Is Sidney Crosby on track to be (or already is) the 4th best forward ever?

[Legionnaire]

Wait a minute... One was protected while the other was not, but you got it backwards.

Absolutely not. The NHL has protected Crosby and that a MAJOR difference.

Besides. You know that the Pens rolled heavys to do the same thing.

 

[Hanji]

Jagr wasn’t ahead of Sid after 2013.

Of course Jagr is.

 

[bambamcam4ever]

No.

They made rules to slow Gretz down. They made rules to protect and prop up Crosby. That creates a huge gulf between the two.

WTF are you talking about? He's taken more referee-sanctioned abuse than any star player since Lemieux.

 

[pitcher]

We’re talking forwards, not goal scorers. There is a reason Bossy is not up there despite being a top five goal scorer of all time.

There is a reason why both Bobby Hull and Rocket Richard are always considered right outside the top 4. Goal scoring is a major part of hockey, and is much harder than to get points.

Also, longevity and durability counts for a lot. Just look at the ranking of Lemieux and Howe. There are no what ifs when it comes down to rank the best players of all time.

 

[Legionnaire]

WTF are you talking about? He's taken more referee-sanctioned abuse than any star player since Lemieux.

Now that's funny.

 

[7even]

Yeah, and the guy that's won 7 rockets hasn't been legitimately remarkable. He's actually closer to bust territory than top 6 forward material imo.

Not what I was saying. I was responding to say that Crosby shouldn't be knocked points for lack of individual awards due to consecutive injury when you have 1000 games of work to look at at it's own merit. Not saying anything about Ovechkin. GOAT goalscorer imo.

 

[JJ68]

Good for him...Ovechkin beat Crosby 11 times and beat the league 7 times.

Add an extra number to each in a week.

Kids, this is all fine and dandy but Jagr scored goals and made plays. He had more overall skill and talent, and played in a tougher, harder era. And maintained his health during it. He carried Kip Miller and Jan Hrdina. He dominated his peers. Crosby has trouble out producing the likes of Benn, and Ovi well aside from his great ability to score goals, the guy just cant make plays.

Jagr is the 4th best if there was one. He's the greatest since Wayne and Mario.

 

[Gurglesons]

Kids, this is all fine and dandy but Jagr scored goals and made plays. He had more overall skill and talent, and played in a tougher, harder era. And maintained his health during it. He carried Kip Miller and Jan Hrdina. He dominated his peers. Crosby has trouble out producing the likes of Benn, and Ovi well aside from his great ability to score goals, the guy just cant make plays.

Jagr is the 4th best if there was one. He's the greatest since Wayne and Mario.

Jagr lost an Art Ross to Jarome Iginla.

 

[WingsMJN2965]

I'm not forgetting about Alex at all. He's another all-time great but Sid is just simply better, comfortably but not by alot.

You wanna throw the goals argument out there, if Crosby had Ovechkin's GP, he'd have like 150-200 more points than him.

At the end of the day, Ovechkin is going down as the GOAT when it comes to scoring goals.

 

[SeanConn]

Jagr wasn’t ahead of Sid after 2013.

maybe not in 2013, but career wise, Jagr is ahead... he's #2 all time in points and won 5 Art Ross Trophy's... (4 of them consecutively)

 

[JJ68]

Jagr lost an Art Ross to Jarome Iginla.

Iggy is greater than Benn by miles. Jagr had won like 4 straight, was with a new team...no chemistry and he was unhappy.

 

[Aladyyn]

The reign of the historical circlejerk in hockey is OVER. From now on until the end of humanity as we know it everyone will have the opportunity to see how great players like Crosby and Ovechkin were. No more nostalgia blindness, no more exaggerated word of mouth. Crosby and Ovechkin will get their due as top 10 players of all time and there's nothing anyone can do about it.

 

[SeanConn]

The reign of the historical ********** in hockey is OVER. From now on until the end of humanity as we know it everyone will have the opportunity to see how great players like Crosby and Ovechkin were. No more nostalgia blindness, no more exaggerated word of mouth. Crosby and Ovechkin will get their due as top 10 players of all time and there's nothing anyone can do about it.

they're both top 10 players, imo... I just don't think either can be put ahead of Jagr yet

 

[KoozNetsOff 92]

Crosby has done everything Ovechkin has done..? He also has played many less games and basically has the same point totals.

Not to mention is one of the few two time Conn winners of all time and has two other Conn worthy post seasons..

Crosby hasn't done everything OV has done. 17-11 individual awards. And please don't bring up fantasy awards for Crosby because we can do the same for OV.

 

[Demandedace]

So, Sid beat the greatest goal scorer of all time twice. While outproducing him in less games..

One of those seasons Ovi played ten less games and finished with one less goal and was only three points off of the Art Ross

Meanwhile, Crosby has never even sniffed 50 outside of that season

 

[thadd]

99, 66 and 9 beat him without question.

I'm guessing 99.9% of us here are too young to remember the other great players on the original 6 teams and there's a lot to be said for that. Stan Mikita, Bobby Hull, Rocket Richard and Jean Beliveau might belong in the conversation. Am I selling Phil Esposito short? As if we'd know.

Easily take him over Forsberg, Steve-Y, Sakic, Jagr, Federov, Datsuk, Jagr and Brett Hull. Pretty sure Cam Neely would be in this group if he hadn't been injured.

Donno about Messier. There's an argument to be made there for sure. Dude was a dominant monster who played in the shadow of the most dominant player to ever play the sport.

 

[KaseMeOutside]

I'm not forgetting about Alex at all. He's another all-time great but Sid is just simply better, comfortably but not by alot.

You wanna throw the goals argument out there, if Crosby had Ovechkin's GP, he'd have like 150-200 more points than him.

But Crosby doesn't have Ovechkins games played and scoring goals is harder than getting assists. I don't see how you can even put Sid above Jagr, who dominated his peers more than Sid

 

[thadd]

One of those seasons Ovi played ten less games and finished with one less goal and was only three points off of the Art Ross

Meanwhile, Crosby has never even sniffed 50 outside of that season

While Ovechkin is greatly unappreciated, he still needs another cup.
Call me dumb, but I think being Russian loses him merit points.
Hear me out.
I'm Canadian, for the record.
Canada will always toot their horn about how Sidney Crosby is the best player in the world and how Canada is the most powerful hockey power in the world. Of course they're going to give the Canadian player more attention. It's more marketable. Sidney Crosby doesn't play hockey in Canada, but that's not going to stop him from getting endorsements with Canadian companies that show up on Canadian media.

While I'm sure Ovechkin gets his fair share of attention in some parts of America (most notably, Washington), I'm pretty sure you'd see a lot more of him on nation wide media if he were an American. Works like that in a lot of countries.

So, going back to my first sentence While Ovechkin is greatly unappreciated, he still needs another cup...

It's pretty much apples and oranges. In Russia he'll go down as being the best hockey player in the world during his era, while Crosby will go down in North America for being the best is his. If you really wanted to debate it to no end, there's a good argument to be made on both players' behalf.

Ovechkin has more individual hardware and he had a bunch of years where he seemed to be the only guy on his team that showed up in the playoffs, while Crosby could have done more in some seasons, didn't score as many goals and could have been even greater already if not for injuries.

Seems to me that Ovechkin has played on deeper teams, but he had a bunch of teammates earlier in his career that were only showing up during the regular season. There's a good case to be made that Crosby brought better leadership to the locker room. That's a part of making players around you better and that's something that's included in being a great player, as well.

If Gretzky didn't make the other players around him that much better a bum like Dave Semenko sure as hell wouldn't have been scoring 12 goals in 60 games. Also Marty Mcsorley once scored 40 points in a season!

 

[thadd]

But Crosby doesn't have Ovechkins games played and scoring goals is harder than getting assists. I don't see how you can even put Sid above Jagr, who dominated his peers more than Sid

Jagr couldn't cary a team. When the going got tough in Washington and New York, he folded.
Love the dude.
Love his personality.
Love watching him score, but he's a cut below a lot of players on the list.
He always needed someone in front of him to win and the proof is what he accomplished after leaving Mario's side.

I easily take Sakic and Yzerman over Jagr for best forwards (not best goal scorers) all time. They knew how to cary a team and win.

 

[Lolonegoal]

lmao what does that have to do with anything

people always have there stupid rationale for excluding or lowering a players ranking when they can't think of a reasonable explanation.

I remember when the first top 50 hockey players of all time came out and Yzerman was not on it. He was still active but near the end of his career and had gotten his cups. The rationale on the board of hockey 'experts' that voted was that it was because he was never on an all-star team.

 

[Lolonegoal]

funny how if they played the same amount of games Ovechkin having 60 more goals is the deciding factor and NOT the fact that Crosby would be ahead by well over 100 more points, play a tougher position AND have more cups, Smythes, not to mention the trophies he missed out on due to injury.

lol you can't just assume a player would win something if the injury did not occur, and give them value for what they could potentially have done. If anything Ovechkin gets bonus value for his durability throughout his career and Crosby looses for for his injuries. Its about what you're able to do throughout the durartion of your career, which includes your durability, and value your team. You can't in the same discussion say Ovechkin's not as good because he's brought less cups to his team than, not take away from Crosby for missing so many games, but give him extra points for what he could of not, had he not been injury prone. Lol get real

 

[BigEezyE22]

No.

They made rules to slow Gretz down. They made rules to protect and prop up Crosby. That creates a huge gulf between the two.

When did they make rules to slow Gretzky down?

 

[Troubadour]

Jagr lost an Art Ross to Jarome Iginla.

By 17 points...

aaaand 13 games

I mean, the Washington Jagr was not the Penguins Jagr by any means, but he was definitely still capable of getting 20 in 13. So yours is a bad take.

Forsberg, Steve-Y, Sakic, Jagr, Federov, Datsuk, Jagr and Brett Hull.

You have one of them guys twice there. And he does not belong.

Jagr couldn't cary a team. When the going got tough in Washington and New York, he folded.

Huh? Once he left the Pens, they did not make the postseason until 2007. Not only Jagr was the sole reason the Pens remained a playoff team in their near-bankrupt days (and we're talking about a hey-guys-the-sticks-have-not-arrived state), he is the sole reason the Pens are still in Pittsburgh.

He blew his Washington mission, but still scored at over a PPG pace in the only playoff series he played with them, and he played that series with a broken wrist.

You're free to prefer Crosby, but please, don't misinform.

 

[Killer Orcas]

No.

They made rules to slow Gretz down. They made rules to protect and prop up Crosby. That creates a huge gulf between the two.

Ya forgot they got rid of 4 on 4 because of those Gretzky teams I remember now. Guess brought it back now to help scoring!

 

[Killer Orcas]

When did they make rules to slow Gretzky down?

Got rid of 4 on 4 because Oilers were lighting up competition in 80's.