Is catching Gretzky in goals enough for Ovechkin to surpass Crosby?

[Erik Alfredsson]

Crosby gets Selke votes because of the respect he has in the NHL. He is the most respected player in the league, and they are campaigning to give Sid a Selke as a life achievement award.

Just look at Backstrom who is a better defensive player than Crosby and how Crosby is beating him amongst voters by a lot. It's obvious why and only takes a few seconds to realize what is going on.

Oh yeah, because Ovechkin isn't one of the most well-respected players in the league. I forgot that all 122 people who voted for Crosby for the Selke were just biased towards him.

Btw, Backstrom has finished ahead of Crosby in Selke voting twice in the past 5 seasons, so I don't know about your conspiracy theory.

 

[Erik Alfredsson]

but did he put up 132 points and 64 goals? …..

No but if we're talking peak it's pretty clear that Crosby had the higher peak, even as a goal scorer. It just was unfortunately a very short peak due to injuries.

 

[tacogeoff]

No but if we're talking peak it's pretty clear that Crosby had the higher peak, even as a goal scorer. It just was unfortunately a very short peak due to injuries.

so we are using averages and pacing for peak seasons now?

 

[895]

I feel like people try to hard to force a comparison between Crosby and Ovechkin, because they're vastly different players and how you decide who the "better" player is totally depends on how you judge players. That's the big reason I don't get why this debate is still happening, the debate at this point is "the way I evaluate players says Crosby is better than Ovechkin" or the other way around. How do you even value goals, hits and individual trophies vs assists, 2-way play and team trophies? It's just arbitrary, it's totally dependent on the person.

Let's make an analogy, who was better: Bobby Hull or Stan Mikita? How you answer that question is 100% dependent on what you value in players, which doesn't say who the "better" player was. I don't think Ovechkin breaking the goal scoring record adds anything for him, because he's already widely regarded as the best goal scorer of all time. It doesn't change that comparing 2 fundamentally different players is really, really difficult to do.

It's not really about a direct comparison, it's about positioning on the all time list. And yes, most people rank Hull higher than Mikita,

Orr is a defenseman and Roy is a goalie, but people clearly rate Orr greater than Roy. They can do this despite them playing different positions.

I never once used the word better in the original question.

 

[Erik Alfredsson]

so we are using averages and pacing for peak seasons now?

Well I didn't know that we were using single season to determine peak either. If you want to do that then Crosby had the same amount of in 41 games than Ovechkin did in 79. Not to mention Crosby has the highest scoring season out of the two with 120 points, to Ovechkin's 112. Not enough? How about how Crosby's largest point difference between himself and the 2nd place finisher was 17 points in 2013-14. Ovechkin's? 6 points. But yeah, Ovechkin had a higher peak. Okay then. By what metric?

 

[Empoleon8771]

It's not really about a direct comparison, it's about positioning on the all time list. And yes, most people rank Hull higher than Mikita,

Orr is a defenseman and Roy is a goalie, but people clearly rate Orr greater than Roy. They can do this despite them playing different positions.

I never once used the word better in the original question.

But that one is obvious, when Ovechkin vs Crosby really isn't. Crosby and Ovechkin are close enough where whichever one is "better" is totally dependent on how you evaluate them. It's not an obvious comparison, how you rate them shows more about how you rate players than which one of Crosby or Ovechkin is better.

 

[Erik Alfredsson]

But that one is obvious, when Ovechkin vs Crosby really isn't. Crosby and Ovechkin are close enough where whichever one is "better" is totally dependent on how you evaluate them. It's not an obvious comparison, how you rate them shows more about how you rate players than which one of Crosby or Ovechkin is better.

You don't have to play nice for HFBoards. Ovechkin vs Crosby is very obvious to anyone who is paying attention. Crosby consistently better offensively (Crosby has outscored Ovechkin 8 times to Ovechkin outscoring Crosby 3, including every single season since 2013-14), higher offensive peak (highest point total and highest point differential between 1st and 2nd), miles better defensively (4th place Selke finish to Ovechkin's 28th), miles better playoff performer (2 Conn Smythes, 8th highest playoff point per game of all time to Ovechkin's 33rd), miles better international resume. It's not close, at all. Ovi is a top 20 player of all time. Crosby is top 5.

 

[895]

But that one is obvious, when Ovechkin vs Crosby really isn't. Crosby and Ovechkin are close enough where whichever one is "better" is totally dependent on how you evaluate them. It's not an obvious comparison, how you rate them shows more about how you rate players than which one of Crosby or Ovechkin is better.

Okay but what's the issue? People will disagree and discuss. The goal of HFboards is not to be the final arbiter of truth.

 

[tacogeoff]

Well I didn't know that we were using single season to determine peak either. If you want to do that then Crosby had the same amount of in 41 games than Ovechkin did in 79. Not to mention Crosby has the highest scoring season out of the two with 120 points, to Ovechkin's 112. Not enough? How about how Crosby's largest point difference between himself and the 2nd place finisher was 17 points in 2013-14. Ovechkin's? 6 points. But yeah, Ovechkin had a higher peak. Okay then. By what metric?

that's your metric and I absolutely see why you lean that way. Everyone is entitled to view each players legacy in a different light.

my metric for Ovi's accomplished season would be that he won the Hart, Ross, Pearson and Richard. He may of only been ahead by 6 points overall but he was ahead by 13 goals from the nearest competition.

All in all their best seasons are pretty similar in my view.

 

[KoozNetsOff 92]

If you value peak so heavily then you need to take into consideration the 2010-11 season where Crosby was on pace for a 132 point, 64 goal season.

I value actual production, not fantasy.

 

[Erik Alfredsson]

that's your metric and I absolutely see why you lean that way. Everyone is entitled to view each players legacy in a different light.

my metric for Ovi's accomplished season would be that he won the Hart, Ross, Pearson and Richard. He may of only been ahead by 6 points overall but he was ahead by 13 goals from the nearest competition.

All in all their best seasons are pretty similar in my view.

Again, what metric besides goals, because Crosby has a season where he won the Hart, Art Ross, and Lindsey as well. In fact, he has two.

Again, nobody is debating Ovechkin as the greater goal scorer.

 

[Erik Alfredsson]

I value actual production, not fantasy.

So Crosby has the highest point total out of the two with 120 to Ovi's 112. He also has the largest point gap in his Art Ross season with 17 points to Ovechkin's 6.

 

[YEM]

Caps are gonna win another Cup AND he might catch Gretz which will even further muddy these waters
Pens Cup window is painted shut imo.

 

[KoozNetsOff 92]

So Crosby has the highest point total out of the two with 120 to Ovi's 112. He also has the largest point gap in his Art Ross season with 17 points to Ovechkin's 6.

Nicholls scored 70 goals in a season so by your logic he's a better goal scorer than OV, Jagr, Bure, Bobby Hull right? Yeah I'm pretty sure having peak Malkin as competition is just a bit harder than Getzlaf don't you think? Maybe use just a bit of context.

 

[Erik Alfredsson]

Nicholls scored 70 goals in a season so by your logic he's a better goal scorer than OV, Jagr, Bure, Bobby Hull right? Yeah I'm pretty sure having peak Malkin as competition is just a bit harder than Getzlaf don't you think? Maybe use just a bit of context.

The guy brings up context but them immediately compares a player from the 80s-90s to a one year difference between Ovi and Crosby. And I'm pretty sure prime Malkin is 2012, but alright. I guess some people will believe whatever they want, regardless of the logic, or lack thereof, behind it. There's really no argument for Ovechkin being better than Crosby, peak or career.

 

[KoozNetsOff 92]

The guy brings up context but them immediately compares a player from the 80s-90s to a one year difference between Ovi and Crosby. And I'm pretty sure prime Malkin is 2012, but alright. I guess some people will believe whatever they want, regardless of the logic, or lack thereof, behind it. There's really no argument for Ovechkin being better than Crosby, peak or career.

You don't even know what your own posts say lol. You're using 2 Crosby seasons (06/07 & 13/14) to compare to 1 OV season, using his raw pts from 07 & his ross win % from 14. Oh I didn't know a players prime was 1 year, but I guess you can make up whatever you like.

Make a poll for Crosby 06/07 or 13/14 vs OV 07/08 and see what happens.

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

Ovechkin has also never had a full season playoffs+ reg season as Crosby did in 16-17.

2nd in hart
2nd in scoring
Richard
Cup
Conn smythe
World Cup mvp
World Cup leading scorer

All in one season.

 

[wetcoast]

I'm saying that his feat of leading the league in points along a 13 goal lead is more impressive to me personally than a 17 point lead on overall points.

Fair enough.

 

[Kunta Kinte]

He would had a chance if he didnt f***ed up with his 32goals in 79games, 38 in 78 and 33 in 82 games.

I think he scores 200-210, max. He will have a shot at 50 this year. Next one too maybe.

 

[Zuluss]

Things like that just need to sink in. It is hard to imagine now how people who will have witnessed Ovechkin beating Gretzky's career goal record will view Ovechkin. It is even harder to imagine how those who become fans with the knowledge that Ovechkin is that star of the old days who surpassed Gretzky in one big thing will view Ovechkin.

Ovechkin's legend is like a huge mountain you have to admire from a distance. I doubt his 8 Rockets have sank in completely with most people including myself. "Who led the NHL in goals most times?" - I lived for too many years with the knowledge it was Bobby Hull. Ovechkin's Cup and Smythe definitely have not sunk in, the talk of Ovechkin not being able to get it done and take the team out of the 2nd round is still fresh in everyone's memory. The new generation of fans that have not heard this talk and became fans with the knowledge that Ovechkin has a Cup and was a playoff MVP has not yet arrived.

Ovechkin's legend will grow with time. As someone who have witnessed the debate about him in his peak years, I can say that his 2007-2010 peak and 07/08 season are now viewed more favorably than they were back then. The talk that Crosby was 1B in this period, or Malkin was 1B, and what about Datsyuk - all that stuff has largely stopped. Ovechkin now owns "best three-year peak since Jagr", and if McDavid has a flatter career arc and does not take it away from Ovechkin, just imagine what people would think 10 years down the road - "Ovechkin? You mean the guy everyone's peak play in the last 30 years is being compared to and fails to measure up?"

So, coming back to career goals - if Ovechkin gets to 895, every decade and every brilliant goal-scorer with multiple goal-scoring titles who will fall short by 200 goals will add to future fans' awe. It is impossible to imagine now the fan of 2050 and the image of the towering Ovechkin figure in his mind. And yes, there will be a difference between 897 and 887, though Gretzky/Ovechkin will be the double peak in career goals anyway.

 

[Not Canada Drai]

I'm in the very small minority of people who think that Ovechkin has had a better personal career than Crosby and that he has already cemented himself as the best goal scorer of all-time.

 

[93LEAFS]

I wish maybe was a poll answer. I mean, say Crosby somehow wins two more cups and wins the Conn Smyth both times? Since we don't know how Crosby's last couple years will play out, its almost impossible to answer.

 

[Snowpants]

Caps are gonna win another Cup AND he might catch Gretz which will even further muddy these waters
Pens Cup window is painted shut imo.

really??? I do not like the Pens at all but would put money on them winning another Cup over Caps

I think Ovy has all he will win in Washington unless they make a big trade or he goes to another team

 

[Anahome]

I wouldn't put money on Pens. Since Tom Wilson started to play on the Caps top 6, the Pens regressed somehow. They haven't found Tom Wilson solution yet.

 

[psycat]

I already rank Ovechkin ahead.