MastuhNinks
Registered User
They've definitely done their job, like I said, goaltending is a strength of the Leafs. That doesn't mean they're a terrible team being carried by goaltending though, which is what some people seem to be trying to argue.
Is Bernier an elite goaltender?
- Thread starter Divine
- Start date
stepdad gaary
Registered User
- Dec 5, 2011
- 7,249
- 814
I'd say he's in the top 50 goalies in the world which is pretty "elite." Not many people in the world are in the top 50 in their profession.
CraigsList
In Conroy We Trust
GoJetsGo55
Registered User
Threads like this is why the Leafs get picked on all the time.
Is he elite?
Are you serious?
Career .918
This year .918
Those aren't elite numbers.
Can he be? Sure. Any young goalie can be depending on development.
Michael Hutchinson is leading the league in GAA and SV%, where is his "praise him" thread?
Is he elite?
Are you serious?
Career .918
This year .918
Those aren't elite numbers.
Can he be? Sure. Any young goalie can be depending on development.
Michael Hutchinson is leading the league in GAA and SV%, where is his "praise him" thread?
Ragamuffin Gunner
Lost in the Flood
GoJetsGo55
Registered User
Price has a career sv % of .917 and Quick has a career sv % of .916 and you wouldn't call them elite?
Filatov2Kovalev2Bonk
Effortless sexy.
He's definitely above average and consistent. He's not "elite" like Quick, Price, Lundqvist. He's going to need a playoff run to get into that conversation.
Definitely. Lundqvist, Rask, and Rinne are the only elite goaltenders in the league.
Price is probably 4th but I don't know if Quick is even in the top 10. He had a huge playoff run in 2012 followed by two good ones the next two years but has been below average his entire career in the regular season.
That wasn't the point of my post. Obviously if you take away the best game their sv % would drop, but our goaltender has done a good job so far this year. They haven't stole as many games but they give us a chance to win almost every night.
GoJetsGo55
Registered User
Price has just recently entered the elite conversation. He has had a few rough years where he dipped below .910. No one was calling him elite at that point. In fact, there was a time where there was a debate between trading Price or Halak.
Quick's story is very similar. He has put up much better numbers in the past few years (minus the shortened season and 2013-2014 wasn't so great).
They key things with those guys is that, at some point in recent history, they have put up elite numbers. Bernier has not. His career sv% was used to show that he's right about where he has been in his career.
Berniers .923 last year is impressive but it takes more than 1 season to be elite.
GoJetsGo55
Registered User
I get that but the question isn't "Is Bernier good?" Everyone knows he's a good goalie.
Well played.
Very good yes. . Elite, no. . . To be considered elite, a goalie should put up top 5 numbers for a couple of full seasons at the very least
Warden of the North
Ned Stark's head
No. He still lets in too many complete absolute stinkers. Until he stops doing that he can't be elite.
bouncesonly
Registered User
Played at least 15 games:
Played at least 21 games:
I'd say he's doing well this season, considering team corsi rank.
Code:
Shots Against -- Games Played -- Team Corsi Rank
(
[Cory Schneider] => 790 -- 27 -- 20
[Carey Price] => 710 -- 24 -- 15
[Kari Lehtonen] => 706 -- 23 -- 19
[Jonathan Quick] => 671 -- 22 -- 17
[Pekka Rinne] => 665 -- 24 -- 7
[Frederik Andersen] => 653 -- 24 -- 11
[Ben Bishop] => 644 -- 24 -- 3
[Antti Niemi] => 637 -- 21 -- 8
[Jhonas Enroth] => 631 -- 18 -- 30
[B][Jonathan Bernier] => 625 -- 21 -- 26[/B]
[Roberto Luongo] => 624 -- 21 -- 13
[Jimmy Howard] => 610 -- 23 -- 4
[Marc-Andre Fleury] => 610 -- 21 -- 12
[Craig Anderson] => 593 -- 17 -- 24
[Tuukka Rask] => 592 -- 21 -- 9
[Mike Smith] => 591 -- 21 -- 23
[Steve Mason] => 587 -- 19 -- 25
[Braden Holtby] => 582 -- 22 -- 10
[Sergei Bobrovsky] => 578 -- 18 -- 29
[Henrik Lundqvist] => 573 -- 20 -- 6
[Ondrej Pavelec] => 565 -- 22 -- 5
[Ryan Miller] => 558 -- 22 -- 14
[Ben Scrivens] => 544 -- 20 -- 18
[Jaroslav Halak] => 540 -- 19 -- 21
[Semyon Varlamov] => 517 -- 15 -- 28
[Cam Ward] => 513 -- 19 -- 16
[Corey Crawford] => 476 -- 18 -- 1
[Jonas Hiller] => 476 -- 17 -- 27
[Darcy Kuemper] => 451 -- 20 -- 2
)
Save Percentage -- Shots Against -- Team Corsi Rank
[among goalies who have seen at least 85% of Jonathan Bernier's shots]
(
[Pekka Rinne] => .934 -- 665 -- 7
[Jonathan Quick] => .931 -- 671 -- 17
[Craig Anderson] => .927 -- 593 -- 24
[Marc-Andre Fleury] => .925 -- 610 -- 12
[Roberto Luongo] => .923 -- 624 -- 13
[Carey Price] => .920 -- 710 -- 15
[Jaroslav Halak] => .920 -- 540 -- 21
[Cory Schneider] => .918 -- 790 -- 20
[Jhonas Enroth] => .918 -- 631 -- 30
[B][Jonathan Bernier] => .918 -- 625 -- 26[/B]
[Jimmy Howard] => .918 -- 610 -- 4
[Steve Mason] => .917 -- 587 -- 25
[Sergei Bobrovsky] => .917 -- 578 -- 29
[Braden Holtby] => .916 -- 582 -- 10
[Ben Bishop] => .915 -- 644 -- 3
[Antti Niemi] => .915 -- 637 -- 8
[Ondrej Pavelec] => .915 -- 565 -- 5
[Frederik Andersen] => .913 -- 653 -- 11
[Tuukka Rask] => .912 -- 592 -- 9
[Henrik Lundqvist] => .906 -- 573 -- 6
[Ryan Miller] => .905 -- 558 -- 14
[Kari Lehtonen] => .902 -- 706 -- 19
[Mike Smith] => .890 -- 591 -- 23
[Ben Scrivens] => .886 -- 544 -- 18
)
Goals Against -- Save Percentage -- Team Corsi Rank
[among goalies who have seen at least 85% of Jonathan Bernier's shots]
(
[Jaroslav Halak] => 43 -- .920 -- 21
[Craig Anderson] => 43 -- .927 -- 24
[Pekka Rinne] => 44 -- .934 -- 7
[Marc-Andre Fleury] => 46 -- .925 -- 12
[Jonathan Quick] => 46 -- .931 -- 17
[Ondrej Pavelec] => 48 -- .915 -- 5
[Sergei Bobrovsky] => 48 -- .917 -- 29
[Roberto Luongo] => 48 -- .923 -- 13
[Braden Holtby] => 49 -- .916 -- 10
[Steve Mason] => 49 -- .917 -- 25
[Jimmy Howard] => 50 -- .918 -- 4
[B][Jonathan Bernier] => 51 -- .918 -- 26[/B]
[Tuukka Rask] => 52 -- .912 -- 9
[Jhonas Enroth] => 52 -- .918 -- 30
[Ryan Miller] => 53 -- .905 -- 14
[Henrik Lundqvist] => 54 -- .906 -- 6
[Antti Niemi] => 54 -- .915 -- 8
[Ben Bishop] => 55 -- .915 -- 3
[Frederik Andersen] => 57 -- .913 -- 11
[Carey Price] => 57 -- .920 -- 15
[Ben Scrivens] => 62 -- .886 -- 18
[Mike Smith] => 65 -- .890 -- 23
[Cory Schneider] => 65 -- .918 -- 20
[Kari Lehtonen] => 69 -- .902 -- 19
)Played at least 21 games:
Code:
Shots Against -- Games Played -- Team Corsi Rank
(
[Cory Schneider] => 790 -- 27 -- 20
[Carey Price] => 710 -- 24 -- 15
[Kari Lehtonen] => 706 -- 23 -- 19
[Jonathan Quick] => 671 -- 22 -- 17
[Pekka Rinne] => 665 -- 24 -- 7
[Frederik Andersen] => 653 -- 24 -- 11
[Ben Bishop] => 644 -- 24 -- 3
[Antti Niemi] => 637 -- 21 -- 8
[B][Jonathan Bernier] => 625 -- 21 -- 26[/B]
[Roberto Luongo] => 624 -- 21 -- 13
[Jimmy Howard] => 610 -- 23 -- 4
[Marc-Andre Fleury] => 610 -- 21 -- 12
[Tuukka Rask] => 592 -- 21 -- 9
[Mike Smith] => 591 -- 21 -- 23
[Braden Holtby] => 582 -- 22 -- 10
[Ondrej Pavelec] => 565 -- 22 -- 5
[Ryan Miller] => 558 -- 22 -- 14
)
Save Percentage -- Shots Against -- Team Corsi Rank
[among goalies who have seen as least 85% of Jonathan Bernier's shots]
Array
(
[Pekka Rinne] => .934 -- 665 -- 7
[Jonathan Quick] => .931 -- 671 -- 17
[Marc-Andre Fleury] => .925 -- 610 -- 12
[Roberto Luongo] => .923 -- 624 -- 13
[Carey Price] => .920 -- 710 -- 15
[Cory Schneider] => .918 -- 790 -- 20
[B][Jonathan Bernier] => .918 -- 625 -- 26[/B]
[Jimmy Howard] => .918 -- 610 -- 4
[Braden Holtby] => .916 -- 582 -- 10
[Ben Bishop] => .915 -- 644 -- 3
[Antti Niemi] => .915 -- 637 -- 8
[Ondrej Pavelec] => .915 -- 565 -- 5
[Frederik Andersen] => .913 -- 653 -- 11
[Tuukka Rask] => .912 -- 592 -- 9
[Ryan Miller] => .905 -- 558 -- 14
[Kari Lehtonen] => .902 -- 706 -- 19
[Mike Smith] => .890 -- 591 -- 23
)
Goals Against -- Save Percentage -- Team Corsi Rank
[among goalies who have seen as least 85% of Jonathan Bernier's shots]
Array
(
[Pekka Rinne] => 44 -- .934 -- 7
[Marc-Andre Fleury] => 46 -- .925 -- 12
[Jonathan Quick] => 46 -- .931 -- 17
[Ondrej Pavelec] => 48 -- .915 -- 5
[Roberto Luongo] => 48 -- .923 -- 13
[Braden Holtby] => 49 -- .916 -- 10
[Jimmy Howard] => 50 -- .918 -- 4
[B][Jonathan Bernier] => 51 -- .918 -- 26[/B]
[Tuukka Rask] => 52 -- .912 -- 9
[Ryan Miller] => 53 -- .905 -- 14
[Antti Niemi] => 54 -- .915 -- 8
[Ben Bishop] => 55 -- .915 -- 3
[Frederik Andersen] => 57 -- .913 -- 11
[Carey Price] => 57 -- .920 -- 15
[Mike Smith] => 65 -- .890 -- 23
[Cory Schneider] => 65 -- .918 -- 20
[Kari Lehtonen] => 69 -- .902 -- 19
)I'd say he's doing well this season, considering team corsi rank.
Magic Stick
Keep your head up son
The short answer to Ben Scrivens is that any goaltender can put up an elite or an awful save percentage in a small sample size. For every goaltender you can name who saw an increase in sv% going to a stronger team, I can probably name a goalie whose sv% dropped after going to a better team.
Luongo played for Florida for 5 full seasons, while Florida finished 27th, 28th, 28th, 24th, and 21st. 5v5 sv%: 0.9295.
He then played for Vancouver for 7.5 seasons, while the Canucks finished 8th, 21st, 7th, 5th, 1st, 1st, and 8th. 5v5 sv%: 0.9284.
If you apply the save percentage he achieved in Florida and apply it to the quantity of shots he faced in Vancouver, the difference is ~11 goals over 448 games, or roughly 1-2 goals per year.
The difference in sv% from Luongo of Tire Fire Florida and Luongo of back to back Pres trophy Vancouver is worth 1-2 goals per year.
Over the long run (3000+ shots faced), there is no real difference to shot quality between teams. Yes, in Edmonton or Buffalo, there are probably going to be more 5 alarm scoring chances against, but there's also going to be proportionately more 'easy' saves too. There's been a lot of research on this.
Question 1:
Are Leafs any good?
HFBoards: No, they are getting elite goaltending.
Question 2:
Is Bernier elite?
HFBoards: Hell no!
Are Leafs any good?
HFBoards: No, they are getting elite goaltending.
Question 2:
Is Bernier elite?
HFBoards: Hell no!
zeke
The Dube Abides
- Mar 14, 2005
- 66,937
- 36,957
the thing with ranking goalies is that you're looking at the best 30-40 goalies in the world. even an average one is "elite" in the sense that the 15th best forward and the 15th best defenseman are elite. so we have to remember to adjust our sights with goalies.... an elite goalie is a crosby, stamkos, keith, suter level player, while an average goalie is a bergeron, e.staal, subban, mcdonagh level player.
what we can say for sure is that last year bernier was a top-5 goalie at age 25, in his first chance at being a starting goalie. we can also say that this was no surprise given his prospect pedigree and performance.
here in his second year he hasn't been 100% sharp so far but he's still probably top 10 in goalie performance so far this year.
does he have to prove himself more to be elite? sure. but it seems like a good bet that this is a young goalie set to challenge the top five in any given year.
what we can say for sure is that last year bernier was a top-5 goalie at age 25, in his first chance at being a starting goalie. we can also say that this was no surprise given his prospect pedigree and performance.
here in his second year he hasn't been 100% sharp so far but he's still probably top 10 in goalie performance so far this year.
does he have to prove himself more to be elite? sure. but it seems like a good bet that this is a young goalie set to challenge the top five in any given year.
