Is catching Gretzky in goals enough for Ovechkin to surpass Crosby?

Discussion in 'Polls - (hockey-related only)' started by Dumb and nobody, Nov 1, 2019.

?

If Ovechkin passes Gretzky, is he greater than Crosby?

  1. Yes, regardless of how he does it

    34.4%
  2. Yes, but only if he doesn't do it as a compiler

    3.4%
  3. As long as he comes close, he surpasses Crosby

    5.7%
  4. No, even then Crosby is greater

    43.2%
  5. Ovechkin is already greater

    13.4%
  1. Anahome

    Anahome Registered User

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    He doesn't do only one-timers. He's more all around player now than 5 years ago. He changed his style. You are applying the stereotype to Ovechkin that is circulating around people who don't watch the Caps plays.
     
  2. b in vancouver

    b in vancouver Registered User

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    Usually when I think of compiler I think of good goal-scorers but never in that elite level while having long healthy careers. Guys like Kessel, Gartner, Marleau, Andreychuck.
    A guy whom wins Rocket after Rocket could play until he was 50 and I still wouldn't think of him as a compiler. It'd be like referring to Gordie Howe as a compiler, which I guess people sadly do nowadays, glossing over all the Hart and Art Ross trophies he won.
     
  3. Kevin8se7en

    Kevin8se7en OTT/EDM/PHI

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    One guy will likely have stats slightly worse than Marcel Dionne, and the other will be #1 all-time in goals. Who do you think future generations will 'remember' more?

    WE might know Crosby was the better player for a longer period, but the history books won't show it that way if Ovie scores 895+
     
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  4. Caps8112

    Caps8112 Registered User

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    Crosby doesn't get anywhere near those totals without Malkin. Just saying. Nice to have the 2nd or 3rd best player in the league (depending on the year) on your team for the playoffs.
     
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  5. Bertuzzzi44

    Bertuzzzi44 Registered User

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    Have Crosby slightly ahead of Ovechkin right now but man if the Great 8 hits 800 he might take the cake.
     
  6. JackSlater

    JackSlater Registered User

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    I would rather have voted that it would be irrelevant in an assessment between the two of them. How Ovechkin's totals stack up against Gretzky's should have no bearing on how he does against anyone other than Gretzky. Someone thinking that Ovechkin surpasses Crosby as a player due to passing some other player in goals is bizarre to me. If Gretzky scored 200 more goals than he did and Ovechkin had no chance of passing him, it wouldn't suddenly make Ovechkin worse in comparison to Crosby. If someone thinks that he is just better regardless I could at least understand that position.
     
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  7. BrindamoursNose

    BrindamoursNose Registered User

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    I mean, people still say Lemieux is better than Gretz despite the numbers -- so it'll be mixed no matter what I think.

    I'd take Sid though.
     
  8. KidLine93

    KidLine93 Registered User

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    Didn’t Sid get swept in the first round last year ?
     
  9. Luigi Lemieux

    Luigi Lemieux Registered User

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    Crosby and Pittsburgh have a pass for life at this point. Most successful playoff player and most successful playoff team of the cap era.
     
  10. wetcoast

    wetcoast Registered User

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    by why use Dionne, who played in the free wheeling 70's and 80's as the bar.

    Crosby could end up with less points than Dionne but still more than Mario Lemieux.

    See how that namedrop of Dionne who is 6th all time in scoring BTW, no small feat at all, was replaced by Mario.

    That's why namedropping is really irrelevant.

    The chances of Ovechkin scoring 895 plus is pretty slim.
     
  11. wetcoast

    wetcoast Registered User

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    Such a weak argument really.

    I'm not looking forward to equally irrelevant argument that McDavid isn't that great because he has such a great talent like Draistal to play with..............
     
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  12. illpucks

    illpucks Registered User

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    Kane is better. And Malkin has a solid argument for being better performer, because he was robbed of his 2nd Smythe in 17, and Kessel deserved the 1st.
     
  13. Kevin8se7en

    Kevin8se7en OTT/EDM/PHI

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    You completely missed my point, but OK.
     
  14. Sour Shoes

    Sour Shoes 5Cups beats 2Cups

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    I'd rather just have the actual better player. If a segment of our future nhl fanbase is dimwitted with the goals > points/overall play thing - that's quite alright.
     
  15. wetcoast

    wetcoast Registered User

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    No I don't think that I did.

    Mike Gartner has more goals than Yzerman and Messier, is he remembered even as close as those 2 guys?

    Ovechkin is already considered by many as the greatest goal scorer of all time and many of those same people also consider Crosby to be the better player.
     
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  16. KidLine93

    KidLine93 Registered User

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    I thought Kunitz had more cups. Crosby hasn't won one without him
     
  17. Luigi Lemieux

    Luigi Lemieux Registered User

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    I'm talking about the 186 points in 164 games. No active player is even close. Malkin is the only other one above 1 ppg.
     
  18. Caps8112

    Caps8112 Registered User

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    its actually logic. malkin had mvp type runs the same years Crosby did in the playoffs and they went further then others surprisingly those years. therefore its safe to say he had the opportunity to play more games then other players hence accumulating more points because of malkin. pitt doesn't win all those series with just Crosby scoring. when just 1 or the other is scoring they tend to get eliminated
     
  19. Beauner

    Beauner Registered User

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    I'm not sure how this has any relevance. They only play together on the PP, and Crosby always has the tougher matchups anyway.
     
  20. Caps8112

    Caps8112 Registered User

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    was not referring to malkin directly helping Crosby. Im saying his team doesn't keep advancing to the next round each year giving him more opportunities to accumulate points without malkin. not going to look it up but the years only 1 of them was there pitt didn't do well in the playoffs.
     
  21. Syrinx

    Syrinx Scan It...

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    Crosby had 15 goals and 31 points and played defense.
    Ovechkin had 15 goals and 27 points and didn't play defense.

    How is Ovechkin's Smythe Run (which should have gone to Evgeny Kuznetsov) better? That is ridiculous.
     
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  22. illpucks

    illpucks Registered User

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    Oh HF, never change. Ovechkin has a 200ft game. You look foolish saying he didn't play defense because he did. It's sad how 1 gif from 2013 is all HFers know about Ovi's defense.
     
  23. Vilica

    Vilica Registered User

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    Can we dispense with this whole Crosby/Malkin are ridiculous playoff performers above and beyond their normal production? Their numbers are a product of opportunity and goalie randomness, and are in line with other top playoff performers. If you break down their production by series, comparing both Crosby and Malkin to Ovechkin and Kane, you start to see how and where their point and PPG advantage occurs.

    Start with the Stanley Cup Final, where Malkin and Crosby have 25 games, while Kane has 18 and Ovechkin 5 - Malkin is 8+10=18, Crosby 4+16=20, Kane 7+9=16, Ovechkin 3+2=5. Apart from Ovechkin's tiny sample size, there's nothing wrong with those numbers. Move onto the Conference Final, where Crosby and Malkin have 27 games, while Kane has 28 and Ovechkin 7 - Malkin 12+14=26, Crosby 10+15=25, Kane 10+19=29, Ovechkin 4+3=7. Again, no outliers, generally expected production. Now we can look at the 2nd round, where Malkin has 48 games, Crosby 49, Kane 29 and Ovechkin 44 - Malkin is 17+27=44, Crosby 19+31=50, Kane 19+11=30, Ovechkin 23+22=45. Steady production from everybody, still nothing unexpected. Through 3 rounds, Malkin has 100 games, 37+51=88 points, Crosby 101 games, 33+62=95 points, Kane 75 games, 36+39=75 points, Ovechkin 56 games, 30+27=57 points. No outlier scorers, the Crosby/Malkin advantage in points is entirely due to more games played (which is a good thing - both Crosby and Malkin have been good in the playoffs so the Penguins have gotten to play more games deeper in the playoffs).

    Finally, we arrive at the 1st round, where the differences occur. Malkin has 62 games, Crosby 63, Kane 52, and Ovechkin 65 - Malkin is 26+54=80, Crosby 33+58=91, Kane 14+34=48, and Ovechkin 31+29=60. This part doesn't apply to Kane, because of Western Conference, but Pittsburgh/Washington have a few overlapping goalie matchups, and a few unique goalie matchups. Now this part is a bit tricky, because you're not always comparing same year to same year, but generally speaking Washington has tended to finish ahead of Pittsburgh in the standings, and yet due to randomness, Pittsburgh has faced an easier slate of goaltenders. Working from earliest to latest, Pittsburgh has faced Emery, Gerber, Biron, Leclaire/Elliott, [Roloson], Bryzgalov/Bobrovsky, Nabokov, Bobrovsky, Lundqvist, Lundqvist, Bobrovsky, Elliott/Neuvirth, Lehner. By comparison, Washington's slate of goaltenders faced is Biron, Lundqvist, Halak/Price, Lundqvist, Thomas, Lundqvist, Halak, Mason/Neuvirth, Andersen, Bobrovsky, Mrazek. [Pittsburgh faced Roloson in the 1st round, but neither Crosby nor Malkin played in that series, so we can basically ignore it for the purposes of this analysis. There are 10 other common years where both Pittsburgh and Washington made the playoffs, Pittsburgh finishing ahead 3 years, and Washington 7 years. In the 3 years Pittsburgh finished ahead, they received the easier goalie matchup (by career save percentage), while in the 7 years Washington finished ahead, Pittsburgh received the easier matchup 3 years to Washington's 4.]

    If you break out common goalies faced, each team has faced Lundqvist twice, Biron once, and Bobrovsky once. I chose to use Ovechkin's two lowest point totals of the three times he's faced Lundqvist (2, 6 and 7 points, I used 2 and 6 for common matchups), while the same for Crosby/Malkin in their Bobrovsky appearances (7, 11 for Malkin, 6, 7 for Crosby, I used 7 and 6 for common matchups). That leaves you with 22 games for Crosby and Malkin, 9+14=23 for Malkin, 9+17=26 for Crosby, and 25 games for Ovechkin, 13+12=25.

    That leaves the unique goalie matchups, where Malkin and Crosby have 41 games, while Ovechkin has 47 games - Malkin is 17+40=57, Crosby is 24+41=65, while Ovechkin is 22+22=44. This is where you have the massive advantage for Malkin and Crosby in both points and PPG, and when you look at the remaining goalies, you can see why. Ovechkin's remaining goalie matchups are Halak twice (.916 career), Thomas (.920), Lundqvist (.918), Mason/Neuvirth (.911/.910), Andersen (.918), and Mrazek (.911). In comparison, Malkin/Crosby's remaining goalies are Emery (.906), Gerber (.911), Elliott/Leclaire (.912/.904), Bryzgalov (.912), Nabokov (.911), Bobrovsky (.919), Elliott/Neuvirth (.912/.910), and Lehner (.918).

    Now my premise does rest on two slightly shaky foundations, both of which I acknowledge could be true. There's no reason that the Capitals should have an expectation to face an easier goalie matchup in the playoffs, despite them generally finishing ahead of the Penguins. There's also the opinion that the differences in unique goaltenders is marginal at best, and the performance of Crosby/Malkin compared to Ovechkin is much more than marginal.

    Be that as it may, after typing up a version of this in previous threads, but not posting it, I hope in the future people can refer to this breakdown to understand to an extent why Crosby and Malkin have a gap in both points and PPG over everybody else in the playoffs in this era.
     
    Last edited: Nov 7, 2019
  24. Kevin8se7en

    Kevin8se7en OTT/EDM/PHI

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    How is Mike Gartner having more goals than someone relevant at all? He's not #1, and if he was - yeah I think he'd probably be remembered as better than either Messier or Yzerman.

    My point is IF Ovie gets to 895, then he will be looked at by future generations (that's the part I don't think you're focusing on enough here) as the better player. That is assuming Crosby's point totals are in the Dionne range, which I feel is entirely fair. If Ovie falls short, then I don't think any of this applies.
     
  25. CaptainAmerica

    CaptainAmerica In Trotz We Trust

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    OV is already better. Crosby is grossly overrated due to the Canadian factor.
     
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