Is Elias Lindholm Overrated; Was Vancouver's Chemistry Interrupted?

[OilerTyler]

Is Vancouver really looking to dump him already?

 

[SeanMoneyHands]

Lindholm got overrated when he put up 82pts and 40 goals playing with Gaudreau and Tkachchuk. Those two guys carried Lindholm and made him look like a #1C when he's never been a true #1C in his career.

 

[Drew Doubty]

Did you not just describe regression to the mean?

A period of an over 100 PDO doesn't not predict a period of sub 100 later. That's like saying because I've lost 5 hands of blackjack in a row I'm due to win the next. Unless you believe in some kind of cosmic hockey force which must equalize bounces over the long haul.

 

[tfwnogf]

It's interesting how this thread on Lindholm has some interesting discussion on the one hand, and on the other hand we have some of the lowest information, most emotionally driven, hot take vomiting posters from like 11 different teams spitting out the same meme about 'le epic PDO XD'.

Like I literally recognize several user names from other threads over the years where they have shown their whole ass. But the internet is a big place and the loudest people aren't often the most thoughtful, but they're often the most prominent.

On Lindholm:

There's a reason the Canucks acted a month before the trade deadline. It takes time to gel when you're adding a top 6 center to your team. He, theoretically, has his hand in every phase of the game. He's amazing on the draw so he takes a lot of D zone draws, he PKs, he plays on the PP. He plays when you're down by a goal, he plays when you're up by a goal etc etc.

If you've ever played hockey you know it's an instinct driven game, if you're thinking out there you're already behind the play. Well, learning a new system, with new teammates, in a new city, with new coaches, and a new apartment, and new routines, etc etc is going to put anyone into their head unless you happen to get lucky and start off on a tear that builds its own momentum.

So we're using that month. We have had a wonderful start, and we're using that to our advantage by working out some lineup kinks and struggling a bit when it doesn't especially matter.

We've also had a really challenging schedule in terms of lack of rest, lots of time on the road, very little practice time, etc. So he joined the team when we were slumping, but also during a scheduled slump.

Now, all of that said, he's looked competent and useful, but he hasn't played like a guy you want to deal a first and Brzustewicz for. But he has time to figure that out and so does the team.

It's hilarious that we have one bad 7 game stretch and the silliest among us can't wait to dunk on the PDO meme that even they had to back off of when we were sitting at like 35 games over .500.

As noted also, Soucy is key to our structure. He's incredibly stout and is just a stopper both on transition and on the cycle.

Joshua is a big loss too because that line with Blueger and Garland has been absolutely incredible all year. When other lines would struggle, they would keep plugging along which meant a lot because it meant we never gave up the momentum of 4 bad shifts in a row because that constellation literally never played in their own zone.

So without those two, we aren't immune to slumping - and we are.

Tocchet's a great coach, we have amazing stars at the top of our lineup, good depth, and an amazing goalie. We'll get it back.

With that said, this is the start of our window not the end. We're very unlikely to win the cup this year (much as I hope we will) and it will be a fairly successful year if we blowout the bottom seed in the first and lose a close one in the 2nd round. Teams need to lose before they learn how to win like 95% of the time.

So watch this with more of a longview and enjoy the ride Canucks' fans.

And fans of other teams who love hockey and enjoy watching hockey artistry, for the first time in quite awhile the Canucks are relevant to you for more than just unique brilliance by individuals here and there.

And for those who foam at the mouth to drop their cool PDO jokes, I don't have to worry about you because this post was likely far too long for your limited attention span.

damn, you spent all that time writing this copium essay and now Vancouver might flip him

 

[MarkusNaslund19]

damn, you spent all that time writing this copium essay and now Vancouver might flip him

I've noticed that 'copium' is like a shibboleth for people who aren't actually seeking discourse but trying to make some stranger across the world feel as small as they typically do.

But 2 things.

1. I'm skeptical that this isn't just insiders trying to ginny up interest in perhaps the slowest week preceding trade deadline that we have ever seen, but if it's real it's a proactive move not a desperation move. What i said can be absolutely true, while our executives decided that there's a better fit out there.

2. It might surprise you to know that a post like that takes me less than 10 or 15 minutes so it's not like I 'wasted' an exhausting amount of energy.

 

[tfwnogf]

I've noticed that 'copium' is like a shibboleth for people who aren't actually seeking discourse but trying to make some stranger across the world feel as small as they typically do.

But 2 things.

1. I'm skeptical that this isn't just insiders trying to ginny up interest in perhaps the slowest week preceding trade deadline that we have ever seen, but if it's real it's a proactive move not a desperation move. What i said can be absolutely true, while our executives decided that there's a better fit out there.

2. It might surprise you to know that a post like that takes me less than 10 or 15 minutes so it's not like I 'wasted' an exhausting amount of energy.

Regarding copium I just meant you were like "it's only been x amount of time, sometimes it takes time to gel" and there are already rumors they want to be rid of him I just found that funny. Please carry on with your 1000 word posts in the future.

 

[MarkusNaslund19]

Regarding copium I just meant you were like "it's only been x amount of time, sometimes it takes time to gel" and there are already rumors they want to be rid of him I just found that funny. Please carry on with your 1000 word posts in the future.

Is being literate supposed to be a gotcha?

I'm a hockey fan on a forum for hockey fans. I'm able to formulate thoughts as more than just little single sentence smug remarks.

The posts I most enjoy reading tend to be the longer and more thought out ones. So if I'm supposed to feel embarrassed that someone thinks I 'care too much, man' then you're missing the mark.

And what I said is true, it takes time to gel and it hasn't been long.

That said, we didn't actually acquire him to be a third line center but a winger who could play center in a pinch. He hasn't found chemistry with Petey or Hughes, so if the top brass thinks we can spin him for assets and turn that into Guentzel then I'm fine with it if we don't give up anything stupid. But I wouldn't say it's absolutely necessary. There's still time to figure this out.

 

[tfwnogf]

Is being literate supposed to be a gotcha?

I'm a hockey fan on a forum for hockey fans. I'm able to formulate thoughts as more than just little single sentence smug remarks.

The posts I most enjoy reading tend to be the longer and more thought out ones. So if I'm supposed to feel embarrassed that someone thinks I 'care too much, man' then you're missing the mark.

And what I said is true, it takes time to gel and it hasn't been long.

That said, we didn't actually acquire him to be a third line center but a winger who could play center in a pinch. He hasn't found chemistry with Petey or Hughes, so if the top brass thinks we can spin him for assets and turn that into Guentzel then I'm fine with it if we don't give up anything stupid. But I wouldn't say it's absolutely necessary. There's still time to figure this out.

Never said that, don't read too much into it. You type to your hearts content.

 

[klefbombs shoulder]

Nick Kypreos on lindholm and the Canucks.



Why trade for a guy if you are unsure of the work ethic?

 

[TheDawnOfANewTage]

Lindholm got overrated when he put up 82pts and 40 goals playing with Gaudreau and Tkachchuk. Those two guys carried Lindholm and made him look like a #1C when he's never been a true #1C in his career.

I’ve never once been impressed by his play. Granted I don’t watch much Flames, and there’s something to be said for quiet and steady.. but Tkachuk and Johnny make plays. I know that without following their teams. Always seemed like the Kunitz of that line, in a way.

Nick Kypreos on lindholm and the Canucks.



Why trade for a guy if you are unsure of the work ethic?

Because they wanted to make a decent sized move. Wheel and deal em, they may be up but they don’t stop trading pieces.

 

[Nucker101]

Nick Kypreos on lindholm and the Canucks.



Why trade for a guy if you are unsure of the work ethic?

These same guys were speculating that Petey wanted out. I really don’t buy that these guys have a Canucks source.

 

[Pukboy5kroner]

Hilarious that people are desperately taking shots at the Canucks for PDO and sh% regression in a thread that's supposed to be about Elias Lindholm.

The question was half did he interrupt the Canucks' chemistry. In that regard, I take it some of the PDO regression is just addressing that they were bound to hit a bad patch of games where the puck wasn't going their way. If that's the case, it follows that it wasn't a Lindholm jinx.

 

[Pukboy5kroner]

A period of an over 100 PDO doesn't not predict a period of sub 100 later. That's like saying because I've lost 5 hands of blackjack in a row I'm due to win the next. Unless you believe in some kind of cosmic hockey force which must equalize bounces over the long haul.

It doesn't predict anything. Regression to the mean implies sample sizes. So, it's not saying that if you lost 5 hands you will win this or that hand. More, if you play another 20 or so, your luck will likely be better than those 5. If you win 5, the same applies, but in the less lucky direction.

 

[McFlyingV]

A period of an over 100 PDO doesn't not predict a period of sub 100 later. That's like saying because I've lost 5 hands of blackjack in a row I'm due to win the next. Unless you believe in some kind of cosmic hockey force which must equalize bounces over the long haul.

Never did I say it did. But looking at historical PDOs one might infer that the Canucks PDO was likely to regress over the course of an entire season. It is currently doing that.

 

[Tobias Kahun]

People have been talking out their ass with the PDO stuff all year it’s no surprise there’s barely any nuance here. 10th in xGF% 5v5, 7th since the start of November and 4th since start of January. Like most Canucks fans were saying, as the PDO went down, score effects would improve the underlying numbers, which is exactly what happened. They’re clearly a good team going through a slump. But yea it’s totally just PDO regression and they suck. Idiots.

But we were told that Tocchet coaches a system that allowed for half the bottom 6 to shoot at 20%.

What happened to that.

 

[Regal]

But we were told that Tocchet coaches a system that allowed for half the bottom 6 to shoot at 20%.

What happened to that.

Those people were also dumb

But focusing on it was missing the forest for the trees. The team didn’t need their shooting percentage as high as it was to win. They were still playing well.

 

[Johnsie19]

Lindholm is definitely at least good, but he's not great and he shouldn't be a 1C on a team that wants to go to the playoffs unless he's being hard carried.

He's barely a 2nd line player. So I would call that not good. His role and AAV suggest he is better than he is.

 

[SeanMoneyHands]

He's barely a 2nd line player. So I would call that not good. His role and AAV suggest he is better than he is.

Lindholm has obviously proven that he can be a top line player as long as he's paired with star linemates who can carry him.

Blame the Flames ownership for overrating this guy since he had a career year. The expectations for him skyrocketed especially when Gaudreau and Tkachuk left and Huberdeau came in. All of a sudden everyone was expecting Huberdeau and Lindholm to carry and lead the Flames offense night in and night out. Bad bad mistake. Lindholm is best as a secondary support player playing behind star players who will do most of the heavy lifting.

He will never be a primary offensive player on any team but his best asset is his 2 way game and ability to win a lot of faceoffs. In other words a William Karlsson clone. I mean even Karlsson got lucky in his first year in Vegas scoring 45 goals I think, then he couldn't replicate that the following seasons. As soon as people saw Karlsson for what he is (an elite 2 way center), and Vegas moved Karlsson down the lineup, he played better in a lesser role.

I think the only team who is currently interested in signing Lindholm and where Lindholm could actually be their #1C is Boston. They have a strong enough offense and I think Pasta is a good enough player to carry Lindholm on the top line.

 

[Johnsie19]

Lindholm has obviously proven that he can be a top line player as long as he's paired with star linemates who can carry him.

Blame the Flames ownership for overrating this guy since he had a career year. The expectations for him skyrocketed especially when Gaudreau and Tkachuk left and Huberdeau came in. All of a sudden everyone was expecting Huberdeau and Lindholm to carry and lead the Flames offense night in and night out. Bad bad mistake. Lindholm is best as a secondary support player playing behind star players who will do most of the heavy lifting.

He will never be a primary offensive player on any team but his best asset is his 2 way game and ability to win a lot of faceoffs. In other words a William Karlsson clone. I mean even Karlsson got lucky in his first year in Vegas scoring 45 goals I think, then he couldn't replicate that the following seasons. As soon as people saw Karlsson for what he is (an elite 2 way center), and Vegas moved Karlsson down the lineup, he played better in a lesser role.

I think the only team who is currently interested in signing Lindholm and where Lindholm could actually be their #1C is Boston. They have a strong enough offense and I think Pasta is a good enough player to carry Lindholm on the top line.

You might be right about Pasta. And as a Canucks fan I would be happy to get rid of him. He is a complete nothing. He does win draws but I dont even see strong defensive play. And hes soft, unenergetic and a bad skater. its hard to imagine him being good. Even though he has been in the past.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

Nick Kypreos on lindholm and the Canucks.



Why trade for a guy if you are unsure of the work ethic?

They dumped a bloke with definite work ethic issues for him, so there's that.

 

[Sergei Shirokov]

Is he better than Kuz or no

Yes & its not even a question.

Kuzmenko didn't forecheck how Tocchet wanted him to forecheck. That relationship was doomed from the start.

*Didn't forecheck at all

(For the most part)

PDO wizards running out of magic, this is what we all knew would happen.

Sonk. 3-1-1 in last 5.

Joshua is a prime example of a guy that has been playing way over his head this year.

He's turning 28 shortly and has never put up strong point totals at any level before this season.

He's had a Lance Bouma season where everything has gone in for him, and next year some fans will be wondering what happened to his scoring touch.

Joshua's value isn't in the offense, though its a plus, he does have solid enough hands & an ability to make plays.

His value is more in work along the walls; protecting pucks & turning pucks over, Defensively being very strong (a top PKer on our team), and good enough offensive skill to capitalize on opportunities.

Without Garland he couldn't create enough offense to have his current stats, but he's certainly got enough skill & is a great complimentary piece that brings other elements too. Hardly a knock as he's a legit good 3rd line player.

 

[Sergei Shirokov]

Might be on an Island here; but I'd definitely like to bring Lindholm back at a non-Horvat number. Positionally he's fantastic & he makes alot of unspectacular but important plays.

He's been on the third line for a bit here, b/c Tocchett wants Him/Petey/JT all as C's, but I'd love to see him centering JT or Petey. Definitely think he has more to give offensively & he's shown it already at times.

 

[LordBacon]

Might be on an Island here; but I'd definitely like to bring Lindholm back at a non-Horvat number. Positionally he's fantastic & he makes alot of unspectacular but important plays.

He's been on the third line for a bit here, b/c Tocchett wants Him/Petey/JT all as C's, but I'd love to see him centering JT or Petey. Definitely think he has more to give offensively & he's shown it already at times.

Maybe for less than 6 x 4 yrs but I doubt he'd settle for this kind of money.

 

[2for1PizzaPastuh]

Sonk. 3-1-1 in last 5.

you're right canucks are a powerhouse for the next 10 years

 

[Regal]

you're right canucks are a powerhouse for the next 10 years

Yea, shooting down ignorant posts is totally the same thing as suggesting they’re a powerhouse