Interesting insight from Andrew Ference (31 Thoughts: The Podcast)

[hallhopkinseberle]

Hall was a large part of the reason why this happened in the first place. As I said when you are the major piece of the core and the defacto leader of the team and you arent committed enough to set an example then how on earth can the team start to build a winning culture?
Hall was a player that wasnt coach-able...what kind of an example is it when your best core player thinks that he doesnt have to listen to the coaches? Its toxic to a team and Hall has to own that. Not Management.
Hall had plenty of opportunity to change and right until the day the team got Connor McDavid Hall was still displaying his immaturity. That tweet was very telling IMO.
At that point I posted on here that Hall had to go. As I said earlier if I was a vet player on this team I would have b!tch slapped Hall for that comment. It was very unprofessional and not something a leader does.

A lot of less talented teams have a very strong work ethic...how do you think that happens? It happens because the leaders of the team set an example for everybody else. The core of the team is committed to hard work.

Wait so u actually expected Hall, an 18-19-20 year old to be a defacto leader of an professional team and set an example for the rest of the hockey club?

 

[NotAVacuumSalesman]

So you expect a young player to figure out how to win all by himself? Or win a hockey game all by himself?

Hall said it himself that he didn't want to listen/talk to his coaches.

This is fact and it's not recent news either. Holy shit!

 

[guymez]

bang on. as "cra99y" as the team around hall was, if there's was true buy in from hall the team would have been better. would it have been marginal? would they have only been a 80-85 pt team still on the outside looking in? maybe. but the point would be they would start to build a culture of playing the right way and working towards the winning attitude and better team atmosphere. hard to say how those things would snowball...

Exactly.
Hall was a large part of the problem...there is no doubt about that.

How would this current team do if McDavid had the same sense of entitlement and felt that he didnt need to listen to the coaches?
How long would it take for that to ripple down through the players?
How on earth could the team improve if McDavid continued to be that self absorbed and selfish?

The best player sets the tone for the team and when Hall was here he was the best player.

 

[guymez]

Wait so u actually expected Hall, an 18-19-20 year old to be a defacto leader of an professional team and set an example for the rest of the hockey club?

He needed to be more professional. He needed to be open to coaching. He needed to be part of the solution.
He wasnt.

I have stated this multiple times already and you just ignore it because it doesn't fit your narrative.

 

[hallhopkinseberle]

You're just repeating yourself now.

If Hall chose the loser mentality that is totally on him.

Because you guys aren't getting what I am saying. Hall simply didn't know how to win in the NHL, right we can all agree on that. Winning in the NHL is totally different than winning in the CHL. Expecting an 18-19-20 year to come in a figure how to win in the NHL all himself is unrealistic and very few are able to do that(Crosby/McDavid/Ovi/Lemieux) Those four generational players still missed the playoffs in their rookie seasons. Ovi and Lemieux longer. Look at Lemieux's situaiton they didn't start to win until management brought in a great coach and started to draft and develop good players and bring in vets. And he is one of the three best players of all time and it took them 6-7 seasons to simply make the playoffs. Expecting one player to simply be the reason why the entire team didn't buy in or to single handily win you hockey games be productive in a TEAM sport is ass backward. Again was Hall the reason for all of our poor defensive coverage? poor turnovers by defenders? Floaters kill any team did he let those pucks in? Team always reacted poorly after those ones. Do you expect Hall to be like hey that's only one goal even when he was 19-20-21-22. He was one of the younger and immature players in terms of age and expecting someone to act more their age is honestly unrealistic for most people. Every few can be a leader of a hockey club(Crosby/McDavid) and be successful.

 

[hallhopkinseberle]

He needed to be more professional. He needed to be open to coaching. He needed to be part of the solution.
He wasnt.

I have stated this multiple times already and you just ignore it because it doesn't fit your narrative.

I haven't ignored this. All I have said its unrealistic to expect professionalism from an 18-19-20 year old because I know I wasn't. Were you a professional person when you were 18-19-20?

 

[hallhopkinseberle]

Exactly.
Hall was a large part of the problem...there is no doubt about that.

How would this current team do if McDavid had the same sense of entitlement and felt that he didnt need to listen to the coaches?
How long would it take for that to ripple down through the players?
How on earth could the team improve if McDavid continued to be that self absorbed and selfish?

The best player sets the tone for the team and when Hall was here he was the best player.

Management sets the tone for the team..... Looked at Vegas last season, they didn't want to tank and wanted to win right away. Losing was never mentioned in management.

 

[guymez]

Because you guys aren't getting what I am saying. Hall simply didn't know how to win in the NHL, right we can all agree on that. Winning in the NHL is totally different than winning in the CHL. Expecting an 18-19-20 year to come in a figure how to win in the NHL all himself is unrealistic and very few are able to do that(Crosby/McDavid/Ovi/Lemieux) Those four generational players still missed the playoffs in their rookie seasons. Ovi and Lemieux longer. Look at Lemieux's situaiton they didn't start to win until management brought in a great coach and started to draft and develop good players and bring in vets. And he is one of the three best players of all time and it took them 6-7 seasons to simply make the playoffs. Expecting one player to simply be the reason why the entire team didn't buy in or to single handily win you hockey games be productive in a TEAM sport is ass backward. Again was Hall the reason for all of our poor defensive coverage? poor turnovers by defenders? Floaters kill any team did he let those pucks in? Team always reacted poorly after those ones. Do you expect Hall to be like hey that's only one goal even when he was 19-20-21-22. He was one of the younger and immature players in terms of age and expecting someone to act more their age is honestly unrealistic for most people. Every few can be a leader of a hockey club(Crosby/McDavid) and be successful.

Lets focus on one thing...a huge issue in terms of creating a healthy culture.
What caused Hall to not be open to being coached? Was that Managements fault too?

What effect on a team (and its culture) does it have when the best player on the team essentially gives the middle finger to any coach the team hires?

 

[guymez]

Management sets the tone for the team.....

Management didnt force Hall to think he was too good to listen to the coaches.

 

[NotAVacuumSalesman]

Because you guys aren't getting what I am saying. Hall simply didn't know how to win in the NHL, right we can all agree on that. Winning in the NHL is totally different than winning in the CHL. Expecting an 18-19-20 year to come in a figure how to win in the NHL all himself is unrealistic and very few are able to do that(Crosby/McDavid/Ovi/Lemieux) Those four generational players still missed the playoffs in their rookie seasons. Ovi and Lemieux longer. Look at Lemieux's situaiton they didn't start to win until management brought in a great coach and started to draft and develop good players and bring in vets. And he is one of the three best players of all time and it took them 6-7 seasons to simply make the playoffs. Expecting one player to simply be the reason why the entire team didn't buy in or to single handily win you hockey games be productive in a TEAM sport is ass backward. Again was Hall the reason for all of our poor defensive coverage? poor turnovers by defenders? Floaters kill any team did he let those pucks in? Team always reacted poorly after those ones. Do you expect Hall to be like hey that's only one goal even when he was 19-20-21-22. He was one of the younger and immature players in terms of age and expecting someone to act more their age is honestly unrealistic for most people. Every few can be a leader of a hockey club(Crosby/McDavid) and be successful.

He wasn't talking/listening to his coaches.
Not a team player.
Not setting a good example.
Not committed.
Not a good leader.

Do you understand this was Hall's issue and thats why he got traded? He did not buy in to the team mentality or tried to fix it. He was more of the problem as much as management was.

 

[hallhopkinseberle]

Lets focus on one thing...a huge issue in terms of creating a healthy culture.
What caused Hall to not be open to being coached? Was that Managements fault too?

What effect on a team (and its culture) does it have when the best player on the team essentially gives the middle finger to any coach the team hires?

I like this quote from Strudwick

"When I played with Taylor Hall and Jordan Eberle, they were young players who really had no idea how to be professionals. That’s 2010. They didn’t know how to be professionals. I look at what Taylor Hall has evolved into. He prepares as well as anyone I know of in the NHL. Did he have that in 2010? No. Did Jason Strudwick have that when he was 18. Of course not. But there’s a point where you have to move on. With Ference’s comments, I really temper that a little bit, that would have been Taylor Hall’s fourth year so he’s probably just starting to figure it out … But Taylor Hall has evolved and to me he’s the case study of the evolution of a player into a professional hockey player. Look at that guy now. Look at the way he prepares, he practices, he works out. He is a freak. And that’s the reason he had the year he had last year.”

 

[BudBundy]

as a player you have to eventually clue in that it requires team play and playing the right way to win games. it's not all on management. hall became satisfied with losing and padding his stats.

What % of your posts are purely to slag Hall. 90%? I never see you on anything else. Honestly. What is your vendetta?

As for the whole big picture, Hall is a dominant Hart Trophy winner and there is no reason why, with better management, he couldnt have been what he is today in Edmonton. Period.

 

[hallhopkinseberle]

He wasn't talking/listening to his coaches.
Not a team player.
Not setting a good example.
Not committed.
Not a good leader.

Do you understand this was Hall's issue and thats why he got traded?

Expecting an 18-19-20-21-22 year old to that in any professional sports team environment is unrealistic. Most professional sports don't even have teenagers or 20 or 21 year olds on their team. You don't just flip a switch and figure out how to become a team player, good leader, or committed it is something that you learn from experience, by making mistakes,etc.

Look at the QB position in Football, they are expected to be the leader of the football team and set the tone,etc. How many 21-24 year old Qb's have done that? It's something that they have learned over time.

 

[guymez]

I like this quote from Strudwick

"When I played with Taylor Hall and Jordan Eberle, they were young players who really had no idea how to be professionals. That’s 2010. They didn’t know how to be professionals. I look at what Taylor Hall has evolved into. He prepares as well as anyone I know of in the NHL. Did he have that in 2010? No. Did Jason Strudwick have that when he was 18. Of course not. But there’s a point where you have to move on. With Ference’s comments, I really temper that a little bit, that would have been Taylor Hall’s fourth year so he’s probably just starting to figure it out … But Taylor Hall has evolved and to me he’s the case study of the evolution of a player into a professional hockey player. Look at that guy now. Look at the way he prepares, he practices, he works out. He is a freak. And that’s the reason he had the year he had last year.”

Struckwicks comments dont address the point I was making at all.
You notice that he didnt address the issue that Hall wasnt open to coaching...why was that?
Its just a politically correct way of skirting the real issue at hand here and not coming down on a player he is friends with.

The trade and subsequent meetings woith NJ Management happened for a reason and thats the reason why Hall turned himself around. Sometimes it takes a shock to the system to shake you up enough to look in the mirror and change your ways. Thats what happened to Hall. That was never going to happen here.

Its clear that you are committed to your perspective and are not budging.

Thats fine but I dont care to go around in circles with you on this. The only people that think Hall is without blame here are people whose perspectives are obscured by their love for the player.

 

[NotAVacuumSalesman]

Expecting an 18-19-20-21-22 year old to that in any professional sports team environment is unrealistic. Most professional sports don't even have teenagers or 20 or 21 year olds on their team. You don't just flip a switch and figure out how to become a team player, good leader, or committed it is something that you learn from experience, by making mistakes,etc.

Because he wasn't listening to what his coaches tell him.

 

[NotAVacuumSalesman]

I like this quote from Strudwick

"When I played with Taylor Hall and Jordan Eberle, they were young players who really had no idea how to be professionals. That’s 2010. They didn’t know how to be professionals. I look at what Taylor Hall has evolved into. He prepares as well as anyone I know of in the NHL. Did he have that in 2010? No. Did Jason Strudwick have that when he was 18. Of course not. But there’s a point where you have to move on. With Ference’s comments, I really temper that a little bit, that would have been Taylor Hall’s fourth year so he’s probably just starting to figure it out … But Taylor Hall has evolved and to me he’s the case study of the evolution of a player into a professional hockey player. Look at that guy now. Look at the way he prepares, he practices, he works out. He is a freak. And that’s the reason he had the year he had last year.”

Do you understand the context between what's being said here and the issue he had when he was in Edmonton???

 

[hallhopkinseberle]

Struckwicks comments dont address the point I was making at all.
You notice that he didnt address the issue that Hall wasnt open to coaching...why was that?
Its just a politically correct way of skirting the real issue at hand here and not coming down on a player he is friends with.

Its clear that you are committed to your perspective and are not budging.

Thats fine but I dont care to go around in circles with you on this.

Strudwick's comment is what I am trying to say. Its unrealistic for any young adult to lead a professional sports team.

Look at the QB position in Football, they are expected to be the leader of the football team and set the tone, etc. How many 21-24-year-old Qb's have done that? It's something that they have learned over time.

 

[guymez]

Strudwick's comment is what I am trying to say. Its unrealistic for any young adult to lead a professional sports team.

Look at the QB position in Football, they are expected to be the leader of the football team and set the tone, etc. How many 21-24-year-old Qb's have done that? It's something that they have learned over time.

A young player doesnt need a vet to tell him to listen to the coach. He shouldnt need to be told to be open to being coached.
Struds comment was politically correct and had no substance to it.
Surely you can see that.

 

[hallhopkinseberle]

Do you understand the context between what's being said here and the issue he had when he was in Edmonton???

Yes but do you understand what I am trying to get at? that it is unrealistic for an 18-19-20-21-22-23-24-year-old to be a leader for a professional hockey team. or any professional sports team look at the QB position in Football, they are expected to be the leader of the football team and set the tone,etc. How many 21-24 year old Qb's have done that? It's something that they have learned over time.

 

[hallhopkinseberle]

A young player doesnt need a vet to tell him to listen to the coach. He shouldnt need to be told to be open to being coached.
Struds comment was politically correct and had no substance to it.
Surely you can see that.

Ya you are right Hall probably should've listen to his coaches. But he was a young player that is still trying to learn how to be a pro. You don't just wake up one day and be like I am a professional person. Expecting him to be that leader from day one was unrealistic and Management should've tried to bring in a better leader to set the tone. And by failing to do so, created the Hall problem.

 

[guymez]

Yes but do you understand what I am trying to get at? that it is unrealistic for an 18-19-20-21-22-23-24-year-old to be a leader for a professional hockey team. or any professional sports team look at the QB position in Football, they are expected to be the leader of the football team and set the tone,etc. How many 21-24 year old Qb's have done that? It's something that they have learned over time.

Is the QB expected to listen to the coach? Does being 18 -24 years old preclude you from having enough respect for the coaching staff and your teammates to be receptive to coaching?

 

[hallhopkinseberle]

Is the QB expected to listen to the coach? Does being 18 -24 years old preclude you from having enough respect for the coaching staff and your teammates to be receptive to coaching?

Yes but again expecting an 18-24 years old to set the tone of the franchise is simply unrealistic is it not? He needed someone showing him the way from day one.

Hall's quote about not listening to coaches
“He’s probably given me the most accountability that any coach I had in Edmonton. I really think that’s been good for me personally. Just in Edmonton, I really didn’t want to talk to coaches. I didn’t really want to have dialogue with coaches. I just wanted to play. And a lot of guys are like that.”

Where did he get that idea I wonder. veterans that were already there in Edmonton?

 

[guymez]

Ya you are right Hall probably should've listen to his coaches. But he was a young player that is still trying to learn how to be a pro. You don't just wake up one day and be like I am a professional person.

No...not probably should have listened to his coaches. Absolutely should have listened to his coaches.
Its a black and white deal....there is no gray.

I dont think you understand how big of a deal this one issue is and it has nothing what so ever to do with learning how to be a good pro.
Its about respect for the team and your teammates and its something you show up with when you go to a new team.
Its not age dependent.
Its not only a coach killer but its toxic to the team.

 

[hallhopkinseberle]

No...not probably should have listened to his coaches. Absolutely should have listened to his coaches.
Its a black and white deal....there is no gray.

I dont think you understand how big of a deal this one issue is and it has nothing what so ever to do with learning how to be a good pro.
Its about respect for the team and your teammates and its something you show up with when you go to a new team.
Its not age dependent.
Its not only a coach killer but its toxic to the team.

Alright, but do we even know he didn't listen to his coaches at all? Again at the end of the day he finally learned he f***ed up actually listens to his coaches now so what message did Devil coach/management send that Oilers didn't?

 

[guymez]

Yes but again expecting an 18-24 years old to set the tone of the franchise is simply unrealistic is it not? He needed someone showing him the way from day one.

Hall's quote about not listening to coaches
“He’s probably given me the most accountability that any coach I had in Edmonton. I really think that’s been good for me personally. Just in Edmonton, I really didn’t want to talk to coaches. I didn’t really want to have dialogue with coaches. I just wanted to play. And a lot of guys are like that.”

Where did he get that idea I wonder. veterans that were already there in Edmonton?

You highlighted the wrong line. Hall is just justifying his decision to not listen to the coaches and its pretty lame IMO.

Here is what you should have highlighted.....

I really didn’t want to talk to coaches. I didn’t really want to have dialogue with coaches.

This is coming from the best player on the team. the player that sets the tone for the rest of the team.
This is a quality that simply cant be tolerated on any team that expects to build a winning culture and its entirely on Hall.