Is now the time to deal JVR?

[WestCoastLeafs]

I thought JVR performed much better when he was on Kadri's line last season compared to when he was with Kessel?

They were briefly together and basically dominating play, holding it in the Offensive zone the entire shift, and then Carlyle/Horachek (can't remember who it was at that point) decides to go back to the tried and true (ahem) method

 

[Daisy Jane]

The number of players in the NHL without some consistency issues is slim to none and every player traded isn't inherently flawed. I don't know, just seems like a weak argument for one of the best assets on the team to be shipped out.

alright. I'll specify.

JVR's consistency problems is that he doesn't use his size at all. not all the time. Carlyle commented on this a few years ago. James before was a "yes but" player. You tell him anything and there was always a "yes but," response. (to compare this to new prospect Marner - everytime he is asked to do something, it's "yes, coach,, sure coach."

JVR does't use his body for a big man, he doesn't use his speed (you know what I mean - like you know when he can cut around a player and no one can catch him. he doesn't do that nearly enough). So this is (for me) quintessential big boy, big talent - doesn't use it/put it together consistently enough. And like Kessel my main problem is - it's okay if you are "not very good" but you can not be a liability. JVR is a liability. (and for him it's two fold, because it's not just even strength it's on the PK/PP as well).

And my pet peeve is that while his "in between the legs" move was all cute and all, it became his go to, instead of just mucking it up, and all. I am all team skill and all - but be a grit grinder some of the time as well.

JVR isn't necessary here. the only way I see him staying is if we can't get another talent (as it appears to me that they don't want to kick anyone from the marlies that they don't have to).

 

[WestCoastLeafs]

He just turned 25 in May.

Prime scoring years are mid-to-late 20s. Do we waste them on a rebuild?

 

[HOTD]

26 actually. So were talking 32-33 maybe if were ready even by then.

My mistake, you're right. Well before the Oilers won the lottery, mad a few trades and signed a few guys, things were looking pretty bleak. Leafs could be competitive in 4 years + / - a year IMO.

 

[91Kadri91*]

I thought JVR performed much better when he was on Kadri's line last season compared to when he was with Kessel?

Unfortunately, he did not. He was actually the only skater who played 150+ minutes (15 total) with Kadri that played incontrovertibly better (higher GF and CF%) without him.

 

[The Apologist]

I agree that we should be trying to maximize value, I just think despite only being a couple years younger than Kessel, JvR will still hold decent value despite how the first half of next season goes. IMO he seems like a pretty coachable player and I would like to see what "the best coach in hockey" can do with him before shipping him off.

But what indications are there that his value will increase?
The same negatives that caused Philly to give up on him are still prevalent in Toronto. He was a defensive hole under Randy and completely gave up under Horachek. Either that or Phil really was the lynchpin and once he went cold the real JVR showed up (or rather didnt show up).

Neither looks good on him.

This could end up biting us big time.

 

[Daisy Jane]

This is why I love you Daisy!! Clarity in the middle of a **** storm.

JVR has all the same issues Phil had really. Just less talented and a much better contract.

thank you

and he does, and that's it. people think contract and go "oh - no, we should keep him."

no. no we don't.

 

[The Apologist]

My mistake, you're right. Well before the Oilers won the lottery, mad a few trades and signed a few guys, things were looking pretty bleak. Leafs could be competitive in 4 years + / - a year IMO.

But given what weve seen of him, is he really someone we can expect to count on?
He was just as big a problem with this core as all the others. I susoect we're about to see just how much worse he can get.

 

[WestCoastLeafs]

I dont think we should give him away by any means, Im just worried that the honeymoon is about to come to a completely disastrous end and it may be too late to maximize value.

I know what you mean... remember, I'm 50% on your side

Seems like teams always end up moving people a year or two late - what kind of return do we get for Kessel 2 seasons ago for example? Even after last season, if we made it clear we were taking offers, much better chance for a good return then I think.

TDL might be a good time to move him -- value of players seems to max out at that point, and picks get tossed around like candy. The low cap hit should make it feasible to move him.

 

[WestCoastLeafs]

Unfortunately, he did not. He was actually the only skater who played 150+ minutes (15 total) with Kadri that played incontrovertibly better (higher GF and CF%) without him.

Interesting - perhaps my eye test failed me.

 

[tml19]

26 actually. So were talking 32-33 maybe if were ready even by then.

6-7 years to rebuild... This team will be getting into the playoffs in 3 to 4 years. Contending in 5-6. So JVR should be usefull to the team when he is 29-30. His contract would be gone by then however. The leafs can either sell high with his contract this offseason or decide to keep him as a vet for the kids. 30 yrs isnt old at all. IMO the way JVR plays he should be fine until he is atleast 35 baring a injury.

I would be fine with either option but would prefer them to trade him. Sell high on his contract and get a return that would definately be higher then Kessel's. This also allows them to lose a few more games losing JVR's goals.

 

[MapleLife*]

Should he be traded? Yes. Value will never be higher.

Will he be traded? Absolutely not

 

[Mitchy]

I'd wait for a bit. It's a buyer's market right now.

 

[The Apologist]

6-7 years to rebuild... This team will be getting into the playoffs in 3 to 4 years. Contending in 5-6. So JVR should be usefull to the team when he is 29-30. His contract would be gone by then however. The leafs can either sell high with his contract this offseason or decide to keep him as a vet for the kids. 30 yrs isnt old at all. IMO the way JVR plays he should be fine until he is atleast 35 baring a injury.

I would be fine with either option but would prefer them to trade him. Sell high on his contract and get a return that would definately be higher then Kessel's. This also allows them to lose a few more games losing JVR's goals.

Why would we want a lazy, one dimensional, floating veteran teaching our youth again? And I agree that JVR will be around a while. Lack of effort and contact will do that for you.

 

[HOTD]

Prime scoring years are mid-to-late 20s. Do we waste them on a rebuild?

Iginla scored 50 as a 31 year old.

Alfredsson scored 40 as a 30 year old.

Hossa 40 as a 30 year old.

St. Louis 43 as a 32 year old

Marleau 44 as a 31 year old.

 

[91Kadri91*]

Interesting - perhaps my eye test failed me.

It was a really small sample, so it doesn't mean they'll never play well together (they played okay in 13/14), it just means that they didn't play well together last season.

 

[Tak7]

No, you don't.

Just because you are rebuilding, doesn't mean you trade away everybody. Plus, JvR is at a decent age to be in his prime years when this team begins to turn the corner and win. Hell, he might even have a letter on his jersey by then - we don't know.

You keep him and see what happens. If he continues down a strong road to development, into his prime, then maybe you move him for a better return then. Or, you keep him and carry him as your "new" core.

Either way - you don't move him now.

 

[HOTD]

But given what weve seen of him, is he really someone we can expect to count on?
He was just as big a problem with this core as all the others. I susoect we're about to see just how much worse he can get.

Fair enough. Maybe the biggest difference between Phil and the others was that he was under constant scrutiny. However, I still would like to see if Babcock can turn him into something special.

Warranted or not, Phil was labelled as a coach killer. That's never been the case with JVR. If he's coachable and can change, I don't doubt he'll be a better player under Babcock.

 

[The Apologist]

I know what you mean... remember, I'm 50% on your side

Seems like teams always end up moving people a year or two late - what kind of return do we get for Kessel 2 seasons ago for example? Even after last season, if we made it clear we were taking offers, much better chance for a good return then I think.

TDL might be a good time to move him -- value of players seems to max out at that point, and picks get tossed around like candy. The low cap hit should make it feasible to move him.

But this is much different than two years ago. We have zero expectations for the next several seasons. There really is no reason to hang on to him. I agree that the TDL could be a good time assuming he hasnt bottomed out by then or the fanbase hasnt destroyed him.

 

[The Apologist]

Fair enough. Maybe the biggest difference between Phil and the others was that he was under constant scrutiny. However, I still would like to see if Babcock can turn him into something special.

Warranted or not, Phil was labelled as a coach killer. That's never been the case with JVR. If he's coachable and can change, I don't doubt he'll be a better player under Babcock.

I think JVR is about to feel that scrutiny. I dont think it will be pretty.

 

[tml19]

Why would we want a lazy, one dimensional, floating veteran teaching our youth again? And I agree that JVR will be around a while. Lack of effort and contact will do that for you.

He isnt even that bad in terms of floating. Things get blown way out of proportion on HF. He seems coachable IMO, but what do I know. If he isnt coachable ship him out but I feel he is. When he first came to the leafs Carlyle told him to go to the net and he did start to. Players can be taught to play D. They cant be taught to score.

 

[HOTD]

I think JVR is about to feel that scrutiny. I dont think it will be pretty.

Sure, it could happen. Hopefully Babcock instills some pride and work ethic, and can light a fire under some these guys. If the effort is there, I don't care if the Leafs win 20 games next season.

 

[hamzarocks]

Dude is terrible defensively. Hes been a 30-30 guy alongside Phil Kessel. You think he even approaches that this year? This sounds a whole lot like all the reasons people wanted to KEEP Phil. JVR is just as guilty of giving up. He disappears for games on end.

Time to stop makinv excuses for him. Im willing to bet by this time next year if hes still a Leaf were talking about how we offload a soft 40 pt player.

nah i dont see it. He never got the chance to play under a real coach here in toronto who focused on proper defensive structure. Babcock will help this team out a lot. He gets to go from bozak to kadri as his center which is a huge boost for him both offensively and defensively. If he commits himself he can stay a 30 and 30 guy on this team. I dont see him going down to 40 points.

 

[The Apologist]

He isnt even that bad in terms of floating. Things get blown way out of proportion on HF. He seems coachable IMO, but what do I know. If he isnt coachable ship him out but I feel he is. When he first came to the leafs Carlyle told him to go to the net and he did start to. Players can be taught to play D. They cant be taught to score.

He IS that bad though. Absolutely is. How long do we keep making excuses for this guy? He doesnt go to the net anywhere near as often as he should or muck it up anywhere near as much as his size would have you believe. And now he doesnt have Phil for other teams to focus on or to set him up for pretty tap ins.

 

[The Apologist]

Sure, it could happen. Hopefully Babcock instills some pride and work ethic, and can light a fire under some these guys. If the effort is there, I don't care if the Leafs win 20 games next season.

I do care if it means a guy we could have landed a small fortune for is suddenly traded for pennies on the dollar. I dont want another Kessel deal.