 

[Joe Cole]

I like Plekanec, he can do it all. Shoot, score, slate, defend... the one thing I find he is not great at is distributing the puck.

Plekanec's skill set is in stark contrast with Desharnais (who is only a passer).

 

[417]

How is he overrated by the gen.pop. here exactly? What are people saying that isn't quite true?

That he's one of the best 2 way players in the NHL
That the Habs can't afford to trade him because the other centers on the team couldn't pick up the slack

I could go on and on here...lots of things have been said about Plekanec that I don't agree with.

And again...the term 'overrated' just means that I THINK Habs fans rate him too highly

It does not mean that I think he's useless

 

[Jigger77]

I keep reading Plekanec is an underated player, I really don't get that. Let's look at his 13-14 playoffs stats.

There's your problem right there. Find me stats that tell how a player always makes the right play, a safe dump in, maintaining puck possession on the PK, allowing your team to maintain puck possession in general.

Also, ask Sidney Crosby if he thinks Plecky is overrated.

Edit: which reminds me, also find me stats that measure how much you frustrate arguably the best center in the world and keep him pointless in the process.


Plekanec on getting Crosby off his game: "That's his weakness. Everybody knows that. When you get him to play that way... When (Crosby) is running around, slashing guys, crosschecking guys, jumping guys from behind, you know he's off his game."

Pleky on treash talk w/ Crosby: "I didn't say anything, he was talking all the time. I was just listening. I'm a good listener."

 

[Mr Jackpot]

What are people saying that isn't quite true?

That he plays tough minutes
That he's a selke candidate
That he's performing during the playoffs
That he's a 75 pts scorer

 

[LePoche69]

And reading his post it's as if Plekanec is nothing but an overrated average player who's easy to play against. That's pure BS.

Well, if you read my posts, you'll learn that what I think of Plekanec is:

• One of the top PKers in the league.
• Above average player facing opposite teams' scoring lines.
• Still manage a reasonnable amount of points.

I even said that he's a good thing to have on your team. But I do think he's overrated. Every team has PK specialist and you can developp one, like Plekanec was developped into one. And he doesn't offer much more intagibles to make him an untradable asset. I would personnaly prefer a player that is making the opposite team paying the price.

 

[groovejuice]

Not sure I agree with that...

I think teams/coaches fear PK Subban on the PP...
I think teams/coaches fear Max Pacioretty's goal scoring ability...

I don't think teams gameplan around Tomas Plekanec...

But that's just me..might be wrong

They likely gameplan on how to avoid him.

 

[MathMan]

But there's some things you wrote which need to be said...

He does take a lot of crucial faceoffs, but loses more than he wins.

There's a lot more to crucial faceoffs than actually winning them. It's especially being on the ice after them.

Faceoff win percentage has a surprisingly small effect on who wins a hockey game. It's one of the few common numbers that are available for a center, so it gets a lot of visibility, but it's out of proportion for its importance. There is certainly some impact, so you want to be as good as you can be, but it's ultimately pretty small.

And when you think about it it makes sense. A faceoff is ultimately just a 50-50 puck possession battle, except that both sides are set up before it happens. Even with an elite faceoff guy, you are going to lose that faceoff 40% of the time, so if you have a crucial defensive zone faceoff, it's more important that your C be able to play well after losing the faceoff than he be able to win it. (It's why a player like Konopka is kind of useless, because he can't really be out there on important faceoffs.)

This reminds me of a fascinating article written by Tyler Dellow, now unfortunately removed from the Web after he was hired, that described how the Oilers had changed their faceoff setup to win more of them... and showed how that had resulted in more goals against because, while they won more faceoffs, they were set up more poorly to deal with the aftermath. So much so that it ended up hurting more than winning more faceoffs helped.

TL;DR: winning the faceoffs isn't everything, being out there knowing what to do after the faceoff is more important.

 

[Mr Jackpot]

What are people saying that isn't quite true?

That he is an ELITE 2way center

That has BRUTAL zone assignement

That he and Patrice Bergeron are the same type of player when in fact there are the complete opposite type of players, Bergeron is strong, has caracter and is couragous after coming back from 3 concussion, Plek is soft, scared and doesn't rise when it counts.

Btw how many players in the NHL has never been injured in the last 10 years? Plek is one of the rare player that is never injured.

 

[groovejuice]

That he is an ELITE 2way center

That has BRUTAL zone assignement

That he and Patrice Bergeron are the same type of player when in fact there are the complete opposite type of players, Bergeron is strong, has caracter and is couragous after coming back from 3 concussion, Plek is soft, scared and doesn't rise when it counts.

Btw how many players in the NHL has never been injured in the last 10 years? Plek is one of the rare player that is never injured.

Patofqc, I wondered where you were....

 

[417]

There's a lot more to crucial faceoffs than actually winning them. It's especially being on the ice after them.

Faceoff win percentage has a surprisingly small effect on who wins a hockey game. It's one of the few common numbers that are available for a center, so it gets a lot of visibility, but it's out of proportion for its importance. There is certainly some impact, so you want to be as good as you can be, but it's ultimately pretty small.

And when you think about it it makes sense. A faceoff is ultimately just a 50-50 puck possession battle, except that both sides are set up before it happens. Even with an elite faceoff guy, you are going to lose that faceoff 40% of the time, so if you have a crucial defensive zone faceoff, it's more important that your C be able to play well after losing the faceoff than he be able to win it. (It's why a player like Konopka is kind of useless, because he can't really be out there on important faceoffs.)

This reminds me of a fascinating article written by Tyler Dellow, now unfortunately removed from the Web after he was hired, that described how the Oilers had changed their faceoff setup to win more of them... and showed how that had resulted in more goals against because, while they won more faceoffs, they were set up more poorly to deal with the aftermath. So much so that it ended up hurting more than winning more faceoffs helped.

TL;DR: winning the faceoffs isn't everything, being out there knowing what to do after the faceoff is more important.

Agreed...was just responding to the person who wrote that he takes a lot of crucial faceoffs.

I mean, that's great, but it's an incomplete observation...it's lacking context.

As you said...winning/losing a faceoffs is one thing. How players react after the faceoff is won/lost is another thing all together.

Not to mention that what happens after a faceoffs isn't the responsibility of a sole player, there are 5 skaters on the ice an a goalie who all play a factor in the result of a play.

 

[Mr Jackpot]

There's a lot more to crucial faceoffs than actually winning them. It's especially being on the ice after them.

Faceoff win percentage has a surprisingly small effect on who wins a hockey game. It's one of the few common numbers that are available for a center, so it gets a lot of visibility, but it's out of proportion for its importance. There is certainly some impact, so you want to be as good as you can be, but it's ultimately pretty small.

And when you think about it it makes sense. A faceoff is ultimately just a 50-50 puck possession battle, except that both sides are set up before it happens. Even with an elite faceoff guy, you are going to lose that faceoff 40% of the time, so if you have a crucial defensive zone faceoff, it's more important that your C be able to play well after losing the faceoff than he be able to win it. (It's why a player like Konopka is kind of useless, because he can't really be out there on important faceoffs.)

This reminds me of a fascinating article written by Tyler Dellow, now unfortunately removed from the Web after he was hired, that described how the Oilers had changed their faceoff setup to win more of them... and showed how that had resulted in more goals against because, while they won more faceoffs, they were set up more poorly to deal with the aftermath. So much so that it ended up hurting more than winning more faceoffs helped.

TL;DR: winning the faceoffs isn't everything, being out there knowing what to do after the faceoff is more important.

It's amazing how far they will go to defend Plek

"yes plek lose faceoff but whats more important is what he does after the face-off is lost!"

Yes he does a lot after the faceoff is lost, he finished ****ing last of his team in +/-

 

[MathMan]

It's amazing how far they will go to defend Plek

It's actually rather amazing how far you will go to bash him.

"yes plek lose faceoff but whats more important is what he does after the face-off is lost!"

That doesn't apply to just Pleks. You'd rather have a guy out who's good at defense than a guy who's good at faceoffs but bad at defense. It's better to be both, of course, but people obsess about winning faceoffs far out of proportion to their actual impact on the game.

Yes he does a lot after the faceoff is lost, he finished ****ing last of his team in +/-

Plus-minus is a flawed and extremely misleading stat, and it is especially silly to use a stat called PLUS/minus as a measure of pure defense. But in the interest of accuracy, I would like point out that Pleky was +11 last year, one off the team lead.

He was last in the playoffs but when a stat is as volatile as +/- is in the first place, that sort of thing will happen in small samples. Meaningless.

And here I go, feeding the troll. Probably shouldn't have.

 

[Mr Jackpot]

Plus-minus is a flawed and extremely misleading stat, and it is especially silly to use a stat called PLUS/minus as a measure of pure defense. But in the interest of accuracy, I would like point out that Pleky was +11 last year, one off the team lead.

He was last in the playoffs but when a stat is as volatile as +/- is in the first place, that sort of thing will happen in small samples. Meaningless.

And here I go, feeding the troll. Probably shouldn't have.

I mean you say Plek was leading with +11 during the season and then you say in the playoff it's a volatile stat... keep finding excuses everywhere you can.

 

[Adriatic]

Is it wrong that I don't even expect Plekanec to be one of our best players in the playoffs anymore? There was a time where I thought he was in tough, bad team and all...but I've come to realize he's just not made to lead during those crucial moments. Just in the short time he's been here, a player like Eller for example has shown he's ready to battle and go to war. 2 years now he's been arguably our best forward down the stretch and playoffs..and I've come to expect him to lead us much more then Plekanec. Sure he can do it for small stretches during regular season but it's too much for him in the playoffs. Thomas is like afterthought for me at this point. Dump, chase, stay with your guy, be safe, don't get caught..that's all nice and good but he's definitely not the one that will make things happen when it matters, as opposed to a Kessler or Bergeron for god's sake. He's still a very useful player but just the someone I don't expect to lead. He's a follower and won't really take things into his own hands, like a Gallagher or Eller would.

 

[Mr Jackpot]

Is it wrong that I don't even expect Plekanec to be one of our best players in the playoffs anymore? There was a time where I thought he was in tough, bad team and all...but I've come to realize he's just not made to lead during those crucial moments. Just in the short time he's been here, a player like Eller for example has shown he's ready to battle and go to war. 2 years now he's been arguably our best forward down the stretch and playoffs..and I've come to expect him to lead us much more then Plekanec. Sure he can do it for small stretches during regular season but it's too much for him in the playoffs. Thomas is like afterthought for me at this point. Dump, chase, stay with your guy, be safe, don't get caught..that's all nice and good but he's definitely not the one that will make things happen when it matters, as opposed to a Kessler or Bergeron for god's sake. He's still a very useful player but just the someone I don't expect to lead. He's a follower and won't really take things into his own hands, like a Gallagher or Eller would.

Very well said, everything you say there is accurate. This man has made some observations over the past few years and he put his observation into words.

 

[LePoche69]

After reading the last 2 pages, in which I tried to participate, I decided to quote myself from page 3, and stop posting.

All habs players are underrated and overrated at the same time.

Everytime someone note how well or bad is playing a hab, there are plenty of posters to point out the opposite. Then occur a build up effect, which transforms a "this-guy-is-a-good-passer" to "advanced-stats-shows-he's-better-than-Gretzky", or stuff like "he's-only-good-at-blocking-shots" to "he's-a-career-AHLer".

 

[WhiskeySeven*]

Is it wrong that I don't even expect Plekanec to be one of our best players in the playoffs anymore? There was a time where I thought he was in tough, bad team and all...but I've come to realize he's just not made to lead during those crucial moments. Just in the short time he's been here, a player like Eller for example has shown he's ready to battle and go to war. 2 years now he's been arguably our best forward down the stretch and playoffs..and I've come to expect him to lead us much more then Plekanec. Sure he can do it for small stretches during regular season but it's too much for him in the playoffs. Thomas is like afterthought for me at this point. Dump, chase, stay with your guy, be safe, don't get caught..that's all nice and good but he's definitely not the one that will make things happen when it matters, as opposed to a Kessler or Bergeron for god's sake. He's still a very useful player but just the someone I don't expect to lead. He's a follower and won't really take things into his own hands, like a Gallagher or Eller would.

Well there's something to be said about consistent, reliable, dependable players. He's not going to have another gear offensively, we've come to learn that, but his highest gear is good enough for any playoff team.

 

[Jakomyte]

I mean you say Plek was leading with +11 during the season and then you say in the playoff it's a volatile stat... keep finding excuses everywhere you can.

Volatile just means it is more likely to be erratic in a smaller sample size.

Regular season: 82 games
Playoffs: 17 games

Plus Minus is a pretty meaningless stat in general, but its more likely to have at least some meaning over the course of a full season compared to a smaller portion of games.

Is it wrong that I don't even expect Plekanec to be one of our best players in the playoffs anymore? There was a time where I thought he was in tough, bad team and all...but I've come to realize he's just not made to lead during those crucial moments. Just in the short time he's been here, a player like Eller for example has shown he's ready to battle and go to war. 2 years now he's been arguably our best forward down the stretch and playoffs..and I've come to expect him to lead us much more then Plekanec. Sure he can do it for small stretches during regular season but it's too much for him in the playoffs. Thomas is like afterthought for me at this point. Dump, chase, stay with your guy, be safe, don't get caught..that's all nice and good but he's definitely not the one that will make things happen when it matters, as opposed to a Kessler or Bergeron for god's sake. He's still a very useful player but just the someone I don't expect to lead. He's a follower and won't really take things into his own hands, like a Gallagher or Eller would.

Yeah, last year's series against Boston really showed that Plekanec can't keep up with a guy that 'makes things happen' like Bergeron.

I mean, Plekanec only had 1g-3a in that whole series, while Bergeron blew him away with 2g-2a. Plus, Bergeron made all those game-breaking plays that won Boston the series. Oh, wait...

 

[Sorinth]

Wow not even in the same universe as the other two.

Are we talking offensively or defensively?

Offensively since 09-10 (5 seasons) their ppg average is
Kesler 0.76
Bergeron 0.75
Plekanec 0.69

Defensively it's a lot more subjective since it's harder to measure. But it's probably safe to assume they had similar defensive roles.

So if we look at GA/60 the average over 5 years is
Bergeron 1.99
Plekanec 2.28
Kesler 2.8


I'm not sure where this not in the same universe comes from. Bergevin is the clear leader but neither has a huge gap over Plekanec.

Offensively over the last 5 years
Pleks has tied or outproduced Bergeron in 3/5 seasons
Pleks has tied or outproduced Kesler in 2/4 seasons (Did not count Kesler's injured year)

Defensively
Plekanec had a better GA/60 in 2/5 seasons compared to Bergeron
Plekanec had a better GA/60 in 3/5 seasons compared to Kesler (2/4 if we don't count Kesler's injured year)

 

[Mr Jackpot]

Is it wrong that I don't even expect Plekanec to be one of our best players in the playoffs anymore? There was a time where I thought he was in tough, bad team and all...but I've come to realize he's just not made to lead during those crucial moments. Just in the short time he's been here, a player like Eller for example has shown he's ready to battle and go to war. 2 years now he's been arguably our best forward down the stretch and playoffs..and I've come to expect him to lead us much more then Plekanec. Sure he can do it for small stretches during regular season but it's too much for him in the playoffs. Thomas is like afterthought for me at this point. Dump, chase, stay with your guy, be safe, don't get caught..that's all nice and good but he's definitely not the one that will make things happen when it matters, as opposed to a Kessler or Bergeron for god's sake. He's still a very useful player but just the someone I don't expect to lead. He's a follower and won't really take things into his own hands, like a Gallagher or Eller would.

"I've come to realize he's just not made to lead during those crucial moments."

"he's definitely not the one that will make things happen when it matters, as opposed to a Kessler or Bergeron"

"He's a follower and won't really take things into his own hands, like a Gallagher or Eller would"

Great post.

 

[Jakomyte]

"I've come to realize he's just not made to lead during those crucial moments."

"he's definitely not the one that will make things happen when it matters, as opposed to a Kessler or Bergeron"

"He's a follower and won't really take things into his own hands, like a Gallagher or Eller would"

Great post.

Not only have you quoted the same post twice just to say that you agree, but the second time you quoted it, you also decided to actually type out quotes, from the quote. I think we get it.

Also, I'm done feeding the troll...

 

[Mr Jackpot]

After reading the last 2 pages, in which I tried to participate, I decided to quote myself from page 3, and stop posting.

haha you were right, that's the direction the thread took.

 

[DAChampion]

Err, not sure if you missed it but DD's line plays against top-6 opposition, as proven by a thread posted not too long ago with statistics on who DD's line played against on every given night, against every team. I'd say it's far from "coddled".

With that said, I'd love to see Plekanec with a 35-40 goal scorer on his wing, just to get a glimpse at what he could do with that.

That thread was BS.