Is it winning or money that counts?

[Al14]

Tavares, Nylander, Matthews, and soon Marner will have very healthy salaries playing for the Toronto Maple Leafs. Every single one of them could live quite comfortably at half the salaries that they have, and will negotiate for.

Certainly, with proper financial planning and investment, even their families would likely become comfortable for generations with lesser salaries than those being given to these athletes recently.

I think this is true for dozens of other players around the league including McDavid, Tavares, Toews, Kane, and Eichel etc.

Now, because Nyalnder, Matthews, and soon Marner, have chosen to maximize their salary, and with the signing of Tavares, the Leafs will have to trade, or, let some very talented players walk in free agency. Losing this talent reduces the ability for the team to win a Stanley Cup in the short and long term IMHO.

The idea that winning is what really matters, and that the money is a nice bonus, is a total load of bunk IMHO. I'm not buying that winning the Cup comes first and foremost in the minds of any of these greedy young kids.

Money is everything, winning the Stanley Cup is just a very minor consideration now.

Click to read more...

 

[56 Years No Cup]

Don't know if I'm this cynical. Yet.

 

[Eternal Leaf]

I'd agree if the cap % was locked for the duration of a contract.

For example, Matthews will make approximately 13-14% next season. However, this percentage will continue to drop as each season passes.

With a rising cap, most young players lose out (relatively speaking) even if they "maximize" their contract.

 

[hotpaws]

according to the Leaf "true fans" Tavares/Mathews/Nylander were all signed to team friendly deals so i'm guessing they put winning ahead of money since they all took discounts

 

[Throw More Waffles]

I've said it a few times before.... but those contracts created problems in the dressing room.

At the beginning of the season, this team seemed to be having fun and had a very positive overall atmosphere. Sure, Nylander was sitting out. But nobody really knew the specifics for why. There was a very clear "team first" mentality.

Then Nylanders contract was signed, and it was higher than league wide comparables (especially when consideriing ufa years eaten up). The team noticeably slowed down after that contract. Then Matthews signed his heavily inflated contract. And things really changed. The team is barely .500 since the Matthews contract rumours started.

And I genuinely believe it changed things dramatically. Remember, the overpayments to Matthews and Nylander means other leaf players will have to take less or get moved. So there was no longer a "team first" mentality. It was every man for himself. And it's shown on the ice.

Compare that to Tampa, where all of the players take discounts. It's created a "team first" mentality. To the point where the team shows WAY more effort in a game against the leafs, even though they'd already secured 1st overall in the league, and the leafs were fighting for home ice advantage.

So, yeah. There are locker room problems as a result of these overpayments. It's destroyed the "team first" culture that we saw in October and November.

 

[Menzinger]

I’d say money has always been a big motivator for most players, the only things that change are contract trends. I don’t think the current group of players is any more or less “greedy” than any other generation

The league’s owners have always been the worst when it comes to greed regardless.

 

[dubplatepressure]

Don't know if I'm this cynical. Yet.

I'm in this boat.

 

[Matthews34]

according to the Leaf "true fans" Tavares/Mathews/Nylander were all signed to team friendly deals so i'm guessing they put winning ahead of money since they all took discounts

What kind crazy talk nonsense is that???

 

[Throw More Waffles]

What kind crazy talk nonsense is that???

There are quite a few fans that post here that claim that the Nylander and Matthews contracts were "team friendly" deals. I know that sounds made up and impossible. But it's true.

 

[Rogue]

I am so pissed that Tampa players seem to value the Cup more than money!!!
While we all are so greedy....

 

[hotpaws]

There are quite a few fans that post here that claim that the Nylander and Matthews contracts were "team friendly" deals. I know that sounds made up and impossible. But it's true.

yup and as long as Marner signs for less than the full 20% allowed under the cba they'll be saying the Dube also signed him to a team friendly deal and is a genius

 

[Matthews34]

There are quite a few fans that post here that claim that the Nylander and Matthews contracts were "team friendly" deals. I know that sounds made up and impossible. But it's true.

My God man! There’s blue coloured glass and then I guess there’s these people, holocaust deniers, the world is flat crowd .... It’s mind boggling.

 

[CelticDruid]

My God man! There’s blue coloured glass and then I guess there’s these people, holocaust deniers, the world is flat crowd .... It’s mind boggling.

Really! Did these posters actually say that or are you just flatulating out of your forehead? Or are you being sarcastic?

 

[Throw More Waffles]

yup and as long as Marner signs for less than the full 20% allowed under the cba they'll be saying the Dube also signed him to a team friendly deal and is a genius

There is absolutely NO reason why Marner should make even a penny more than players like Rantanen, Aho, and Point.
We'll have DIRECT comparables this time. Everyone was able to weazle their way around the Nylander and Matthews contracts, because the comparables weren't as cut and dry. This time the ARE. No excuses. NO god damn excuses. If Marner gets even a CHRISTMAS BONUS higher than Rantanen, Aho, and Point, we'll know just how bad Dubas is at his job.

 

[Throw More Waffles]

Really! Did these posters actually say that or are you just flatulating out of your forehead? Or are you being sarcastic?

I personally think it's a more rational argument to claim the earth is flat than to claim Matthews and Nylander signed reasonable contracts.

 

[Al14]

Don't know if I'm this cynical. Yet.

What will it take for you to become more cynical?

Another 1st round exit?
Losing secondary support players like Kapanen and Johnsson?
Will there be any money to sign Dermott when his ELC is up?
Unable to afford to add any experienced top 4 defense help next season without trading anyone?
Unable to afford to re-sign Gardiner, Muzzin, and, even Kadri, Andersen, and Rielly, when they are due new contracts?

 

[usernamezrhardtodo]

I've said it a few times before.... but those contracts created problems in the dressing room.

At the beginning of the season, this team seemed to be having fun and had a very positive overall atmosphere. Sure, Nylander was sitting out. But nobody really knew the specifics for why. There was a very clear "team first" mentality.

Then Nylanders contract was signed, and it was higher than league wide comparables (especially when consideriing ufa years eaten up). The team noticeably slowed down after that contract. Then Matthews signed his heavily inflated contract. And things really changed. The team is barely .500 since the Matthews contract rumours started.

And I genuinely believe it changed things dramatically. Remember, the overpayments to Matthews and Nylander means other leaf players will have to take less or get moved. So there was no longer a "team first" mentality. It was every man for himself. And it's shown on the ice.

Compare that to Tampa, where all of the players take discounts. It's created a "team first" mentality. To the point where the team shows WAY more effort in a game against the leafs, even though they'd already secured 1st overall in the league, and the leafs were fighting for home ice advantage.

So, yeah. There are locker room problems as a result of these overpayments. It's destroyed the "team first" culture that we saw in October and November.

I agree 1000% on this take. If you're Kadri or Reilly...what the hell are you thinking right now? You left money on the table and Willy and Mathews just walked by and said thanks for that and filled their pockets. It is going to kill the team. people are wondering why Kadri is no longer Kadri this year with his "gritty" play...well I think I know why. Why should he kill his body for almost 1/3 of Mathews salary and be told he is so important to the team...really?

All of those other teams that people talk about like Pitts, LA and Chicago actually WON SOMETHING before everyone got bloated deals...so it was a thank you in a sense. They did not get paid before (Malkin and Crosby kind of did before winning cups 2+3) they won a cup. Here we are paying guys like they had won awards and cups. This will kill the team going forward. The morale has got to be pretty low because of this. And, you can't blame Marner for wanting to get paid now that everyone else has his share of the pie. Not one bit.

 

[56 Years No Cup]

I've said it a few times before.... but those contracts created problems in the dressing room.

At the beginning of the season, this team seemed to be having fun and had a very positive overall atmosphere. Sure, Nylander was sitting out. But nobody really knew the specifics for why. There was a very clear "team first" mentality.

Then Nylanders contract was signed, and it was higher than league wide comparables (especially when consideriing ufa years eaten up). The team noticeably slowed down after that contract. Then Matthews signed his heavily inflated contract. And things really changed. The team is barely .500 since the Matthews contract rumours started.

And I genuinely believe it changed things dramatically. Remember, the overpayments to Matthews and Nylander means other leaf players will have to take less or get moved. So there was no longer a "team first" mentality. It was every man for himself. And it's shown on the ice.

Compare that to Tampa, where all of the players take discounts. It's created a "team first" mentality. To the point where the team shows WAY more effort in a game against the leafs, even though they'd already secured 1st overall in the league, and the leafs were fighting for home ice advantage.

So, yeah. There are locker room problems as a result of these overpayments. It's destroyed the "team first" culture that we saw in October and November.

I tend to agree with this. Something is afoot for sure.

 

[Menzinger]

I agree 1000% on this take. If you're Kadri or Reilly...what the hell are you thinking right now? You left money on the table and Willy and Mathews just walked by and said thanks for that and filled their pockets. It is going to kill the team. people are wondering why Kadri is no longer Kadri this year with his "gritty" play...well I think I know why. Why should he kill his body for almost 1/3 of Mathews salary and be told he is so important to the team...really?

All of those other teams that people talk about like Pitts, LA and Chicago actually WON SOMETHING before everyone got bloated deals...so it was a thank you in a sense. They did not get paid before (Malkin and Crosby kind of did before winning cups 2+3) they won a cup. Here we are paying guys like they had won awards and cups. This will kill the team going forward. The morale has got to be pretty low because of this. And, you can't blame Marner for wanting to get paid now that everyone else has his share of the pie. Not one bit.

Kadri and Rielly didn’t really leave money on the table though. Neither guy at the time they signed their contracts had the case for big money.

 

[56 Years No Cup]

What will it take for you to become more cynical?

Another 1st round exit?
Losing secondary support players like Kapanen and Johnsson?
Unable to afford to add any experienced top 4 defense help next season without trading anyone?
Unable to afford to re-sign Gardiner, Muzzin, and, even Kadri, Andersen, and Rielly, when they are due new contracts?

Basically, yes. I'm not far away.

 

[Al14]

I agree 1000% on this take. If you're Kadri or Reilly...what the hell are you thinking right now? You left money on the table and Willy and Mathews just walked by and said thanks for that and filled their pockets. It is going to kill the team. people are wondering why Kadri is no longer Kadri this year with his "gritty" play...well I think I know why. Why should he kill his body for almost 1/3 of Mathews salary and be told he is so important to the team...really?

All of those other teams that people talk about like Pitts, LA and Chicago actually WON SOMETHING before everyone got bloated deals...so it was a thank you in a sense. They did not get paid before (Malkin and Crosby kind of did before winning cups 2+3) they won a cup. Here we are paying guys like they had won awards and cups. This will kill the team going forward. The morale has got to be pretty low because of this. And, you can't blame Marner for wanting to get paid now that everyone else has his share of the pie. Not one bit.

Exactly! Nylander, Matthews, and Marner haven't even won a playoff round, and have, or will be given, a King's ransom. At least Tavares supposedly left money on the table, and, has toiled hard in the NHL for the hapless Islanders.

 

[PromisedLand]

If we look around the league which is a salary cap league most of the leafs competitors (ex: tampa, even boston) have their players locked in at decent cap hits so that they can ice a competitive roster

Now lets follow sequence of events:

• - Shanny says to ice a competitive roster they would be looking for the young leaders to give some type of discount
• - Nylander holds out, Matthews signs for 5 year term at a very healthy cap%; soon to be Marner as well.
• - these players got paid money without showing anything of "substance" that can be relied upon
• - GM of the team gave these contracts and gambled that these players would be "GOOD" in the future

I don't buy the cap% argument for following reasons:

• - cap% that was signed by Crosby, Malkin, Toews, Kane etc... by that time they had already accomplished signficant feats in NHL career i.e. 100 pt seasons, stanley cup final, deep playoff runs or cup(s).

• - another reason I don't buy the cap% argument is that sure the cap% will decline IF cap rises in future; but with that there are other RFAs (or UFAs) to sign. Ex: Johnsson, Kapanen, Dermott, (who will be RFAs in near future).

• - Players that take significant portion of cap% have to compensate for the other roster moves that were made to accommodate their salary cap hits - if they don't then that means the GM effed up BIG TIME by gambling on the future

In conclusion; we as fans want to maximize win%; players want to maximize the salary%

the question then is -> Starting next season when the huge cap% start on the cap; is the win% going to increase? Are the performances going to get better;

i.e. not just putting up the points BUT ALSO making sure that they play well defensively to keep puck out of our net;

OR

are the juvenile fans going to blame the coaching and other players (ex: Hainsey, Brown, Hyman, Kadri etc...) to shelter the so called high cap% players as they are either:

• - held back by the coach (lol so freakin' stupid this statement)
• - they need better wingers because the current wingers aren't good enough (ex: Johnsson and Kappy weren't good enough for Matthews once Matthews' production went down and a lot of bitching and moaning was going on).
• - oh Nylander is still getting his legs under him; ohhh Nylander is so good at zone entries; that CORSI blah blah blah f***ING blahl 7 AAV is not just for corsi and zone entries; that being paid to produce nubers
• - next season when Matthews makes 11.634 cap hit is he going to be good enough to carry players on his line? or does he still need help and a constant bitching and moaning from posters here about how Matthews is being held back?

So in the end does winning matter or salary?

My take:
True fans: Win% matter more than anything; they will not try to justify any contract as long as the team wins no issue; and if team loses then they will call out the big contract players

Fanboys (matthews, nylander, dubas): they will try to justify the contract at the expense of the team; and blame everything and everybody else except the player(s) making high cap%

Players: Well it depends. To Tavares winning mattered more than $$$ so he took the pay cut that was offered by both Sharks and NYI

for the younger players who demanded higher salaries and the GM obliged; are they good enough to carry mediocre players on their line as a consequence of their high cap% in the salary cap world? or are they going to say "I did my best"

to be seen this upcoming playoffs.....

 

[Menzinger]

according to the Leaf "true fans" Tavares/Mathews/Nylander were all signed to team friendly deals so i'm guessing they put winning ahead of money since they all took discounts

I challenge you to link to a single post that claims all three were team friendly deal.

Saying those deals were market value or fair isn’t that.

 

[usernamezrhardtodo]

Kadri and Rielly didn’t really leave money on the table though. Neither guy at the time they signed their contracts had the case for big money.

They could have played it out on a shorter term deal but were probably convinced that EVERYONE was going to take less and that we would be a powerhouse in the future. Kadri was going through how many off seasons with the threat of arbitration ...so he cared about money for sure. I doubt he was stupid and signed that deal coming off his worst season because he had little faith in himself going forward. I think they both signed those deals because they got on the LOU bandwagon about team first. Now, I betcha they regret it.

 

[Al14]

I tend to agree with this. Something is afoot for sure.

The rest of the team are leaving it up to the 'me three' to carry the team. They are proving their point very well.

Ehxibit A: Leafs lose 6-2 to the Ottawa Senators!