TSN: Is Kessel the New Sundin?

[ldnk]

It's ridiculous to compare them, basically the only similarity is that they are both the "stars" of the leafs, leading the offensive production.

Sundin playing centre HAS to be strong defensively and should also be great at possession etc. Kessel as Winger has much less of a focus on defence.

I highly doubt many Wingers in the HHOF were known for their amazing defensive play, the vast majority were just great scorers, often a side-product of having a great team!

That's usually because right from an early age, the best players are put at center and the ones who are still good defensively don't get moved to the wing later on.

 

[Al14]

Kessel is NO Sundin! Sundin is NO Kessel!

Cannot compare the two!

Now, too bad we couldn't have had the two of them at the same time!

 

[yubbers]

The reason to trade him, I've already previously mentioned. I can't remember a team winning the cup with a Kessel like player as their #1.

The closest comparison to Kessel would be Hull IMO. You can argue Hull wasn't the number 1 on the Stars and Red Wings when they won their cups but he was a big part of them

Trading kessel is nonsense

 

[masarume]

The closest comparison to Kessel would be Hull IMO. You can argue Hull wasn't the number 1 on the Stars and Red Wings when they won their cups but he was a big part of them

Trading kessel is nonsense

I could argue? You mean when Yzerman, Shanahan, and Lidstrom were on that team?
Or when Madano and Nieuwendyk were on the Stars? Come on, now.
So you're saying we need either a 1C and a 1D or a 1C and 2C for us to contend with Kessel. Not saying Hull wasn't a key part, but he was not the best player on those teams.

Not consider trading him is nonsense because a team's never won with a team structure like ours.

 

[Brewsky]

Sittler = Sundin
Vaive = Kessel
MacDonald = Roberts

OMG - now that's a line imagine Roberts-Sundin

 

[yubbers]

I could argue? You mean when Yzerman, Shanahan, and Lidstrom were on that team?
Or when Madano and Nieuwendyk were on the Stars? Come on, now.
So you're saying we need either a 1C and a 1D or a 1C and 2C for us to contend with Kessel. Not saying Hull wasn't a key part, but he was not the best player on those teams.

Not consider trading him is nonsense because a team's never won with a team structure like ours.

That's why I said it.

100% we need a #1 center and more importantly need a real #1 dman. The back end is the biggest problem with the team. Not up front.

You don't just go trading elite snipers

 

[masarume]

That's why I said it.

100% we need a #1 center and more importantly need a real #1 dman. The back end is the biggest problem with the team. Not up front.

You don't just go trading elite snipers

How do you propose we get these?
I'm just saying our best chance to acquire the assets that lead us to a 1C and 1D is by dealing Kessel. Draft up high. That would mean we would have to loose. Or luck out really hard and stop trading our 2nd/3rd/4th rounders. I'm not saying Kessel is worthless and he's the problem with our team.

You can pretty much say every team (maybe less the top 4-6 teams in the league) are a 1C and 1D away from being contenders. How does that make us any different? You can't just wish upon these type of players. You certainly can't get them by aiming to finish 6th-8th in the conference every year.

Anyways we're going off topic.

 

[colchar]

I was watching TSN Top 10 about the trade that brought Sundin, arguably one of the greatest IF not the greatest to ever dawn the maple leaf of their chest.

There are plenty of others who were better than Sundin.

 

[MrDiddlez]

It's threads like these that make me glad that nobody here will ever make actual decisions about the Leafs. Kessel would be gone.

In all seriousness is Kessel our new Sundin? No, of course not what a stupid question.

Is Kessel a plug who you can't win around? No, of course not what a stupid question.

It's a team game. Not every franchise player is going to be Wendel.

 

[francis246]

The reason to trade him, I've already previously mentioned. I can't remember a team winning the cup with a Kessel like player as their #1. I'm not saying we sell him for pennies on the dollar. It would irresponsible to not know his market value.

Ironic because we dealt two 1st and a 2nd for Kessel. At the end of the day, it's a numbers game as much as it is a Scouting game. We need picks to maximize our chances of drafting well. It's like Detroit's HÃ¥kan Andersson said, "if we knew Pavel and Henrik were going to be as good as they are, we wouldn't have waited that long to pick them."

Which makes trades for Bolland and Holland shake my head. Bernier I get because of his age and pedigree, but the rest are moves that contending team makes.

What good is a #1 without a top winger. I'm going to counter your point with this. Every one of those teams with a #1 C had an elite level winger.

Kopitar had Gaborik and Brown
Toews had Kane and Hossa
Datsyuk had Zetterberg and Franzen
Getzlaf had Perry and Ryan.

My point is trading the ONE GREAT ASSET you have for another ASSET WILL NOT SOLVE YOUR PROBLEM. It leaves you with another whole.

The problem isn't Kessel, the problem is management has refused to be patient and draft a #1 center. You can't just assume you will sign or get a #1 center through trade. It won't happen. And oh if you say you can't win a championship with Kessel as your top player why would other teams trade their top assets for him? Honestly your argument is just decreasing in value as I go on. Also for those people who say Kessel's contract will hinder our chances at a championship... Could you be any more stupid? 1. The salary cap will increase and it will probably keep increasing as years go on. 2. Salaries don't win championships, on ice production does.

 

[Leafspoison*]

Bottom line about Sundin

He was only ever in top 10 in points once, and top 10 in goals twice and missed the playoffs half the time he was here.

those are the facts. Now for the people that want to put him at hero status, jeez, just pick someone else.

And the fact that he leads the leafs in points etc, really speaks volumes about how this team has drafted for so many years, because Sundin was a trade.

It also speaks volumes of how bad this team has sucked for 44 of the 47 years since we last won a cup.

Sundin played amazing for his country....but was just MEH here.

 

[johnny_rudeboy]

On the main board they are comparing Sundin and Kopitar and most posters seem to say Sundin > Kopitar. I reckon most posters would agree on Kopitar > Kessel so how on earth can it be Kessel = Sundin? They were about equal when it came to creating offense but then Sundin was good defensively and a leader and clutch as well. Most things Kessel aint.

 

[masarume]

What good is a #1 without a top winger. I'm going to counter your point with this. Every one of those teams with a #1 C had an elite level winger.

Kopitar had Gaborik and Brown
Toews had Kane and Hossa
Datsyuk had Zetterberg and Franzen
Getzlaf had Perry and Ryan.

My point is trading the ONE GREAT ASSET you have for another ASSET WILL NOT SOLVE YOUR PROBLEM. It leaves you with another whole.

The problem isn't Kessel, the problem is management has refused to be patient and draft a #1 center. You can't just assume you will sign or get a #1 center through trade. It won't happen. And oh if you say you can't win a championship with Kessel as your top player why would other teams trade their top assets for him? Honestly your argument is just decreasing in value as I go on. Also for those people who say Kessel's contract will hinder our chances at a championship... Could you be any more stupid? 1. The salary cap will increase and it will probably keep increasing as years go on. 2. Salaries don't win championships, on ice production does.

A lot of anger over something I never said.

I'm not pushing a 1 for 1 deal where you trade Kessel for another 1C or 1D straight up.
I also never stated that you don't need wingers to win a cup.
I even said, Hull was an important part to both of the cups he's won. So all this animosity seems unwarranted.

To address your first point, in those combos you named, I'd argue the Center was more vital to the cup win than any of the wingers. I'd also argue that their #1 defense pairing was more integral as well. Also seems a stretch calling Brown an "elite" winger.

Your second point - how can you not see the irony in that problem. Management not being patient to draft a 1C? We dealt Kessel for, 3 chances to draft a 1C. So you're saying keep Kessel, but we need more picks? I'm not sure how this is possible.

Third point - I've never indicated anywhere that another organization would or should trade their Crosby/Toews/Stamkos for Kessel. If we do deal Kessel, it would be for high draft picks that we can use to draft or develop younger players. An organization would totally give up potential assets to get their hands on an established one.

Fourth.. comment - the argument I'm making is that we don't have enough assets to win the cup. Dealing Kessel would give us a very good chance at acquiring these assets. It would also allow us to get younger so we can time the core of our team to be around the same age. Phaneuf is 29. Kessel is 26. We should be building around Rielly who's 20 when puck drops for next season.

The argument that you somehow imagined I'm putting up is collapsing, but I've never said these things that you're defending.

I'm not bashing Phil's value to the team. Again, what I'm saying is that Kessel is a great winger, but we first need to take care of some other areas before we focus on locking-down that elite winger. The Centers and Dmen are much harder to come by.

 

[francis246]

Can we put this leader **** to bed? Just because a player doesn't wear a letter doesn't mean he isn't a leader. Maybe it is possible that Kessel didn't want to wear a letter? Kessel is a leader in his own right, he is the leader offensively. The guys on the team look to him for big points at key times and out of everyone on the team he is usually able to come through. DO you know how stupid some of you guys sound right now? You cannot possibly put the whole team on one players back. We didn't lose because Kessel isn't the visible leader YOU guys want him to be. We lost because COLLECTIVELY AS A TEAM. We suck at defense, Kessel is decent defensively, he back checks and is getting better defensively.

 

[masarume]

On the main board they are comparing Sundin and Kopitar and most posters seem to say Sundin > Kopitar. I reckon most posters would agree on Kopitar > Kessel so how on earth can it be Kessel = Sundin? They were about equal when it came to creating offense but then Sundin was good defensively and a leader and clutch as well. Most things Kessel aint.

I'd argue that Kopitar is better defensively but Mats was a better creator.
That and Mats has done well for over 15 years and Anze has had about 5.

 

[masarume]

Can we put this leader **** to bed? Just because a player doesn't wear a letter doesn't mean he isn't a leader. Maybe it is possible that Kessel didn't want to wear a letter? Kessel is a leader in his own right, he is the leader offensively. The guys on the team look to him for big points at key times and out of everyone on the team he is usually able to come through. DO you know how stupid some of you guys sound right now? You cannot possibly put the whole team on one players back. We didn't lose because Kessel isn't the visible leader YOU guys want him to be. We lost because COLLECTIVELY AS A TEAM. We suck at defense, Kessel is decent defensively, he back checks and is getting better defensively.

Now I'm regretting putting up that post, trying to explain myself.
I shouldn't have taken you seriously.

 

[francis246]

A lot of anger over something I never said.

I'm not pushing a 1 for 1 deal where you trade Kessel for another 1C or 1D straight up.
I also never stated that you don't need wingers to win a cup.
I even said, Hull was an important part to both of the cups he's won. So all this animosity seems unwarranted.

To address your first point, in those combos you named, I'd argue the Center was more vital to the cup win than any of the wingers. I'd also argue that their #1 defense pairing was more integral as well. Also seems a stretch calling Brown an "elite" winger.

Your second point - how can you not see the irony in that problem. Management not being patient to draft a 1C? We dealt Kessel for, 3 chances to draft a 1C. So you're saying keep Kessel, but we need more picks? I'm not sure how this is possible.

Third point - I've never indicated anywhere that another organization would or should trade their Crosby/Toews/Stamkos for Kessel. If we do deal Kessel, it would be for high draft picks that we can use to draft or develop younger players. An organization would totally give up potential assets to get their hands on an established one.

Fourth.. comment - the argument I'm making is that we don't have enough assets to win the cup. Dealing Kessel would give us a very good chance at acquiring these assets. It would also allow us to get younger so we can time the core of our team to be around the same age. Phaneuf is 29. Kessel is 26. We should be building around Rielly who's 20 when puck drops for next season.

The argument that you somehow imagined I'm putting up is collapsing, but I've never said these things that you're defending.

I'm not bashing Phil's value to the team. Again, what I'm saying is that Kessel is a great winger, but we first need to take care of some other areas before we focus on locking-down that elite winger. The Centers and Dmen are much harder to come by.

Are you kidding me? Without Patrick Kane in BOTH stanley cup finals, chicago may have never reached or won the Stanley Cup.

When Anaheim won the cup, Getzlaf was good, but Perry was better and also you factor in Gigure, Niederemyer, Pronger and that alone was the main reason why they won the cup.

I understand trading Phaneuf, but you don't trade a 26 year old franchise player who also happens to be an elite sniper. You can't replace that. There are 4 players on this team that we should be building around. Rielly, JVR, Kessel and Bernier. Those guys shouldn't be moving.

 

[Diatomic]

Can't wait for the 'is Rielly the new Salming' threada

 

[Trapper]

Are you kidding me? Without Patrick Kane in BOTH stanley cup finals, chicago may have never reached or won the Stanley Cup.

When Anaheim won the cup, Getzlaf was good, but Perry was better and also you factor in Gigure, Niederemyer, Pronger and that alone was the main reason why they won the cup.

I understand trading Phaneuf, but you don't trade a 26 year old franchise player who also happens to be an elite sniper. You can't replace that. There are 4 players on this team that we should be building around. Rielly, JVR, Kessel and Bernier. Those guys shouldn't be moving.

The best thing this organization can do, (if we up and get Ekblad), is fall to 1-2-3 next year and draft the no. 1 center we need. McDavid,Eichel,Barzal. We can get one of these players. There is still time with Kessel at 26. Otherwise what are you doing with him? Phil Kessel. The highest scoring Leaf winger of all time to play 7 playoff games. Nice epitath.
No. 1 center, Kessel,JVR,Rielly,Ekblad,Bernier.
Now were on to something. Forget Bolland and (insert whoever) to make a run at 12th-16th. That does us no good.

 

[masarume]

Are you kidding me? Without Patrick Kane in BOTH stanley cup finals, chicago may have never reached or won the Stanley Cup.

When Anaheim won the cup, Getzlaf was good, but Perry was better and also you factor in Gigure, Niederemyer, Pronger and that alone was the main reason why they won the cup.

I understand trading Phaneuf, but you don't trade a 26 year old franchise player who also happens to be an elite sniper. You can't replace that. There are 4 players on this team that we should be building around. Rielly, JVR, Kessel and Bernier. Those guys shouldn't be moving.

Again, I'm saying Toews > Kane. Not that without Kane, the Hawks would have achieved the same results. On the Ducks, I would argue that Neidermeyer was the best player, not Perry.

Regardless, this is getting silly.
Here's what we agree on: Phil is great, but we need more.
Here's what we seem to disagree on: what we have to do so we are a cup winner.
I have proposed we trade Phil to collect more assets.
What is it you are proposing? I'm very curious.

 

[francis246]

Again, I'm saying Toews > Kane. Not that without Kane, the Hawks would have achieved the same results. On the Ducks, I would argue that Neidermeyer was the best player, not Perry.

Regardless, this is getting silly.
Here's what we agree on: Phil is great, but we need more.
Here's what we seem to disagree on: what we have to do so we are a cup winner.
I have proposed we trade Phil to collect more assets.
What is it you are proposing? I'm very curious.

I agree to disagree lol. I think we need to tank next year. We don't need to trade Kessel, we just need to make our team bad enough to get like the poster above said, one of McDavid, Barzal, Eichel.

I think it's a bit extreme to have to trade Kessel. We just need to keep the picks we already have and build from there. Guys like Lupul and Franson should be moved before Kessel. Kessel should be a last resort. Other wise build around him. He's 26, same age as Toews. Kessel will probably hit his prime in the next 2-4 years. It's not too late to start drafting smart. It starts with this draft, if we can move up to get Ekblad or a center we will be well on our way. I just feel like taking Kessel away from this team is setting us back 5 or 6 years. I don't know about you but I can't handle another stretch like that. We have a good opportunity in the next 2-3 years to really rebuild with Kessel, JVR, Rielly, Bernier and our first this year and our first next year.

 

[masarume]

I agree to disagree lol. I think we need to tank next year. We don't need to trade Kessel, we just need to make our team bad enough to get like the poster above said, one of McDavid, Barzal, Eichel.

I think it's a bit extreme to have to trade Kessel. We just need to keep the picks we already have and build from there. Guys like Lupul and Franson should be moved before Kessel. Kessel should be a last resort. Other wise build around him. He's 26, same age as Toews. Kessel will probably hit his prime in the next 2-4 years. It's not too late to start drafting smart. It starts with this draft, if we can move up to get Ekblad or a center we will be well on our way. I just feel like taking Kessel away from this team is setting us back 5 or 6 years. I don't know about you but I can't handle another stretch like that. We have a good opportunity in the next 2-3 years to really rebuild with Kessel, JVR, Rielly, Bernier and our first this year and our first next year.

I'm actually aboard with the tank plan. I just figure we should go all in on the Tank. See if we can get a decent bluechip and a lottery pick next year as well (on top of our own) for Phil. Trade Dion, Franson , Lupul. Keep Kadri and Gards and let our young core emerge. But if the only difference between you plan and mine is trading Kessel, I could live with that.

 

[BlueBaron]

Kessel is a one-dimensional winger that costs his line as many scoring chances against as he creates and needs 5 other players on the ice to shelter his absolutely invisible defensive game.

What is his one dimension ? Superior playmaking or goal scoring ? Oh wait.....

 

[diceman934]

Bottom line about Sundin

He was only ever in top 10 in points once, and top 10 in goals twice and missed the playoffs half the time he was here.

those are the facts. Now for the people that want to put him at hero status, jeez, just pick someone else.

And the fact that he leads the leafs in points etc, really speaks volumes about how this team has drafted for so many years, because Sundin was a trade.

It also speaks volumes of how bad this team has sucked for 44 of the 47 years since we last won a cup.

Sundin played amazing for his country....but was just MEH here.

The Leafs made the playoffs 7 of the 12 years which is not half....

You also forgot one fact when posting your wrong versions on his Facts.....he was a first ballot HOF player who is 27th all time in NHL scoring.

Just who is putting him at hero status? I do not see anyone doing so....just putting him ahead of Kessel.....

 

[GreekLeafer]

Kessel is a one-dimensional winger that costs his line as many scoring chances against as he creates and needs 5 other players on the ice to shelter his absolutely invisible defensive game.

This may be SHOCKING to some, but Bozak is a bigger hindrance to the 1st line than Kessel is. Look at the fancy stats.

That being said, better coaching can improve the line. I just hope Randy actually changes his ways.