TSN: Is Kessel the New Sundin?

[diceman934]

Are the majority like him though? Was pavel bure(recent inductee) known for his amazing defensive play and hardness or his speed and gamebreaking shot?

I mean I'm sure a few were great defensively and won awards for it, but i'm saying it's very doubtful that the majority were known for defensive play over scoring ability, at least those that played in the 90's and beyond when the game became faster

Kessel is known for being soft and a points producing player.....and why not look to see just how many players are in the Hall that were considered soft.....not many at all. Bure was never considered soft, in fact he took checks to make plays all the time and had he been more timid he would have played longer.

I like Kessel but this thread is a joke and then have people mention HOF players in the same breath is nuts.

 

[91Stammer*]

If Kessel actually wins something as a leafs, all the double sided fan base who supports him or hates him is gonna remember him forever. If he ever wins a SC as a leafs then he will be the most valuable player in the world for us because he costed us franchise C and top 2 D.

 

[91Stammer*]

Kessel is known for being soft and a points producing player.....and why not look to see just how many players are in the Hall that were considered soft.....not many at all. Bure was never considered soft, in fact he took checks to make plays all the time and had he been more timid he would have played longer.

I like Kessel but this thread is a joke and then have people mention HOF players in the same breath is nuts.

May be you are over-thinking a bit. Remember when he crashed into the net to get a goal last year? Remember how he scored against NJD last year? He is soft but he is a beast when he thinks he has a chance to score. He will do anything to get that goal no matter what.

 

[Leafspoison*]

Some of you need to think again about Sundin being a heart and soul player....which he was not....at all.

He used his size, but always had a smile on his face after the end of each loss.

I watched his WHOLE career. He missed the playoffs half the time he was here. Does that sound like a heart and soul guy to you? Did he elevate those around him? NOPE, just collected a pay check.

Am I saying he did to have great games....no. But what I am saying is for those who actually remember the guy, he was a guy who took every 3rd game off. Went out and just skated around and called it a shift.

I am not biased here guys, I saw his entire career here and I haven't missed a leafs game since I was a kid.

He was a PPG player right? Think about it though. He had over 100 multi point games, so how many games did he not score in? How come?

The guy was a monster of a man, but did not play like it. He could have been a 1.5 ppg player if he tried.

He played as a PPG player in an era where guys were getting 150 points a season. Sundin was middle of the pack. No personal achievement awards really to speak of.

 

[Leafspoison*]

I just checked Sundins stats for his whole career.

He finished top 10 in points once. he finished top 10 in scoring twice.

He averaged top 20 in points and top 19 in goal scoring.

Not exactly an offensive dynamo when the big boys were putting up big numbers. In his season where he scored 41 goals, 15 of those goals were multi point goals. So if he was filled with heart and soul, did he perhaps leave it at home for 50 games or so?

Only one finish top 10 in points. Really pretty bad considering half his career was no hooking called more often so the bigger guys had more freedom. He was barely an average player of his time according to his stats when compared to others.

He gets so much credit because he played here for such a long time. If Kessel plays here as long, Kessel will have more goals and points easily. Kessel has already beaten his top 10 in goals and points.

 

[Cor]

Some of you need to think again about Sundin being a heart and soul player....which he was not....at all.

He used his size, but always had a smile on his face after the end of each loss.

I watched his WHOLE career. He missed the playoffs half the time he was here. Does that sound like a heart and soul guy to you? Did he elevate those around him? NOPE, just collected a pay check.

Am I saying he did to have great games....no. But what I am saying is for those who actually remember the guy, he was a guy who took every 3rd game off. Went out and just skated around and called it a shift.

I am not biased here guys, I saw his entire career here and I haven't missed a leafs game since I was a kid.

He was a PPG player right? Think about it though. He had over 100 multi point games, so how many games did he not score in? How come?

The guy was a monster of a man, but did not play like it. He could have been a 1.5 ppg player if he tried.

He played as a PPG player in an era where guys were getting 150 points a season. Sundin was middle of the pack. No personal achievement awards really to speak of.

I just checked Sundins stats for his whole career.

He finished top 10 in points once. he finished top 10 in scoring twice.

He averaged top 20 in points and top 19 in goal scoring.

Not exactly an offensive dynamo when the big boys were putting up big numbers. In his season where he scored 41 goals, 15 of those goals were multi point goals. So if he was filled with heart and soul, did he perhaps leave it at home for 50 games or so?

Only one finish top 10 in points. Really pretty bad considering half his career was no hooking called more often so the bigger guys had more freedom. He was barely an average player of his time according to his stats when compared to others.

He gets so much credit because he played here for such a long time. If Kessel plays here as long, Kessel will have more goals and points easily. Kessel has already beaten his top 10 in goals and points.

 

[-DeMo-]

May be you are over-thinking a bit. Remember when he crashed into the net to get a goal last year? Remember how he scored against NJD last year? He is soft but he is a beast when he thinks he has a chance to score. He will do anything to get that goal no matter what.

you do remember that was on a break away basically coming off the boards from the blueline and was never touched by a Devils player, he basically changed his mind last second at what he was going to do and lost his balance and fell into the net by himself.

 

[diceman934]

Some of you need to think again about Sundin being a heart and soul player....which he was not....at all.

He used his size, but always had a smile on his face after the end of each loss.

I watched his WHOLE career. He missed the playoffs half the time he was here. Does that sound like a heart and soul guy to you? Did he elevate those around him? NOPE, just collected a pay check.

Am I saying he did to have great games....no. But what I am saying is for those who actually remember the guy, he was a guy who took every 3rd game off. Went out and just skated around and called it a shift.

I am not biased here guys, I saw his entire career here and I haven't missed a leafs game since I was a kid.

He was a PPG player right? Think about it though. He had over 100 multi point games, so how many games did he not score in? How come?

The guy was a monster of a man, but did not play like it. He could have been a 1.5 ppg player if he tried.

He played as a PPG player in an era where guys were getting 150 points a season. Sundin was middle of the pack. No personal achievement awards really to speak of.

Look at some of the teams he played on when he was 20-30 pts ahead of the next best player on his team.
Here is the amount of points he was ahead of his team mates.

11 pts
34 pts
27 pts
10 pts
10 pts
21 pts
21 pts
22 pts
18 pts
19 pts

Mark Messier NHL Leadership Award...
Captain of Gold Medal team in the Olympics.
World Championships
Silver 2003 Finland
Bronze 2001 Germany
Gold 1998 Switzerland
Bronze 1994 Italy
Gold 1992 Czechoslovakia
Gold 1991 Finland
Silver 1990 Switzerland

Last point.....only one year when he played as a Leaf did anyone top 150 pts.....several years the leader was under 100 pts.

You watched very little when staring at the TV......

 

[HEAVY DUTY]

Some of you need to think again about Sundin being a heart and soul player....which he was not....at all.

He used his size, but always had a smile on his face after the end of each loss.

I watched his WHOLE career. He missed the playoffs half the time he was here. Does that sound like a heart and soul guy to you? Did he elevate those around him? NOPE, just collected a pay check.

Am I saying he did to have great games....no. But what I am saying is for those who actually remember the guy, he was a guy who took every 3rd game off. Went out and just skated around and called it a shift.

I am not biased here guys, I saw his entire career here and I haven't missed a leafs game since I was a kid.

He was a PPG player right? Think about it though. He had over 100 multi point games, so how many games did he not score in? How come?

The guy was a monster of a man, but did not play like it. He could have been a 1.5 ppg player if he tried.

He played as a PPG player in an era where guys were getting 150 points a season. Sundin was middle of the pack. No personal achievement awards really to speak of.

being a heart and soul player has nothing to do with the score sheet. and yes, sundin was a heart and soul player.

to those who claim he isn't one, should give their heads a shake.

 

[diceman934]

I just checked Sundins stats for his whole career.

He finished top 10 in points once. he finished top 10 in scoring twice.

He averaged top 20 in points and top 19 in goal scoring.

Not exactly an offensive dynamo when the big boys were putting up big numbers. In his season where he scored 41 goals, 15 of those goals were multi point goals. So if he was filled with heart and soul, did he perhaps leave it at home for 50 games or so?

Only one finish top 10 in points. Really pretty bad considering half his career was no hooking called more often so the bigger guys had more freedom. He was barely an average player of his time according to his stats when compared to others.

He gets so much credit because he played here for such a long time. If Kessel plays here as long, Kessel will have more goals and points easily. Kessel has already beaten his top 10 in goals and points.

You just checked his stats......I thought that you watched all of his games......

The bold part makes me think that you watched nothing as D man were allowed to hold and hook and run interference without a call.....meaning that it was tougher to create offense, not like now when you can not do this without getting called.

27th all time in career points (1349)

 

[The Beyonder]

I wondering how many of these people whining about having Kessel would later be whining about not having him if they get what they want and gets traded. The guy is a PPG player in this league for the past 3 seasons, and people still run down his deficiencies...yup, pretty much like Sundin. If a guy doesn't play like Wendel Clark, he's a useless player in some leaf fan's eyes. I remember so many times fans saying "You can't win with a player like Sundin", "Sundin is too soft, we need a center like Premeau", "We should strip the C off of him and put it on Roberts, because he's too soft to be a captain". Fans used to get on Sundin, I don't think fans fully came around on Mats until the years after the lockout.

Is Kessel soft? Yes. Is Kessel below average defensively? Yes. But lets not forget that this guy is one of the best scorers in the game, a ppg player, the catalyst for the leafs offence, a guy who carries whoever comes on his line, a guy that takes a lot of heat and scrutiny but still decided to stay here, and a guy who at the end of the year took responsibility for the team.

Lets not focus on what he can't do, but on what he does best. I remember this being done to Sundin; massive fan and media scrunity, and all the team did was surround him with guys Hoglund and Renberg, until they surrounded him with Roberts who was old but effective. Why don't we try and get some players around Phil that can make the team more successful instead of scrutinizing the one thing that's been consistent for the past 3 seasons.

 

[The Beyonder]

Some of you need to think again about Sundin being a heart and soul player....which he was not....at all.

Do you know that Mats Sundin has more game winning goals than the "heart and soul" players like Yzerman, Sakic, Messier, Gretzky, Mario Lemieux? Did you know only Jagr has more overtime goals than Mats? Of course he's not a heart and soul guy because he's never won cups right, because such a thing is only achieved individually? I bet the vast majority of his points are in the third period as well. He was rightfully coined with the nickname of "Mr. Third Period". I remember him almost single-handedly getting his team to the playoffs and falling 1 point short. The guy is definitely a heart and soul player, but instead of doing it with fists and hits, he did it with consistency and timely scoring. But unfortunately there are remnants of fans like you who never supported Mats and never will.

 

[Super Mega]

You just checked his stats......I thought that you watched all of his games......

The bold part makes me think that you watched nothing as D man were allowed to hold and hook and run interference without a call.....meaning that it was tougher to create offense, not like now when you can not do this without getting called.

27th all time in career points (1349)

How can you be cognisant of the bold and even debate how elite Mats was. Thats PPG for his career most of it on the leafs.

 

[Patty Lee]

It's the rest of his game that leaves it to be desired. To win the Cup we need to be able to defend, not score goals..

if you expect him to be a dedicated defensive player you will never be happy with him.

if you accept he does the job that is asked of him you'll appreciate him.

your choice I guess. But I wonder how many games did his coach reduce his ice time or sit him because he wasn't meeting expectations? His coach and you have different expectations

 

[Patty Lee]

Maybe you should check facts before posting this stuff!

Bob Gainey who won the Selke 4 times was a winger...who was not a great offensive player....in the HHOF. Lots of tough mean as hell wingers in the Hall. Including Mr Hockey!

he said not many. you listed one in Gainey. And yes of course there are others.

and Mr Hockey played in a much different era, and is an exception to most every rule of the game... thus the name Mr Hockey

 

[NiL8r87]

Maybe the comparison isn't between the players guys.

Maybe the comparison is in regards to how some of the morons in this city treat/ed both players.

Maybe the comparison is how with Sundin he was considered to have no heart, was thought to be a silent captain who couldn't lead a team and was generally under-appreciated while he was here.

Maybe that's how we seem to be treating Kessel now despite being a top 10 scorer in the league for the last few seasons.

 

[Kelly]

And you can't win a game when your best player is a liability on the ice in the defensive zone.

If Kessel was Kane, we'd be better off. Kane goes and gets the puck. Kessel doesn't. Kane's ability to get take aways, stick lift the puck and get it, and actually get in the way of shots is way different then Kessel's defensive ability.

Watch Kane actually play. Then go and watch Kessel. They have the same offensive instincts but Kane wants and gets the puck 100% more. Kessel gets the puck because everyone on his line gives it to him. Kane gets the puck because he takes it from people.

this is funny because Kessel's third in fwds on the team in take aways -- you'd almost lead me to believe that you think Kessel sits at the red line tapping his stick for a pass..

Kessel gets so much unwarranted hate, he should be the last player anybody points their finger at for how god awful this team is.

 

[pspot]

Sundin was great but a lazy player so in that way they are similar.



although Sundin for Sweden was something to see. guy was completely dominant and aggressive. I always said put a Swedish flag on his shoulder

 

[pooleboy]

I think people know how good kessel is, people also realize that we can't win a cup with him making 8mill a season.....

And he has a long way to go before sundin status, he hasn't ****ed the team over yet with "no rental player" business

 

[masarume]

this is funny because Kessel's third in fwds on the team in take aways -- you'd almost lead me to believe that you think Kessel sits at the red line tapping his stick for a pass..

Kessel gets so much unwarranted hate, he should be the last player anybody points their finger at for how god awful this team is.

I would give that title to Bernier. But I guess that's semantics. Kessel wasn't the reason for our collapse last year. But given what he's paid and his status as best player on the team, that's not a compliment. He should've been the reason why we got into the playoffs instead.

If you watch Kessel play, he's not the worst defensive player on the ice. However, he's nothing close to an asset defensively either.
The thing I don't get is, people don't expect him to be. If he's the highest paid player on our team, why shouldn't we expect that?

Do you want us to be like Washington and never win anything? Or like Pitts (Crosby), Chicago (Toews), Detroit (Datsyuk), and Boston (Bergeron) where all their best players can change a game defensively?

If he can't develop into that player, we have to ask ourselves; can we win a cup with him as our best player? Has any other team won a cup with a Kessel as their #1? If the answer is no, is he not a wasted asset on our team?

 

[francis246]

This board is a joke. I'm a Leafs fan but I read the comments and it's stupid how people assume they know everything there is to hockey and the Toronto Maple Leafs. 98% of you have no connection to any insiders or anyone in Management. God, the ones who say "oh we need to trade Kessel, we can't build a core around him omg" probably have something loose up in their head. Why would we trade our best offensive player? Players like Kessel don't grow on trees. Also your claim that he isn't a leader is invalid, you have never been in the dressing room or on the ice with him so how can you make that claim. Point of the matter is stop claiming you know everything and have realistic discussions. Kessel is here for the long haul most likely. The only thing we as fans can do is hope the Leafs learn how to draft better. We have our top wingers, we need to draft a top center. It will happen in due time.

 

[BraveCanadian]

Sundin was great but a lazy player so in that way they are similar.



although Sundin for Sweden was something to see. guy was completely dominant and aggressive. I always said put a Swedish flag on his shoulder

Yeah he really ended up having that reputation for people that actually watched him.. he had an extra notch for Sweden that he very rarely, if ever, showed as a Leaf.

 

[masarume]

This board is a joke. I'm a Leafs fan but I read the comments and it's stupid how people assume they know everything there is to hockey and the Toronto Maple Leafs. 98% of you have no connection to any insiders or anyone in Management. God, the ones who say "oh we need to trade Kessel, we can't build a core around him omg" probably have something loose up in their head. Why would we trade our best offensive player? Players like Kessel don't grow on trees. Also your claim that he isn't a leader is invalid, you have never been in the dressing room or on the ice with him so how can you make that claim. Point of the matter is stop claiming you know everything and have realistic discussions. Kessel is here for the long haul most likely. The only thing we as fans can do is hope the Leafs learn how to draft better. We have our top wingers, we need to draft a top center. It will happen in due time.

The reason to trade him, I've already previously mentioned. I can't remember a team winning the cup with a Kessel like player as their #1. I'm not saying we sell him for pennies on the dollar. It would irresponsible to not know his market value.

Ironic because we dealt two 1st and a 2nd for Kessel. At the end of the day, it's a numbers game as much as it is a Scouting game. We need picks to maximize our chances of drafting well. It's like Detroit's HÃ¥kan Andersson said, "if we knew Pavel and Henrik were going to be as good as they are, we wouldn't have waited that long to pick them."

Which makes trades for Bolland and Holland shake my head. Bernier I get because of his age and pedigree, but the rest are moves that contending team makes.

 

[masarume]

Yeah he really ended up having that reputation for people that actually watched him.. he had an extra notch for Sweden that he very rarely, if ever, showed as a Leaf.

I think he was consistently played at a great level with us but with Sweden he was elite. I'm not sure how you play with Gary Roberts and not being that A+ level but that was pretty much his only knock. This is nitpicking.

He was a great player and captain for us. Far from the reason why we didn't win a cup in his team.

 

[BraveCanadian]

I think he was consistently played at a great level with us but with Sweden he was elite. I'm not sure how you play with Gary Roberts and not being that A+ level but that was pretty much his only knock. This is nitpicking.

He was a great player and captain for us. Far from the reason why we didn't win a cup in his team.

He was definitely a great player in his own right but people were selling him as some sort of heart and soul Gary Roberts type Leaf player.

Kessel and Sundin shouldn't be mistaken for that type of player ever.