Is it winning or money that counts?

[Buds17]

Both?

The Nylander (AAV) and Matthews (not enough term) contracts weren't quite what I expected/hoped. Can't say for certain whether different contracts would result in a Cup, or that the current contracts definitely rule out the possibility though. Winning isn't ever going to be easy. For a variety of different reasons.

 

[egd27]

I'm not saying for a minute that Matthews/Nylander took team friendly deals. But can anyone honestly say they don't think either guy could have gotten more on the open market? They took fair deals relative to their ability.

Well technically there is no open market for RFA's aside from an offer sheet.

Matthews never got that far, and Nylander never got one to his liking, so IMO I don't believe you can definitively say they would have gotten more from another team.

 

[nuck]

I'm just going to put this out there: Rielly and Kadri signed very team-friendly deals. Tavares did as well, leaving many millions on the table. I still believe Marner will sign at a modest discount. When people debate who the Captain should be, they should take this into consideration.

Rielly and Kadri signed team friendly mostly because they weren't that established yet. There was a gambling element there for the club that isn't there for the current guys. KD is all about setting new benchmarks so I don't see him putting the brakes on MM. The discount will maybe be that Mitch doesn't sign for #1 C money which he shouldn't get anyway. I have no faith in Dubas to even manage a market neutral deal.

 

[moon111]

I think Babcock has an opinion on how to win hockey and what type of roster it take to do so.

Which Leaf goalie holds the Leaf's individual record (minimum 500 shots against) for save percentage?
-Curtis McElhinney.

I think Babcock is pissed to be handed Garrett Sparks. And Babcock won't 'sabotage' him, but he won't
protect him either. Could be wrong, but think he's gave Sparks the more difficult team to fact on the
2nd night of a back-to-back before? Think there's an element of throwing him to the wolves to show
his General Manager he made the wrong decision.

I wonder if Nylander, now that he's appeared all flashy and signed his contract, is actually ready to
really listen to Babcock's preaching and start taking his defensive learning assignments more.
Or is Babcock once again showing his GM made a mistake and showcasing what Nylander can do
on his own, which is only slightly above Connor Brown numbers.

With Matthews, really looks like Babcock is not protecting him at all. While Marleau, Johnsson,
Moore, Ennis, Kapanen, or Nylander might be good offensively, there's that missing element
of a good hard-nosed player with a keen sense of defensive responsibilities. There really isn't
options of attack, stalemate, or defend on any of Matthew's lines this season. It's attack in all
circumstances. It's all they know. They're only looking good when trailing because it allows
the game to match their style rather then them making their style match the game. Matthews
has been given the reins to his destiny by Babcock now and in return Matthews has been on
for 66 goals against in 59 games and having the worst +/- of any forward. Matthews is getting
paid the big bucks, so let's see him earn it. Start playing to win, not just score.

 

[HamiltonNHL]

Most players never hold Lord Stanley so the money is key.

There are teams that want to win and are a tight group like Tampa and Boston.

Nylander makes more than Pastrnak. Talk about a huge cap disadvantage.

 

[Trapper]

Money.
Then winning.
And finally winning money.

 

[HamiltonNHL]

I think Babcock has an opinion on how to win hockey and what type of roster it take to do so.

Which Leaf goalie holds the Leaf's individual record (minimum 500 shots against) for save percentage?
-Curtis McElhinney.

I think Babcock is pissed to be handed Garrett Sparks. And Babcock won't 'sabotage' him, but he won't
protect him either. Could be wrong, but think he's gave Sparks the more difficult team to fact on the
2nd night of a back-to-back before? Think there's an element of throwing him to the wolves to show
his General Manager he made the wrong decision.

I wonder if Nylander, now that he's appeared all flashy and signed his contract, is actually ready to
really listen to Babcock's preaching and start taking his defensive learning assignments more.
Or is Babcock once again showing his GM made a mistake and showcasing what Nylander can do
on his own, which is only slightly above Connor Brown numbers.

With Matthews, really looks like Babcock is not protecting him at all. While Marleau, Johnsson,
Moore, Ennis, Kapanen, or Nylander might be good offensively, there's that missing element
of a good hard-nosed player with a keen sense of defensive responsibilities. There really isn't
options of attack, stalemate, or defend on any of Matthew's lines this season. It's attack in all
circumstances. It's all they know. They're only looking good when trailing because it allows
the game to match their style rather then them making their style match the game. Matthews
has been given the reins to his destiny by Babcock now and in return Matthews has been on
for 66 goals against in 59 games and having the worst +/- of any forward. Matthews is getting
paid the big bucks, so let's see him earn it. Start playing to win, not just score.

Nylander + Matthews have done nothing. Matthews line has been stacked lately

 

[Buds17]

Kadri and Rielly didn’t really leave money on the table though. Neither guy at the time they signed their contracts had the case for big money.

The AAV on the contracts were (more than?) fair for the players, but Kadri and Rielly did have four and two UFA years respectively bought with the deals.

 

[hotpaws]

You didn't answer the question.

It's negative because it's antagonistic. You're one post away from calling them "Dubas fanboys" or "apologists". We all know how you operate.

So I'll ask again: when was the last time you said something positive around here? Think about it.

it was not a negative or a positive post , it's simply a statement of fact

and i'm neither a positive or negative poster , i simply just share my opinions and it's the self proclaimed positive posters who are in fact the most negative , they just have a pecking order

for example , there was always a small group critical of Babs coaching but this year Dubas is the GM and he's above Babs on the sacred cow list so the positive posters are starting to pile on Babs to defend KD

-so if i join in the Babs bash i'm being positive
-but if i don't completely blame Babs for everything but split the blame between him and the Dube i'm being negative

so too answer your question i do have many positive posts , unfortunately it just depends on how you see things

 

[egd27]

and i'm neither a positive or negative poster , i simply just share my opinions and it's the self proclaimed positive posters who are in fact the most negative , they just have a pecking order

With all due respect, that would not be my perception of your posting history. Perhaps you are being factual, but there are both positive and negative facts that can be used, and I don't recall reading many positive facts in your posts.

 

[BoredBrandonPridham]

Tavares, Nylander, Matthews, and soon Marner will have very healthy salaries playing for the Toronto Maple Leafs. Every single one of them could live quite comfortably at half the salaries that they have, and will negotiate for.

Certainly, with proper financial planning and investment, even their families would likely become comfortable for generations with lesser salaries than those being given to these athletes recently.

I think this is true for dozens of other players around the league including McDavid, Tavares, Toews, Kane, and Eichel etc.

Now, because Nyalnder, Matthews, and soon Marner, have chosen to maximize their salary, and with the signing of Tavares, the Leafs will have to trade, or, let some very talented players walk in free agency. Losing this talent reduces the ability for the team to win a Stanley Cup in the short and long term IMHO.

The idea that winning is what really matters, and that the money is a nice bonus, is a total load of bunk IMHO. I'm not buying that winning the Cup comes first and foremost in the minds of any of these greedy young kids.

Money is everything, winning the Stanley Cup is just a very minor consideration now.

Who's greedy, the people that have worked hard enough to become among the world's elite at something they do wanting to make an equivalent amount of money from that that others do, and who typically give a lot back to the community in exchange, or the fan that wants them to take less money because the fan themself is not benefiting personally from that salary, while that money will otherwise sit in a corporation bank account and probably be invested into something like pop tarts or coca-cola. I think it's a more worthwhile question to ponder than the OP, tbh.

 

[sxvnert]

I wonder if Nylander, now that he's appeared all flashy and signed his contract, is actually ready to
really listen to Babcock's preaching and start taking his defensive learning assignments more.

Nylander wants to play center and the leafs should make that happen next season.

1) Matthews
2) Tavares
3) Nylander

 

[RLF]

Well technically there is no open market for RFA's aside from an offer sheet.

Matthews never got that far, and Nylander never got one to his liking, so IMO I don't believe you can definitively say they would have gotten more from another team.

It was rumoured that Nylander did not receive any offers from other teams because they would not reach his ask either. Not sure if true, but you would think if someone was willing to give the $8M rumoured ask, he would have signed it.

 

[hotpaws]

With all due respect, that would not be my perception of your posting history. Perhaps you are being factual, but there are both positive and negative facts that can be used, and I don't recall reading many positive facts in your posts.

and you're entitled to your opinion but like i said , depending on your point of view my posts can be considered positive or negative

 

[Pookie]

I've said it a few times before.... but those contracts created problems in the dressing room.

At the beginning of the season, this team seemed to be having fun and had a very positive overall atmosphere. Sure, Nylander was sitting out. But nobody really knew the specifics for why. There was a very clear "team first" mentality.

Then Nylanders contract was signed, and it was higher than league wide comparables (especially when consideriing ufa years eaten up). The team noticeably slowed down after that contract. Then Matthews signed his heavily inflated contract. And things really changed. The team is barely .500 since the Matthews contract rumours started.

And I genuinely believe it changed things dramatically. Remember, the overpayments to Matthews and Nylander means other leaf players will have to take less or get moved. So there was no longer a "team first" mentality. It was every man for himself. And it's shown on the ice.

Compare that to Tampa, where all of the players take discounts. It's created a "team first" mentality. To the point where the team shows WAY more effort in a game against the leafs, even though they'd already secured 1st overall in the league, and the leafs were fighting for home ice advantage.

So, yeah. There are locker room problems as a result of these overpayments. It's destroyed the "team first" culture that we saw in October and November.

If that’s true... was the Nylander signing the ball that dropped?

Or the Tavares one?

Or was it Shanahan setting up the narrative?

Or combination thereof?

 

[nsleaf]

All pro athletes are over paid and pretty sure they won't play for nothing but just because they demand high contracts doesn't mean they don't want to win. If money was more important than winning, then all pro athletes are just in it for the buck and I find that hard to beleive. I don't blame a player for not taking the "team friendly" discount, why should they?
The PA and the NHL made this bed and both seem quite happy to sleep in it.

 

[Throw More Waffles]

If that’s true... was the Nylander signing the ball that dropped?

Or the Tavares one?

Or was it Shanahan setting up the narrative?

Or combination thereof?

I'd say the Nylander contract ruffled feathers, and the Matthews contract was the slam dunk.
It's all just speculation. I'm not claiming it's anything more than that.

 

[Duke Silver]

My God man...the $14M figure is from Mathews agents themselves. They said that due to the teams cap issues for next year they couldn't do an 8yr contract because it would have been over 14M. Do you even pay attention to stuff that his agents and Dubas say? You must be in the Mathews deal was a team friendly deal camp.

Now let's not start shoehorning people into boxes based on their arguments. First step towards a breakdown in civility. Breathe.

At no point did Matthews' agents or Dubas say that. Some media types speculated that an 8-year deal would have been in the $13.5M range, but that hasn't been corroborated by any of the parties involved in the negotiations, so it would be best if you stopped saying that as if it's fact.

You also didn't address my concerns with you saying Matthews conspired with Nylander on his hold-out. What evidence is there of that?

 

[Duke Silver]

it was not a negative or a positive post , it's simply a statement of fact

and i'm neither a positive or negative poster , i simply just share my opinions and it's the self proclaimed positive posters who are in fact the most negative , they just have a pecking order

for example , there was always a small group critical of Babs coaching but this year Dubas is the GM and he's above Babs on the sacred cow list so the positive posters are starting to pile on Babs to defend KD

-so if i join in the Babs bash i'm being positive
-but if i don't completely blame Babs for everything but split the blame between him and the Dube i'm being negative

so too answer your question i do have many positive posts , unfortunately it just depends on how you see things

Ahh yes, you against the world again.

 

[egd27]

and you're entitled to your opinion but like i said , depending on your point of view my posts can be considered positive or negative

ok...i suppose one's point of view could determine that.

 

[usernamezrhardtodo]

Now let's not start shoehorning people into boxes based on their arguments. First step towards a breakdown in civility. Breathe.

At no point did Matthews' agents or Dubas say that. Some media types speculated that an 8-year deal would have been in the $13.5M range, but that hasn't been corroborated by any of the parties involved in the negotiations, so it would be best if you stopped saying that as if it's fact.

You also didn't address my concerns with you saying Matthews conspired with Nylander on his hold-out. What evidence is there of that?

Ok...I said that "maybe" Willy knew that Mathews was looking for big bucks $13.5-14m (if that makes you happy) and figured he should not take some sweetheart deal for the team. Is that really making such a crazy hypothesis? You refuse to see that many pundits say that the reason they "had" to go shorter on Mathews term was because the couldn't afford his 8yr contract value of $14M (or 13.5M according to you) and thus came up with a friendlier option of lowering the term to 5yrs at $11.65.

If you think that Mathews 3 UFA years were going to be bought for only 2M more per season...what can I say.

 

[The Beyonder]

The reality is both. Players want to get paid but that doesn't mean they don't want to win. Ultimately, winning isn't guaranteed and loyalty doesn't mean squat in professional sports. I'm pretty sure this is something the agents ram into their heads. Why shouldn't players want both? Shanny was trying to sell a pipe dream.

 

[FlareKnight]

The reality is both. Players want to get paid but that doesn't mean they don't want to win. Ultimately, winning isn't guaranteed and loyalty doesn't mean squat in professional sports. I'm pretty sure this is something the agents ram into their heads. Why shouldn't players want both? Shanny was trying to sell a pipe dream.

I think wanting both is the pipe dream. Take as much money as they can and they confusingly wonder why their useful teammates have to be traded because they aren't affordable.

 

[IPS]

Money.

If it don't make dollars, it don't make sense.

 

[IPS]

I've said it a few times before.... but those contracts created problems in the dressing room.

At the beginning of the season, this team seemed to be having fun and had a very positive overall atmosphere. Sure, Nylander was sitting out. But nobody really knew the specifics for why. There was a very clear "team first" mentality.

Then Nylanders contract was signed, and it was higher than league wide comparables (especially when consideriing ufa years eaten up). The team noticeably slowed down after that contract. Then Matthews signed his heavily inflated contract. And things really changed. The team is barely .500 since the Matthews contract rumours started.

And I genuinely believe it changed things dramatically. Remember, the overpayments to Matthews and Nylander means other leaf players will have to take less or get moved. So there was no longer a "team first" mentality. It was every man for himself. And it's shown on the ice.

Compare that to Tampa, where all of the players take discounts. It's created a "team first" mentality. To the point where the team shows WAY more effort in a game against the leafs, even though they'd already secured 1st overall in the league, and the leafs were fighting for home ice advantage.

So, yeah. There are locker room problems as a result of these overpayments. It's destroyed the "team first" culture that we saw in October and November.

I don't mean to sound rude by saying this but I think you're sincerely misinformed on how players perceive their teammates seeking big pay-days.