Is It Time for a Norris Trophy AND a "Best Offensive Defenseman Trophy"?

[jw2]

All individual awards should be eliminated, it's a team game. Players don't care, coaches don't care, teams dont care. I'm under the assumption fans care for some bizarre reason

Ottawa fans care. You only see them when someone brings up the Norris trophy.

 

[Bubba88]

Norris has long been about points, to be honest. Look back on its history.

This whole "let's make a Paul Coffey Award" crap? It's essentially fans saying "Aw man this Karlsson guy is going to win a bunch of Norrises in the next 10 years, let's make a brand new trophy just for him so he can win that, and the defenseman that I like then has a chance to win the trophy with actual significance!"

It's laughable. Sorry, rest of the league, that a Senator is for once going to win an individual award multiple times.

Karlsson is revolutionizing the position, and his Norris nomination is proof of it.

I like Keith and wouldn't trade him for any other DMen. He is the reigning Norris trophy winner.

I'd like a 2nd Award for the highest scoring D.
Karlsson is a great offensiv D, but all around the Play in his own Zone still has room for improvement.

 

[NightmanCometh]

Norris has long been about points, to be honest. Look back on its history.

This whole "let's make a Paul Coffey Award" crap? It's essentially fans saying "Aw man this Karlsson guy is going to win a bunch of Norrises in the next 10 years, let's make a brand new trophy just for him so he can win that, and the defenseman that I like then has a chance to win the trophy with actual significance!"

It's laughable. Sorry, rest of the league, that a Senator is for once going to win an individual award multiple times.

Karlsson is revolutionizing the position, and his Norris nomination is proof of it.

I think a guy by the name of Bobby Orr already took care of that part about 40 years ago.

 

[Man Rocket]

Karlsson is a great defenseman who controls the game. He is one of the best players in the league. What more does he have to do? His defense is very good and his offense is among the best. Most don't watch him play and can't appreciate his skill level. He takes chances other Dmen only wish they could. That's what makes him one of the best skilled dmen in the league. Suddan is as traditional as they come and is good, just not Karlsson good.

no, its really not. he is below average defensively, not terrible, but not very good either

 

[Stylizer1]

I don't know if Karlsson is revolutionizing the position. There have been defensemen who played equally/more effective offense. He's just playing up to his strengths and there is not a single D in the world who can skate/stick handle like Karlsson can. I bet most of the defensemen would play the same way if the physically could.

I think Sens deserve to be happy about Karlsson and his spectacular play. It took a while for Erik to win me over (mainly due to the love/hate relationship Finns have about Swedish players ) But dude is the real deal. He's going the be one of the best D's in the world for a long time.

Sweden can go suck it though! Lidstrom, Slaming and now Karlsson!!!

Karlsson is the Selanne of defense.

 

[Frk It]

Yes, it is has become a joke. It's just basically the Art Ross for d man. If it went to best overall d man Weber and Pieterangelo would have several.

 

[Moops]

I'm tired of Subban and Karlsson winning the Norris. They are not the best d-men. Drew Doughty and Shea Weber are IMO, but regardless, the best two-way defensemen will never be recognized is its always about points. And it usually is.

The best defensive players will always have lots of points.

 

[Willy Stylez]

The Norris trophy should be voted on by the players on who the best player is at playing defense, meaning the player that is hardest to beat, best in the corners and the toughest in the crease and the best blocker etc.

The Norris is somewhat a joke, if they want a defensive d man award I'm all for it. Karlsson is a great player and probably the best offensive dman in the league, and Subban is good too. Now Sens and Habs fans can take that with them and we can actually discuss a trophy that goes to D-men who are the best at defending which is what the trophy should be about in the first place.

Points should go out the window entirely, its about playing defense.

Whaat?

 

[JFG]

I think they should change the criteria to:

"The best player who plays the postion defenseman"

Then we wouldn't have to hear all the whining about "BUT ALLROUND! THAT MEANS HE MUST BE THE BEST DEFENSIVELY BUT NOT THE BEST OFFENSIVELY!!"

 

[DrunkUncleDenis]

I think a guy by the name of Bobby Orr already took care of that part about 40 years ago.

Okay, fair enough.

Bobby Orr:

“I watch the Senators often,” said Orr, who turns 64 Tuesday and is president of the Orr Hockey Group that represents Jason Spezza. “I see a lot (in Karlsson). (Just) the way this kid skates. There’s nothing like a powerful skater. You can go back over the years: Coffey, (Bourque), Potvin ... these guys could motor. They had great speed.

“This kid has wonderful speed. Great, great hockey sense. He’s not big at all. Two games ago I looked at him and I thought, ‘Holy crap, he looks like a teenager,’ or maybe it’s me getting old. He’s not a huge kid, but he’s very intelligent and very smart on the ice.

“He positions himself well. He’s unbelievable and uncanny with the stick. He pokechecks, he’s got great reach and even just shooting from the point, he gets the puck on the net. “All the good teams that have won, they’ve all had that guy on the point: (Nicklas) Lidstrom, (Zdeno) Chara. In the old days with Robinson, Savard, Lapointe, Potvin and Coffey. He’s that kind of player. He is that important to the Senators.”

Orr doesn’t believe Karlsson would be having this kind of success if Ottawa coach Paul MacLean didn’t take off the leash and let the youngster play to his strengths.

“I want to say one thing about the coach and whoever is allowing him to do this and I’ve been saying this forever: You get a guy who can skate like that, let him go, for gawd’s sakes,” said Orr.

“He’ll get caught. I got caught. The players understand how he plays. They accept it. He’s fast enough to get back a lot of times. You have kids coming along where (the coach says) shoot the puck up the glass and shoot it in.

“The coach is letting (Karlsson) do it and since they’ve allowed him to do it, this kid has been unbelievable. But, let him do it. That’s how he is most effective. Is he gonna make mistakes? Yup. Is he gonna get caught? Yup. But the pluses are going to outweigh the minuses.

“There are probably some coaches who wouldn’t let him go like he does. They let me go. They let Coffey go. I couldn’t imagine playing any other way and I can’t imagine young Erik playing any other way, either.”

The biggest difference Orr has seen in Karlsson’s game is maturity.

“His whole game has changed. He’s probably more conscious of his own end than he’s ever been,” said Orr. “He gets to the puck, he gets the puck on his stick and there are no worries. That is the kind of player he is.

“The best defence is to get the puck and he gets it. He moves it as well as anybody. The forwards on Ottawa have to say, ‘Whew, that’s great, we know we’re going to get it. We know it’s coming.’ He was aware of his minus last year and he really made great strides in the defensive zone.”

http://www.torontosun.com/2012/03/17/bobby-orr-a-big-karlsson-booster

 

[Frk It]

The best defensive players will always have lots of points.

That's absolutely not any type of an accurate correlation.

 

[jbeck5]

Yes, it is has become a joke. It's just basically the Art Ross for d man. If it went to best overall d man Weber and Pieterangelo would have several.

No they wouldn't. The difference between karlssons offense and their offense is greater than the difference between their defense.

Therefore, overall, karlsson is better.

Go ahead and try to find individual numbers that show weber and pietrangelo are greater defensively than karlsson by a greater number than the offensive difference.

 

[Chfan]

No they wouldn't. The difference between karlssons offense and their offense is greater than the difference between their defense.

Therefore, overall, karlsson is better.

Go ahead and try to find individual numbers that show weber and pietrangelo are greater defensively than karlsson by a greater number than the offensive difference.

This. The Norris is for the best overall defenseman. Think about it as a points system where offense AND defense is rated.

If Karlsson or Subban are rated well above the rest on offense, than "good" grades on defense is enough to be the best overall.

 

[Frk It]

No they wouldn't. The difference between karlssons offense and their offense is greater than the difference between their defense.

Therefore, overall, karlsson is better.

Go ahead and try to find individual numbers that show weber and pietrangelo are greater defensively than karlsson by a greater number than the offensive difference.

That's the issue though. There's no way to objectively quantify "defensive play". But I can tell you when I watch Weber and Karlsson the two aren't even close in their own end to me.

 

[SEALBound]

Im for it.

The Norris and the Orr.

Wouldn't mind a Gretzky trophy for most assists either. Truthfully, why not?

 

[jbeck5]

That's the issue though. There's no way to objectively quantify "defensive play". But I can tell you when I watch Weber and Karlsson the two aren't even close in their own end to me.

That's because they play different styles. Karlsson is better at taking the puck away than weber. Weber is better at hitting or shot blocking.

When I watch weber and karlsson the two aren't even close in the offensive zone to me. But I can back it up with stats.

 

[Skinnyjimmy08]

its different nowadays... Everyone is obsessed with increasing scoring in NHL and most minor hockey kids now a days have way more offense to their games and look up to the Karlsson's and PK's and all that. Back when I was younger we looked up to those mean intimidating dmen...Strictly stay at home dmen are a dying breed.

 

[Frk It]

That's because they play different styles. Karlsson is better at taking the puck away than weber. Weber is better at hitting or shot blocking.

When I watch weber and karlsson the two aren't even close in the offensive zone to me. But I can back it up with stats.

Karlsson has no equal offensively, I totally agree there.

But I'd say he's average defensively, in my opinion.

Weber is great offensively (even with garbage forwards pre-Forsberg), and also great defensively. Weber was top 10 in pts for d in 3 of the last 4 years.

So yeah, Weber is a better all-around guy to me all day. But I agree with OP, Norris has become a joke.

 

[Voight]

Yes, so Erik Karlsson can stop winning the Norris or being in the discussion.

 

[Duke749]

How about we just change who votes on it first, and then go from there.

ALso, this thread started off terrible as the OP just sounded sour. THere was a right way to start this thread. That wasn't it.

 

[JayKing]

It'll just double the awards Karlsson and Subban will be winning for the next 6-8 years

 

[NightmanCometh]

Im for it.

The Norris and the Orr.

Wouldn't mind a Gretzky trophy for most assists either. Truthfully, why not?

If anything it'd be the Coffey and the Norris. Coffey was known as an offensive defenseman, practically an additional winger, Orr was just known as excellent no matter where he was.

 

[I Hate Blake Coleman]

HF wants to water down everything.

The Norris, alone, is good enough. "BEST ALL AROUND" includes offense.

 

[LAKings88]

If Doughty wins this year will it quiet down the talk of "offense" wins the Norris?

As a Kings fan I'm biased but I still think he is the best defender in the world right now. Keith is strong as well.

 

[DrunkUncleDenis]

If Doughty wins this year will it quiet down the talk of "offense" wins the Norris?

As a Kings fan I'm biased but I still think he is the best defender in the world right now. Keith is strong as well.

I think it might. If I recall Doughty finished outside of the top 10 in D scoring.

Doughty's a beaut.