Is Sidney Crosby on track to be (or already is) the 4th best forward ever?

[DearDiary]

And has no Malkin as a teammate

Malkin warming the bench doesn't help Crosby put up points, other than a few min on the powerplay. Ovechkin gets to play with elite talent every shift, Crosby has been doing it himself his entire career until this season with Guentzal.

Caps would have several cups if Ovechkin could carry his line and let Backstrom take secondary matchups (last few years, Kuznetsov 3rd line matchups). Pens would have 0 cups if Crosby needed Malkin on his line every shift

 

[RorschachWJK]

Are you talking about the guy who has two less cups and is not a center?

Cups are very much team awards.

As to the OPs question: no.

 

[Randyne]

Malkin warming the bench doesn't help Crosby put up points

Except 305 points he contributed to Crosby.

Pens would have 0 cups if Crosby needed Malkin on his line every shift

Crosby needed Malkin to carry the team after the second round.

 

[Cornpuckers]

He’s in the top 10, but not on the Mt Rushmore...in addition to the aforementioned Gretzky, Lemieux and Howe, I would put Messier, Sacic, Beliveau and Yzerman ahead of Sid...that does not diminish his accomplishments—he’s in great company.

 

[Trocity]

Don't Crosby and Ovi have like the same amount of points with Crosby playing like 150 less games? Ovi is an all time great, but that's not much of a debate imo.

 

[KoozNetsOff 92]

Yes, and you have to extend that beyond just counting stats. Crosby doesn't have the individual hardware that Ovi does but holistically, over the last fifteen years, Crosby's body of work and what he's done on the ice in the games he's played is legitimately remarkable.

I never said Crosby isn't one of the greatest, I never said anything about his talent. I just said fantasy what ifs don't mean anything.

 

[talitintti]

One of the best players of his era, but his supposed transcendence over his peers is a media fabrication, not reality.

 

[NobodyBeatsTheWiz]

Don't Crosby and Ovi have like the same amount of points with Crosby playing like 150 less games? Ovi is an all time great, but that's not much of a debate imo.

Ovechkin also has 214 more goals. If Crosby scored a theoretical goal in each of 150 missed games, Ovechkin would still have 64 more goals.

It really comes down to what you value more. I think it's completely silly to place one definitively over the other. They will (and should) be forever linked. They're the defining players of the 21st century NHL.

 

[Lolonegoal]

lol no. when Richard retired he held 17 NHL records. Crosby just doesn't stand out against the other players of his era enough to be as great as some claim he is. Over the last decade he has 22 more points than Patrick Kane, and 23 more than Ovechkin. He doesn't even have 100 more PTS than Claude Giroux. Pavelski, Benn, Perry, and Kessel are all within 30 goals of him and Ovechkin, Stamokos, and Tavares have more. In comparison in the 50s Gordie Howe had 249 PTS than the next highest point getter of the decade. Aside from the top 10 players, trailing him he had DOUBLE every other players point total in that decade. Players in this decade who have scored more than 1/2 of Crosby's point totals include: Neilsen, Plekanec, Perron, Kunitz, Bailey, etc. The highest scoring forward this decade under 1/2 of Crosby's PTS is Tyler Bozak. For Howe, it was Red Kelly.

I'm not convinced Crosby's much different than the Yzermans/Sakics, I think he just plays in an era without other Yzermans/Sakics, and hasn't been outshined by a Gretzky or Lemieux level talent.

 

[Legionnaire]

Does that mean McDavid wins? They just ignore the rules for him.

Well he was suspended. Gasp.

Honestly, both Gretz and Sid have had similar criticism.

Also, that Crysby thread made me remember how much Gretz was called a whiner too.

 

[WesMcCauley]

He was handed a Conn Smythe by the media.

Ovi deserved his Conn Smythe way more than Sid deserved his in 15/16....
Ovi had 15 goals in 17/18 which was the most since 08/09 when Sid also had 15 goals in the playoffs.

Last time a player had more than 15 goals in the playoffs was in 95/96 when Sakic had 18.

 

[heartbreak]

Are you talking about the guy who has two less cups and is not a center?

lmao what does that have to do with anything

 

[PensandCaps]

Hes already way ahead of Gretzky

 

[Kcb12345]

Lol Ovechkin is not a better player than Crosby. Goal scorer? Sure. Player? Not close.

 

[Bouboumaster]

He really might be

 

[Gurglesons]

Key word "if". Players are judged on what they did, not what they might have or could have done.

Crosby has done everything Ovechkin has done..? He also has played many less games and basically has the same point totals.

Not to mention is one of the few two time Conn winners of all time and has two other Conn worthy post seasons..

 

[Gurglesons]

He’s in the top 10, but not on the Mt Rushmore...in addition to the aforementioned Gretzky, Lemieux and Howe, I would put Messier, Sacic, Beliveau and Yzerman ahead of Sid...that does not diminish his accomplishments—he’s in great company.

Why would you put any of those players ahead of Sid? Just bizarre.

In terms of forwards it goes Gretzky, Lemieux / Howe, Sid / Richard / Hull.

 

[Video Nasty]

In the top 4 of the past 30 years, sure. Of all time, not even close.

 

[Khomutov]

Lol Ovechkin is not a better player than Crosby. Goal scorer? Sure. Player? Not close.

It's close man. Even when you think Crosby is better.

 

[Son Goku]

Crosby has done everything Ovechkin has done..? He also has played many less games and basically has the same point totals.

Not to mention is one of the few two time Conn winners of all time and has two other Conn worthy post seasons..

funny how if they played the same amount of games Ovechkin having 60 more goals is the deciding factor and NOT the fact that Crosby would be ahead by well over 100 more points, play a tougher position AND have more cups, Smythes, not to mention the trophies he missed out on due to injury.

 

[Gurglesons]

It's close man. Even when you think Crosby is better.

It’s not though.

Not to mention the fact Sid beat the “greatest goal scorer of all time” twice.

 

[Zuluss]

I do not think Crosby has high enough peak to surpass several forwards outside of Big3. Take Jagr, for example:

Crosby, 7 best % leads over #10 in points
32-27-26-19-17-15-14
Jagr, 7 best % leads over #10 in points
43-39-36-32-32-29-22

Crosby's most productive season would be Jagr's 4th best in terms of relative dominance over the field, and Crosby's 2nd-best season would be Jagr's 7th-best. To put it another way, peak Crosby would be consistently 10-15 points behind peak Jagr. That's a bit too much of a gap to cover with better defense and more team success, especially considering the fact that Jagr was a visibly better goal-scorer.

Now take Lafleur, 7 best % leads over #10 in points
52-51-42-33-26-25

Granted, those 6 seasons is all Lafleur has in terms of elite seasons, and Crosby already beats him on longevity pretty easily, but that gap in the very best years! I am still not sure I have come around on Crosby>Lafleur.

Now, take Mikita - since the league was smaller back then, it is probably fair to look at his point leads over #5 in points, not #10:

Crosby, 7 best % leads over #10 in points
32-27-26-19-17-15-14
Mikita, 7 best % leads over #5 in points
49-30-22-13-12-8-8

On the tail end, Crosby looks better, but again, the peak years favor Mikita.

And then there are goal-scoring legends like Richard and Bobby Hull, and Beliveau, who is the definition of well-roundedness and leadership, and we come to the second problem in Crosby's comparisons with all-time greats: he does not have a defining trait.
If we put a lot of weight on team success and playoffs, how can we rank Crosby ahead of Richard and Beliveau?
If we put a lot of weight on individual hardware, how can we not pick Jagr and Bobby Hull (and probably Mikita and Esposito) ahead of him?

 

[24 others]

It almost looked like people would start discussing Crosby vs. Hull, Beliveau, Jagr - and the thread gets moved to the History forum.

Fortunately, already the first response managed to bring up Ovechkin, thus saving the thread for the main board and turning it into, guess what, a Sid vs. Ovie thread. Well done!

 

[Maestro84]

You're forgetting the guy who entered the NHL the same year as Sid and has 215 more goals, more MVPs, and way more hardware.

Crosby's pretty clearly the "better" player, but Ovie might go down as the "greater" player due to having a healthier career

 

[ottawa]

Yes, and you have to extend that beyond just counting stats. Crosby doesn't have the individual hardware that Ovi does but holistically, over the last fifteen years, Crosby's body of work and what he's done on the ice in the games he's played is legitimately remarkable.

Yeah, and the guy that's won 7 rockets hasn't been legitimately remarkable. He's actually closer to bust territory than top 6 forward material imo.