Is Jack Eichel better than Auston Matthews?

[Dache]

2nd in goals, 9th in points last year.

How is he not a 1st line player?



He was certainly the one driving the bus. Hockey is obviously a team sport so it takes more than 1 or 2 good players (see Oilers, 2015-present) but Matthews was by far the best player on the team as a rookie and if you replace him with say Laine, I don't think they make the playoffs in 2017.

That’s fair, but if you replace Marner or Nylander you miss the playoffs as well which is my point.

 

[The Winter Soldier]

It turns out we are wrong to bring up how Eichel has never made the playoffs because Matthews has not yet won a playoff series in Toronto.

I am not sure why you are quoting me? Losing 4 years in a row in the first rd in the post season playoffs is not something to hold your hat on, not unless you are trying to prop up players with such a low bar.

 

[sabremike]

I'm still waiting for your response if you think Eichel looks bad for the timing of Bylsma getting fired because of that report the day before it happened.

I'm also done explaining those other points about a hypothetical situation, so if you don't want to answer my question everyone will see you trying to avoid it.

And it was complete and utter bullshit entirely devoid of facts/context driven by garbage untalented media hacks who couldn't suck at their job any worse if they tried and lapped up by clueless fans like dogs eating their own vomit.

 

[Hockey Outsider]

Jack Eichel is -61 for plus minus for career stats, would you really want him as your top centerman?

Joe Sakic was -100 over his first five seasons. Gilbert Perreault was -75. Ron Francis was -72. Marcel Dionne was -46. Dale Hawerchuk was -45.

Evaluating a player on their plus/minus is hockey's equivalent to phrenology.

 

[Lainehasaweirdface]

We might as well wrap this thread up guys, Matthews is garbage and only paced 45+ goals for the last three years because of Marner and Nylander. Meanwhile Jack Eichel is the best player in the world by a mile simply because he has played with Sam Reinhart who is basically Jack Johnson as a forward according to Sabres fans in here.

 

[AvroArrow]

So because a team sucks it means the player does too?

I'm talking about his character and compete level, this guy quits on games when things are not going his way, bitches, whines, complains, throws fits. For that reason alone, I take Matthews. Big difference between guys that are worried about individual stats/success and team success. I never once implied Eichel sucks, anyone who says he sucks can never be taken seriously. He's an elite player, but I take Matthews over him any day of the week. Size, goal scoring, 2 way play, compete level > playmaking ability. That's what it comes down to between those 2 as of right now.

 

[Ducer]

Can we just end this with Eichel and Mathew's winning the gold medal game for Team USA vs CAN in a future olympics.

 

[The Winter Soldier]

One thing that people can agree on. Eichel has the better contract from a team perspective. 10M x 8 years. It is a bargain when you compare it to Matthews contract at 11.634M x 5 years.

 

[Ducer]

Funny how it's almost the exact number that the owner's of the team is in the red for.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

We might as well wrap this thread up guys, Matthews is garbage and only paced 45+ goals for the last three years because of Marner and Nylander. Meanwhile Jack Eichel is the best player in the world by a mile simply because he has played with Sam Reinhart who is basically Jack Johnson as a forward according to Sabres fans in here.

Hyperbolic posts filled with strawman arguments certainly add a tremendous amount to discussions like these.

 

[nbwingsfan]

I'm talking about his character and compete level, this guy quits on games when things are not going his way, bitches, whines, complains, throws fits. For that reason alone, I take Matthews. Big difference between guys that are worried about individual stats/success and team success. I never once implied Eichel sucks, anyone who says he sucks can never be taken seriously. He's an elite player, but I take Matthews over him any day of the week. Size, goal scoring, 2 way play, compete level > playmaking ability. That's what it comes down to between those 2 as of right now.

If Eichel can produce more than Matthews without trying like you say while also having the worst supporting cast in the league then imagine how myvh better he will be when he actually tries and has help

Matthews is not a good two way player, hasnt led his team to snything meaningful or played well in any elimination game, and size?? Eichel is a whole 1inch and 5pds lighter... What a difference!!

Changing Matthews to Buffalo doesnt get them in the playoffs either.

 

[Pyrophorus]

One thing that people can agree on. Eichel has the better contract from a team perspective. 10M x 8 years. It is a bargain when you compare it to Matthews contract at 11.634M x 5 years.

The better player got paid more.

 

[nbwingsfan]

The better player got paid more.

You actually think the difference between the two is $1.5M/3 years shorter? Give me a break.

 

[The Winter Soldier]

The better player got paid more.

Okay, why is Matthews that much better to be paid 1.634 more per year, at 3 years shorter in contract length. Other than goalscoring, I'd like to hear reasons why you think he is worth the far more player friendly contract.

 

[Maplebeasts]

If Eichel can produce more than Matthews without trying like you say while also having the worst supporting cast in the league then imagine how myvh better he will be when he actually tries and has help

Matthews is not a good two way player, hasnt led his team to snything meaningful or played well in any elimination game, and size?? Eichel is a whole 1inch and 5pds lighter... What a difference!!

Changing Matthews to Buffalo doesnt get them in the playoffs either.

Bolded: False. He has always had massively positive advanced stats both overall and relative to team mates and has consistently produced amongst the best defensive results on the team for forwards.

Italicized: Imagine knocking Matthews for the Leafs not winning a playoff series when in the same role Jack Eichel has not lead the Sabres anywhere other than the basement. Hockey is a team sport, not even McDavid and Draisaitl have taken their teams anywhere meaningful, yet neither get NEAR the same shit over it.

Underlined: Considering Eichel hasn't even seen a playoff game let alone an elimination game this argument is also trash.

 

[nbwingsfan]

Bolded: False. He has always had massively positive advanced stats both overall and relative to team mates and has consistently produced amongst the best defensive results on the team for forwards.

Italicized: Imagine knocking Matthews for the Leafs not winning a playoff series when in the same role Jack Eichel has not lead the Sabres anywhere other than the basement. Hockey is a team sport, not even McDavid and Draisaitl have taken their teams anywhere meaningful, yet neither get NEAR the same shit over it.

Underlined: Considering Eichel hasn't even seen a playoff game let alone an elimination game this argument is also trash.

Its not a shot at Matthews. It's responding to the poster saying Eichel is worse because he "doesnt compete and gives up" yet Matthews has also been very poor when it's mattered most. You cant say either player is some great competitor because neither player has shined when it's mattered. Eichel hasnt made the playoffs because his overall team is trash and Matthews hasnt made it past the first round because his team is trash in elimination games. If you put Matthews on Buffalo he wouldn't have sniffed the playoffs either.

 

[AvroArrow]

If Eichel can produce more than Matthews without trying like you say while also having the worst supporting cast in the league then imagine how myvh better he will be when he actually tries and has help

Matthews is not a good two way player, hasnt led his team to snything meaningful or played well in any elimination game, and size?? Eichel is a whole 1inch and 5pds lighter... What a difference!!

Changing Matthews to Buffalo doesnt get them in the playoffs either.

I don't think you're reading what i said. He doesn't try on defense, he does not play a 200ft game, he quits when his team is down, whiny attitude. He's playing with Taylor Hall now and they've looked good early on. But he has the attitude of a loser not a competitor. That is his biggest flaw.

 

[Lainehasaweirdface]

Hyperbolic posts filled with strawman arguments certainly add a tremendous amount to discussions like these.

If we're talking logic here none of that is straw-man, it's reductio ad absurdum. It basically takes the arguments Sabres fans are making to the extreme to show that they're not logical arguments.

 

[nbwingsfan]

I don't think you're reading what i said. He doesn't try on defense, he does not play a 200ft game, he quits when his team is down, whiny attitude. He's playing with Taylor Hall now and they've looked good early on. But he has the attitude of a loser not a competitor. That is his biggest flaw.

You think him "giving up" might have something to do with being the only good player on his team? If Matthews was on Buffalo we would be hearing the exact same things about him.

 

[AvroArrow]

You think him "giving up" might have something to do with being the only good player on his team? If Matthews was on Buffalo we would be hearing the exact same things about him.

He had Ryan O'Rielly on his team...and he hated that Buffalo culture so much he found a way out and won a Conn Smythe + cup. Reinhart is not a good player ? Dahlin the apparent McDavid of D-men, Risto who is apparently a #1D ? Personality/attitude is a very real thing in sports, we've seen it countless times across every single league. The good thing is he's still so young, the right coaching can probably fix that.

FWIW the Leafs were absolute garbage when Matthews arrived.

 

[sabremike]

He had Ryan O'Rielly on his team...and he hated that Buffalo culture so much he found a way out and won a Conn Smythe + cup. Reinhart is not a good player ? Dahlin the apparent McDavid of D-men, Risto who is apparently a #1D ? Personality/attitude is a very real thing in sports, we've seen it countless times across every single league. The good thing is he's still so young, the right coaching can probably fix that.

FWIW the Leafs were absolute garbage when Matthews arrived.

Some of it might have to do with the fact the team was coached by someone who was literally a mediocre high school coach (and that is not a joke, that is a verifiable fact RE: Housley).

 

[LeafsNation75]

He was certainly the one driving the bus. Hockey is obviously a team sport so it takes more than 1 or 2 good players (see Oilers, 2015-present) but Matthews was by far the best player on the team as a rookie and if you replace him with say Laine, I don't think they make the playoffs in 2017.

At least there is one rational person on here who see's the point I was trying to make.

 

[LeafsNation75]

I am not sure why you are quoting me? Losing 4 years in a row in the first rd in the post season playoffs is not something to hold your hat on, not unless you are trying to prop up players with such a low bar.

You were the one who started with all this how Matthews has not yet won a playoff series, so don't say how Eichel has never made the playoffs and I only quoted you when replying to another Leafs fan on here. So if you don't want to be quoted my advice is not to post something like that.

 

[nbwingsfan]

He had Ryan O'Rielly on his team...and he hated that Buffalo culture so much he found a way out and won a Conn Smythe + cup. Reinhart is not a good player ? Dahlin the apparent McDavid of D-men, Risto who is apparently a #1D ? Personality/attitude is a very real thing in sports, we've seen it countless times across every single league. The good thing is he's still so young, the right coaching can probably fix that.

FWIW the Leafs were absolute garbage when Matthews arrived.

No, the Leafs were absolute garbage when Matthews, Nylander,Marner and Anderson arrived. Stop saying that's all because of Matthews

Yes he had RoR on his team when he was a rookie/sophmore and nothing since. No Reinhart is a solid top 6 player and nothing more. Dahlin will be a very good player but for now is just a solid top 4D with room to grow. Who the hell calls Risto a #1D? If you think the cast Buffalo has is ANYWHERE close what Matthews has then youre living in fantasy land. You simply have to look at the discrepancy between production of Eichel and everyone else, he dominates his teammates... Something Matthews hasnt done.

Its actually funny you bring up RoR. Before he was traded to STL he was considered everything you just called Eichel. Selfish, lazy, quitter, etc. The second he gets traded away from a toxic losing culture (which dont even try to say is Eichels fault) he turns into a hard working, leader, captain, conn Smythe winning #1C everyone wants.

As I said earlier, this "Eichel is a loser" attitude will change the second Buffalo learns to built a solid team or Eichel gets traded from that toxic environment. Also as said earlier, Buffalo would have the same results if Matthews and Eichel traded places and Matthews would be considered the loser.

 

[LeafsNation75]

Its not a shot at Matthews. It's responding to the poster saying Eichel is worse because he "doesnt compete and gives up" yet Matthews has also been very poor when it's mattered most.

Yes Matthews might have not shown up on the score sheet when Toronto got eliminated by Boston in 2018 and 2019 in those Game 7's.

However in the 2019 series he was the Leafs best player and he wasn't the reason they lost. Plus when he was limited to just 18:48 of ice time despite the Leafs only being down 3-1 for the majority of that 3rd period, Mike Babcock should be blamed for not giving him more ice time in a critical game like that.

Also when they got eliminated by Washington in Game 6 during the 2017 playoffs, Matthews was the only Maple Leafs player that night who scored this goal in the 3rd period giving them a 1-0 lead. So it wasn't his fault that they lost and he showed up when it mattered most.