Why not keep Brunner and Tatar? It's not impossible. Rather have Tatar though if we had to choose. He seems more suited, so far, to play the NA style. He's been a gritty but skilled guy for a few years now and doesn't shy away from that aspect. While Brunner was getting better at it, he's still not up to Tatar's level.
Why not keep Brunner and Tatar? It's not impossible. Rather have Tatar though if we had to choose. He seems more suited, so far, to play the NA style. He's been a gritty but skilled guy for a few years now and doesn't shy away from that aspect. While Brunner was getting better at it, he's still not up to Tatar's level.
SportsballChic
Registered User
Okay, so fan dream scenario: we cut all the old guys, let Cleary walk, bring back Brunner and?
Do you want to keep Filppula in that scenario? Also, random curiosity but how do you slot the youngins? Who's on the 3rd line? Brunner or Tatar (noting that Tatar might be gone to the KHL after this year if he can't get skill line minutes)? Does that move Gustav up to the 1st line?
Not picking a fight, I'm legit curious how other people see the situation.
Mort Divine
Registered User
Flip or UFA Foward - Z - Nyquist
Tatar - Dats - Franzen
Miller - Helm - Brunner
Abby - Andersson - Bert
Tatar - Dats - Franzen
Miller - Helm - Brunner
Abby - Andersson - Bert
I'd love to keep Fil if it made financial sense and he wasn't asking too much. He was terrible last season, but I still think he's closer to the player we seen in 11-12 than he was this past season.
Dream lineup for me would be:
Zetterberg-Datsyuk-Tatar/Abdelkader
Filppula-Franzen-Tatar/Abdelkader
Brunner-Andersson-Nyquist
Miller-Helm-Eaves
Keep Pav and Z together for two reasons:
1) They were really good together at the end of last season and during the 1st round and deserve to play with great players
2) You make Franzen play center to stay engaged and skating
The 3rd line showed me enough down the stretch and postseason to want to see more before moving any of them. Nyquist is going to be a top 6 forward sooner rather than later, but I'd keep that line together to start. If you need to change things up you can switch him and Tatar or even put Filppula on line 3.
Miller-Helm-Eaves have already shown very good chemistry 2 years back and they are typical energy/grind bottom 6 line. (People shouldn't be concerned about Helm being on line 4. Lines 3 and 4 get similar even strength time and Helm would be used a lot on the PK plus when shortening the bench.)
Then if you need to switch things up and separate the two big guns while still giving them support:
Filppula/Nyquist-Datsyuk-Tatar
Nyquist/Filppula-Z-Franzen
Abdelkader-Helm-Eaves
Miller-Andersson-Brunner
Of course none of this matters since Fil seems to be gone, but a man can dream right?
Dream lineup for me would be:
Zetterberg-Datsyuk-Tatar/Abdelkader
Filppula-Franzen-Tatar/Abdelkader
Brunner-Andersson-Nyquist
Miller-Helm-Eaves
Keep Pav and Z together for two reasons:
1) They were really good together at the end of last season and during the 1st round and deserve to play with great players
2) You make Franzen play center to stay engaged and skating
The 3rd line showed me enough down the stretch and postseason to want to see more before moving any of them. Nyquist is going to be a top 6 forward sooner rather than later, but I'd keep that line together to start. If you need to change things up you can switch him and Tatar or even put Filppula on line 3.
Miller-Helm-Eaves have already shown very good chemistry 2 years back and they are typical energy/grind bottom 6 line. (People shouldn't be concerned about Helm being on line 4. Lines 3 and 4 get similar even strength time and Helm would be used a lot on the PK plus when shortening the bench.)
Then if you need to switch things up and separate the two big guns while still giving them support:
Filppula/Nyquist-Datsyuk-Tatar
Nyquist/Filppula-Z-Franzen
Abdelkader-Helm-Eaves
Miller-Andersson-Brunner
Of course none of this matters since Fil seems to be gone, but a man can dream right?
Cyborg Yzerberg
Registered User
This is what I've been personally endorsing
Z-Dats-Mule
Nyquist-Weiss-Bertuzzi
Tatar-Helm-Brunner
Miller-Andersson-Abdelkader/Eaves/Tootoo
Z-Dats-Mule
Nyquist-Weiss-Bertuzzi
Tatar-Helm-Brunner
Miller-Andersson-Abdelkader/Eaves/Tootoo
Henkka
Registered User
I have had this plan for a while now. Don't know is it Holland's plan but it could be pretty realistic plan.
Defence is set, goaltending is set.
With forwards, we extend Miller, Brunner, the RFAs and buy Sammy out.
Filppula is let walk and Cleary is let waiting, "if something happens".
Franzen - Zeta - Nyquist
Bertuzzi - Dats - Brunner
AKader - Helm - Tatar
Miller - Andersson - Eaves
(Emmerton, Tootoo)
14 guys. Holland said he will want an overcrowded roster, because it creates competition and also includes a spare part for Helm, if he can't start his season normally.
So, he will try to sign that TOP6 UFA to bolster the offence. If Holland does not get enough good UFA from the free market, he'll sign Dan Cleary as a back-up plan in August. Then we have 15 guys. We run the camp and practise games with five NHL lines/four defensive pairings + prospect lines and pairings.
At season start, we'll see the current roster situation. Are all the boys healthy? We don't know it yet. Things happen. Usually bad things, and good GM will prepare for them. "mursaks" will get injured.
If everybody is healthy, that decides the faith of Cory Emmerton. He will be waived/traded. He is not good enough center for Wings need. Curt Fraser spoiled this kid. Not fast, not good faceoffs, not big, some PK ability but Andersson already has a better toolbox.
Same goes for Lashoff at defence. He is useful if somebody will get injured before season start. He is the 8th extra guy there in hierarchy, just like Emmerton is the 15th guy in offensive hierarchy. Before the roster limit day, if everybody is healthy at defence, Lash will be traded or waived, when we go to that 14+7+2 roster mold (if everybody healthy, very unprobable usually).
IF scenarios:
We get Horton/Clarkson/Iginla:
Nyquist - Zeta - Horton/Clarkson/Iginla
Franzen - Dats - Brunner
AKader - Helm - Bertuzzi
Miller - Andersson - Tatar
(Eaves, Emmerton, Tootoo)
We trade for Weiss:
Zetterberg - Dats - Franzen
Bertuzzi - Weiss - Brunner
Abdelkader - Helm - Nyquist
Miller - Andersson - Tatar
(Eaves, Emmerton, Tootoo)
We don't get anybody and sign Cleary:
Franzen - Zeta - Nyquist
Bertuzzi - Dats - Brunner
AKader - Helm - Cleary
Miller - Andersson - Tatar
(Eaves, Emmerton, Tootoo)
Only really interesting part when letting Filppula walk is the question for who will center the 2nd power-play unit and take the PP faceoffs? We don't have another skilled center if Dats and Z are at 1st unit together. We could spelit them for 2 units, I don't believe that happen. We need that 3rd guy, if Dats or Z will get injured. That's the only thing that will be missing if Filppula is let walk. All his other intangibles except faceoff ability can be replaced by Nyquist. Helm, Emmerton or Andersson does not belong on PP. Also Mule should be the net-front guy in the 1st unit.
Maybe 2nd unit is different like usually, Mule could go to the second unit, takes faceoffs and after that to net-front role, because winger Nyquist is the playmaker. Usually the PP playmaker is the center, but Nyquist will change this situation. Bertuzzi could be the 1st PP net-front if Mule is at 2nd unit.
I'm not buying that "Abdelkader to be the next Holmström" -idea yet. He will be back at grinder/PK duties at next season, because healthy Bertuzzi or net-front -style UFA will steal his job from last season.
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I don't think Tatar walks if he doesn't get top6 minutes this first year. The third line still gets decent time and even Datsyuk started there. Plus, we could find a way to get him out on the PP. Gus better be top6, or Gus-Helm-Tatar would be fine too on the third line. They would tear other teams up.
If Flipper can be had for 4.5, I say keep him. 5? No way. We've been saying "he's gonna break out he's gonna break out!" for years and he just hasn't. He's older now, I don't expect him to make any great strides to his game. And we're not even using him as a center anymore.
I'd like to see Jurco get a shot at the third line though. He's big, fast, skilled, good shot. And he really picked it up in the playoffs for the Griffins.
Henkka
Registered User
I'm pretty sure Tatar will start from 4th line, just like Datsyuk and Franzen started their NHL-careers. They were promoted to bigger roles after. Smoothly in, bigger ice-time when the injury bug hits. That's the Red Wings way of build the roster. Push the kid, sign a veteran in front of him, that he will play his lights out to replace that god damn veteran.
Biggest problem in this board are people who don't understant this policy and want Ken Holland fired because of that. Believe me, Kenny knows and Jimmy D knows it better. It's the key for our success. They have built two dynasties and are building now the 3rd one.
Giving the roster spot on a silver plate develops weak losers. Just look at the Oilers. When you have to battle for the spot with a blood taste in your mouth, that develops mentally strong winners. Tatar will go with that route. It's pretty much an Army way. Hierarchy, competition, roles. Not kindergarten.
Brick Top
LANA!!!!!
That's quite the generalization. I think a rookie's spot in a lineup has more to do with his ability and type of game, along with the team he's joining- burying Tatar's offense on the 4th line where he's relying on Emmerton to set him up is a waste, especially for a team that needs goal scorers. And I don't think penciling Tatar in for the 3rd line rather than the 4th line really qualifies as giving him a roster spot on a silver platter. What would you say if Nyquist starts next season on one of the top 2 lines? Would that be the "silver platter" routine?
I don't think Datsyuk and Franzen starting their careers as 4th liners really applies to the situation either- both of them were breaking into stronger lineups than the one Tatar will joining next year (obviously a much stronger lineup in Datsyuk's rookie year). It's not like Tatar would have to beat out world class players for a 3rd line spot, or honestly even a top 6 role.
Unfriendly Ghost
Kasper
I'd really like to see Tatar-Andersson-Nyquist as a 3rd line. It would be very unBabcockly, though.
Henkka
Registered User
Nothing closes that out as an option. Next season will be extremely interesting. Lots of young guys, new tools for Babcock and playing against Eastern Conference. Can't wait.
Unfriendly Ghost
Kasper
True. Plus, we shouldn't pretend that Brunner was very good defensively on that line either. To go from Brunner to Tatar is probably not much worse.
We're not as deep as the teams Datsyuk and even Franzen joined. Tatar did play on the third line (and at times got a sniff of top 6 experience) this season and I don't see any major changes next season either.
Zetterberg - Datsyuk - Tatar
Nyquist - Weiss - Franzen
Abdelkader - Helm - Bertuzzi
Miller - Andersson - Eaves
Tootoo, Emmerton
Kronwall - Ericsson
DeKeyser - Smith
Quincey - Kindl
Colaiacovo/Lashoff
Howard
Gustavsson
Some areas to improve. Lack some grit in the top 6. Bought-out Samulesson to make it work. I'd go ahead and buyout Bertuzzi and add Horton or Clarkson. And get rid of Emmerton for someone like Torres
Zetterberg - Datsyuk - Tatar
Franzen - Weiss - Horton (FLA linkup)
Abdelkader - Helm - Nyquist
Miller - Andersson - Torres
Tootoo, Eaves
Callup Sheahan, Ferraro, Jarnkrok, Glendening, Pulkkinen, Almqvist, Sproul, Ouellet, etc. if you have injuries.
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SportsballChic
Registered User
Okay so I can't quote everyone but this is where I differ basically:
I think Nyquist is a 2nd line winger. When he gets older he might even be on line 1 but for now he plays the necessary 2 way game to fit in with the top 6 and brings enough puck handling to the table to justify it.
I also agree that Tatar is going to have to start on the 3rd line, my issue is if he's good, he won't stay there because he doesn't want to and has made that clear. Babcock is much smarter than I am so maybe he finds him a lot of PP time, he's not a bad penalty killer either from what Grand Rapids fans have told me, etc.
That leaves Brunner on the 3rd line in most scenarios, with or without Fil. My question is A) why are we so worried about spending 3+ a year on a 3rd line winger who doesn't play great defense and might not be strong enough for an 82 game season? and then B) Why would Brunner want to come back for 3rd line minutes when there's no doubt going to be someone out there willing to give him a 3 year deal, at 3 per year minimum for top 6 minutes? I mean are we expecting him to take a BIG leap defensively for some reason? Babcocks system sorta demands the top 2 lines be great 2 way players. Guys who can score but aren't responsible in their own end either don't play or play on the 3rd line in his system.
No matter how I add it up, someone walks away from that deal and Brunner ends up elsewhere. With or without "Team Old Guys" (Tuzz, Cleary, Mikael) sticking around.
I think Nyquist is a 2nd line winger. When he gets older he might even be on line 1 but for now he plays the necessary 2 way game to fit in with the top 6 and brings enough puck handling to the table to justify it.
I also agree that Tatar is going to have to start on the 3rd line, my issue is if he's good, he won't stay there because he doesn't want to and has made that clear. Babcock is much smarter than I am so maybe he finds him a lot of PP time, he's not a bad penalty killer either from what Grand Rapids fans have told me, etc.
That leaves Brunner on the 3rd line in most scenarios, with or without Fil. My question is A) why are we so worried about spending 3+ a year on a 3rd line winger who doesn't play great defense and might not be strong enough for an 82 game season? and then B) Why would Brunner want to come back for 3rd line minutes when there's no doubt going to be someone out there willing to give him a 3 year deal, at 3 per year minimum for top 6 minutes? I mean are we expecting him to take a BIG leap defensively for some reason? Babcocks system sorta demands the top 2 lines be great 2 way players. Guys who can score but aren't responsible in their own end either don't play or play on the 3rd line in his system.
No matter how I add it up, someone walks away from that deal and Brunner ends up elsewhere. With or without "Team Old Guys" (Tuzz, Cleary, Mikael) sticking around.
golffuul
Registered User
- Oct 24, 2011
- 4,923
- 2,784
So...Helene St. James in her freep.com article was saying that the it's pretty much guaranteed that Filppula is gone, unless he suddenly backs off of his term/money demands (7-8 years/5-5.5 per year). She also said that Brunner is pretty much in the bag, but that Cleary is a 50/50 shot, at best.
So if we trade Filppula's for a pick and finally release Cleary, we should down to a manageable number of forwards.
Now we need to figure out how the D will work out. I get the sense that Sproul could make a big impact in camp, as well as Marchenko. That could lead to either Lashoff being let go, via waivers, or traded. I almost wonder if the presence of Sproul/Marchenko/DeKeyser makes Brendan Smith more likely to be traded. Just a thought.
So if we trade Filppula's for a pick and finally release Cleary, we should down to a manageable number of forwards.
Now we need to figure out how the D will work out. I get the sense that Sproul could make a big impact in camp, as well as Marchenko. That could lead to either Lashoff being let go, via waivers, or traded. I almost wonder if the presence of Sproul/Marchenko/DeKeyser makes Brendan Smith more likely to be traded. Just a thought.
SportsballChic
Registered User
Sproul is 20 and hasn't played a minute of pro hockey yet. He could literally kill 3 guys in camp and he's not getting any run in Detroit next year.
I don't think the Wings have given up on Smith by any stretch, but yes the younger D-men in the pipeline will *eventually* mean Holland can cut ties if Smith doesn't round out defensively. Seriously though, they're all like 20-21. Backman and Marchenko are playing pro hockey now but Sproul and Oullette need at *least* a season in Grand Rapids to have an impact on the roster I'd think.
Number1RedWingsFan52
Registered User
The Zetterberg Era
Ball Hockey Sucks
Sproul will not make next years version of the Wings, it's good to be excited about him. His ceiling is absolutely incredible, I really mean it is Weber big, but he has to hit it all and develop perfect for that which is unlikely. But it isn't immediate, he has very real things to work on, he won't be in Detroit unless he completely shreds the AHL and proves to be more defensively advanced than anybody thinks.
Keep in mind even Weber spent his first 48 games in Milwaukee and was called up more because of injury.
Keep in mind even Weber spent his first 48 games in Milwaukee and was called up more because of injury.
Henkka
Registered User
Tatar did play on the 3rd line, because there was a bunch of injuries. On paper, if everyone is healthy, he starts from the 4th line. It could take month or two months, if he plays great, promoted to upper lines. But before that happens he has to show he belongs higher. He does not get a free way over our other 3rd liners.
We are a very deep team at next season.
Tatar will have the Hudler role at his first season. 4th line and 2nd PP. Smoothly in.
I'm not going to call out names but what about the argument of Cleary having more, or equal, of an impact than the Calder Cup MVP next year?
Yeaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
Yeaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
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tatar (or nyquist) could easily replace abdelkader on the first line, thank god. i see tats starting on the third line and working his way up to the top 6 fairly quickly
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