Interesting insight from Andrew Ference (31 Thoughts: The Podcast)

[hallhopkinseberle]

They brought in a winning cup vet and a rookie coach to try and fix it.
Didn't work cause Hall had issues with them.
Time to blame management.

By then it was too late. They shouldve brought in those guys earlier than 5 seasons later or whatever it has been at that point.

 

[NotAVacuumSalesman]

He was alternate captain in his Rookie season? That's news to me. Was he even alternate captain in his 2nd season?

You can research that yourself. I don't need to spoonfeed you info.

 

[guymez]

Ya I agree Hall shouldve listened to his coaches. I am acknowledging your point. I am simply just explaining why Hall was like that and management shouldve done a better job supporting him.
Bringing McDavid up wasn't saying he was going to not listening to coaches. I was just worried that the pressure would get to him or smt. Idk I'm not worried now and haven't been for awhile.

I think that a lot of young players are immature when they show up to an NHL team for the first time. I think the difference here is that Hall wasnt just immature...he had let things get to his head and felt he was above listening to anybody about how to improve his game. He had become arrogant.
Getting the big salary definitely didnt help...it likely made things worse for Hall.
I think what Ference was suggesting is that there was just no reaching Hall when he got there. If Hall wasnt going to listen to the coaches then he sure as hell wasnt going to listen to a vet on the downside of his career.
There was likely not anybody that he was going to listen to by the sounds of it.

Good for Hall that he has matured and changed. Too bad it took a trade for that to happen.

 

[hallhopkinseberle]

Its 4:24pm here. You're the one with autism lol

Is that all you know is how to call someone autistic?

I remember reading somewhere that people who tend to insult people by saying that they have low Iq tend to actually have low iq because they are insecure about their intelligence. Could be wrong and just a meme though.

 

[hallhopkinseberle]

I think that a lot of young players are immature when they show up to an NHL team for the first time. I think the difference here is that Hall wasnt just immature...he had let things get to his head and felt he was above listening to anybody about how to improve his game. He had become arrogant.
Getting the big salary definitely didnt help...it likely made things worse for Hall.
I think what Ference was suggesting is that there was just no reaching Hall when he got there. If Hall wasnt going to listen to the coaches then he sure as hell wasnt going to listen to a vet on the downside of his career.
There was likely not anybody that he was going to listen to by the sounds of it.

Good for Hall that he has matured and changed. Too bad it took a trade for that to happen.

I think Hall would matured quicker and sooner if there was some sort of winning culture in place when he joined the team. If that makes any sense.

 

[NotAVacuumSalesman]

Is that all you know is how to call someone autistic?

I remember reading somewhere that people who tend to insult people by saying that they have low Iq tend to actually have low iq because they are insecure about their intelligence. Could be wrong and just a meme though.

I'm told people who ask a lot of questions are low in IQ.

This must be true.

 

[hallhopkinseberle]

I'm told people who ask a lot of questions are low in IQ.

This must be true.

Actually that's the opposite and you can't be more wrong. It's people that think they have all the answers are low in Iq because it's impossible to have all the answers.

People that ask questions atleast know it's impossible to have all the answers.

 

[guymez]

I think Hall would matured quicker and sooner if there was some sort of winning culture in place when he joined the team. If that makes any sense.

Perhaps...that doesn't sound completely unlikely to me. If the team would have been a vet heavy team with a clearly defined culture then its possible that would have made a difference.

The thing is that teams like that typically dont draft 1st overall. Hall was destined to go to a rebuilding team which in most cases means a team that is in the beginning stages of building a new culture.

Dont mistake my perspective on this ashating on Hall. Hell I bought his jersey for my son...I liked the player. Its sobering to me to learn about some of the stuuf that went on during those years. i dont like it one bit. It pisses me off to be honest.
These reports make sense...they explain a lot of what happened in the DoD. They deserve to be heard.
These accounts provide insight into things. I get that its hard for some people to hear but when you couple the player attitudes with Management mistakes it explains everything IMO.
You get what we witnessed for 10 years.

 

[NotAVacuumSalesman]

Actually that's the opposite and you can't be more wrong. It's people that think they have all the answers are low in Iq because it's impossible to have all the answers.

People that ask questions atleast know it's impossible to have all the answers.

Can't be wrong if I'm not suggesting it

 

[hallhopkinseberle]

Perhaps...that doesn't sound completely unlikely to me. If the team would have been a vet heavy team with a clearly defined culture then its possible that would have made a difference.

The thing is that teams like that typically dont draft 1st overall. Hall was destined to go to a rebuilding team which in most cases means a team that is in the beginning stages of building a new culture.

Idk I think management shouldve added more than the 4th line grinders and bottom pairing dmen and actually tried to support Hall with quality vets but wtv that's the past and we got McDavid.

 

[guymez]

Idk I think management shouldve added more than the 4th line grinders and bottom pairing dmen and actually tried to support Hall with quality vets but wtv that's the past and we got McDavid.

I agree but that doesnt absolve Hall of his role in things.
Thats where you and I differ.

I think 20 years from now if you were to have a beer with Hall I think he would own his part in what happened.

I think Management thought they could replicate the recipe of what happened in the 80's...draft a bunch of young kids and let them grow together. It was a fail for sure but was it a fail because of the lack of vets or was it a fail because of the immaturity and obstinate mindset of the core players (primarily Hall)?

Likely a little of both.

 

[RegDunlop]

Lets focus on one thing...a huge issue in terms of creating a healthy culture.
What caused Hall to not be open to being coached? Was that Managements fault too?

What effect on a team (and its culture) does it have when the best player on the team essentially gives the middle finger to any coach the team hires?

Sorry
I am wading back into this. Can't help myself!
"What caused Hall to not be open to being coached"? Hmmm.... well perhaps it was the most ridiculous person masquerading as a professional that was hired by a buffoon who didnt have a clue about what he was doing.
That might be a start.

I'd love for someone to corroborate Ferrence's story. He says crap on a podcast and everyone believes it.

And as far as giving the middle finger, ... well we all know who has the most experience with that!

 

[McShogun99]

Why didn't Hall have any problems listening to Renney or Kruger? Eakins sucked the life out of this team. Minus marathon cyclist, Ference, not to many players were listening to Eakins.

 

[MaxR11]

Hall is a coach killer now. I've heard it all. His coach for two seasons here was Eakins and he resisted any temptation to kill him. He could be canonized for that alone. Hall is a saint.

Honestly, who here could listen to Eakins for even 1 or 2 weeks. Hall lasted with this sheer idiocy for two years without calling it out. Picture of class. But the usuals here retroactively respinning reality.

lol, sorry man, but this is so dumb. if anything it was the other way around. EAKINS was likely the one resisting the urge to kill hall. the thing people KEEP overlooking is how much better would this team have been under eakins IF your few best offensive players bought into what eakins and ference were trying to teach them? as mediocre or poor a coach as eakins may or may not have been i would say that team would have been significantly better if hall and co bought in instead of becoming a terrible distraction. the disconnect btw the two sides made this team a joke far more so than the talent or bad coaching.
yes, hall is a coach killer.

 

[BudBundy]

lol, sorry man, but this is so dumb. if anything it was the other way around. EAKINS was likely the one resisting the urge to kill hall. the thing people KEEP overlooking is how much better would this team have been under eakins IF your few best offensive players bought into what eakins and ference were trying to teach them? as mediocre or poor a coach as eakins may or may not have been i would say that team would have been significantly better if hall and co bought in instead of becoming a terrible distraction. the disconnect btw the two sides made this team a joke far more so than the talent or bad coaching.
yes, hall is a coach killer.

Hey look, it’s good ol monotone.

 

[guymez]

Sorry
I am wading back into this. Can't help myself!
"What caused Hall to not be open to being coached"? Hmmm.... well perhaps it was the most ridiculous person masquerading as a professional that was hired by a buffoon who didnt have a clue about what he was doing.
That might be a start.

I'd love for someone to corroborate Ferrence's story. He says crap on a podcast and everyone believes it.

And as far as giving the middle finger, ... well we all know who has the most experience with that!

Reg...you do realize that Taylor Hall himself said he that he didnt listen to the coaches during his time in Edmonton.
Plural...not singular. That is a damning admission. Even if it was just Eakins its not excusable. Its a team destroying decision that Hall made. Surely you see that. Just imagine for a minute the discord that would materialize on the current team if its best player decided he didnt have to listen to the coahces anymore. This team would be sunk...period. The org would need to trade him to repair that and it would mess up the team for years.
Its a very damaging decision.

Also...Ference was asked a question and he answered it honestly. Why do you have such an issue with that? Its not like Ference has no credibility....he witnessed the entire thing.
He has no reason to lie at this point in time.

You know as well as I do that players are loathe to talk about what really goes on behind the scenes. The deal here is that Ferences input fits perfectly with what Hall has said himself and with what we witnessed on the ice during that time. You dont have a dysfunctional team without dysfunctional players.
Unless of course your narrative is to absolve Hall of any responsibility which is fine but it just so happens that makes no sense what so ever.

 

[Jamin]

So the team is playing better under hitch. The only trade was Spooner which I dont believe is the reason for turnaround. So if its possible Hitch can fully uplift the teams culture would it not also be possible Eakins brought down the culture?

Smug "thinks his shit dont stink" cyclist comes in as coach and names another smug cyclist (who never played a game in market) as captain. Why is there a divide in the locker room must be all the 22 year olds fault...

Notice every rebuild that hasnt been a dumpster fire like ours has real vets to teach the younglings how to be a pro.

I think you give Hall a good vet or even let him play even one season where making playoffs wasnt over by 3rd week of October and there isnt a culture issue (too much smoke to not be fire but still blame Mac T, Eakins and Ference more).

 

[Drivesaitl]

Hey look, it’s good ol monotone.

Its really hard to respond (or not) to a post that starts "this is so dumb." Because you know not much good is going to come out of any exchange framed in that.

 

[Drivesaitl]

So the team is playing better under hitch. The only trade was Spooner which I dont believe is the reason for turnaround. So if its possible Hitch can fully uplift the teams culture would it not also be possible Eakins brought down the culture?

Smug "thinks his **** dont stink" cyclist comes in as coach and names another smug cyclist (who never played a game in market) as captain. Why is there a divide in the locker room must be all the 22 year olds fault...

Notice every rebuild that hasnt been a dumpster fire like ours has real vets to teach the younglings how to be a pro.

I think you give Hall a good vet or even let him play even one season where making playoffs wasnt over by 3rd week of October and there isnt a culture issue (too much smoke to not be fire but still blame Mac T, Eakins and Ference more).

Like I said earlier its critical for any young team to have some vets that are age 24-28 as those usually are the age cohort glue in a pro sports lineup. You need some vets, yes, but you need some that can bridge young and old on a team. An illustration is provided by Perron there in the water bottle video. There is Perron patting Hall on the back and saying don't worry about it man, its sideways. I would bank on it that Perron is supporting Hall there and that its mutually felt. Nor was Perron a shit disturber on that team. He was just helping Hall to de-escalate and his actions achieved that. THAT is what support looks like. It isn't Ference tattling on the players or Boyd Gordon not saying a word and looking like he hated it here.

The other guy I mention was Hendricks. I can't find fault with any aspect of how he conducted himself here, and the players, young and old, liked him. He was outside the typical age range of glue in a lineup (age 24-28) but he likable, cool, appropriate and most of all was uplifting.

 

[Drivesaitl]

I think Hall would matured quicker and sooner if there was some sort of winning culture in place when he joined the team. If that makes any sense.

The reality is that Hall was more mature than any of us at respective ages and went through more challenges, career wise, than any of us at comparable age.

The premise that Hall was immature for his age is outlandish.

You don't get to be best on earth at your age by being woefully incomplete in character, or immature.

Hall likely had a very early maturity. When other kids would be out doing some mischief he would be working hard honing his hockey skills. Excellence, in almost any endeavor, required utter focus, commitment, cough, maturity.


What people are talking about is another thing. Its possibly a case of miswording. It isn't maturity Hall would lack, he may have become the type of person that for awhile was more immune to the influence of others. Which comes with seasoning, experience, but also if there happens to be anybody in the room that commands respect.

The moment McD and Drai landed here, and with their alpha personas and no shit attitude there was not going to be any problem with Taylor Hall. The serious intent of the other two was going to be able to reshape Taylor Hall. It already was.

 

[Zaddy]

The reality is that Hall was more mature than any of us at respective ages and went through more challenges, career wise, than any of us at comparable age.

The premise that Hall was immature for his age is outlandish.

You don't get to be best on earth at your age by being woefully incomplete in character, or immature.

Hall likely had a very early maturity. When other kids would be out doing some mischief he would be working hard honing his hockey skills. Excellence, in almost any endeavor, required utter focus, commitment, cough, maturity.


What people are talking about is another thing. Its possibly a case of miswording. It isn't maturity Hall would lack, he may have become the type of person that for awhile was more immune to the influence of others. Which comes with seasoning, experience, but also if there happens to be anybody in the room that commands respect.

The moment McD and Drai landed here, and with their alpha personas and no **** attitude there was not going to be any problem with Taylor Hall. The serious intent of the other two was going to be able to reshape Taylor Hall. It already was.

Based on what exactly? A lot of hockey players come from a privileged background and have hardly had any obstacles to deal with in their life, that rings especially true for naturally talented players like Hall.

I've also never really bought this argument that because you're in your young 20's or whatever you can't be expected to be "mature" and this whole boys will be boys type thing. Just because you're young doesn't mean you can't be professional and take your craft seriously.

I always find it ridiculous when people make excuses for people in their late teens and early 20's. In my mind, you are mature and experienced enough at age 15-16 to be able to identify what's the right thing to do and what's the wrong thing to do.

It's just that most people don't care about it, probably largely because they know there won't be any consequences since it always get swept under the rug due to their age, which is really silly to me.

 

[guymez]

Based on what exactly? A lot of hockey players come from a privileged background and have hardly had any obstacles to deal with in their life, that rings especially true for naturally talented players like Hall.

I've also never really bought this argument that because you're in your young 20's or whatever you can't be expected to be "mature" and this whole boys will be boys type thing. Just because you're young doesn't mean you can't be professional and take your craft seriously.

I always find it ridiculous when people make excuses for people in their late teens and early 20's. In my mind, you are mature and experienced enough at age 15-16 to be able to identify what's the right thing to do and what's the wrong thing to do.

It's just that most people don't care about it, probably largely because they know there won't be any consequences since it always get swept under the rug due to their age, which is really silly to me.

Solid post.
Your first paragraph is IMO a large part of the issue. Young players react differently to a set of circumstances like that. Some players (like McDavid) stay grounded. Some players (like Hall) dont.

 

[guymez]

So the team is playing better under hitch. The only trade was Spooner which I dont believe is the reason for turnaround. So if its possible Hitch can fully uplift the teams culture would it not also be possible Eakins brought down the culture?

Smug "thinks his **** dont stink" cyclist comes in as coach and names another smug cyclist (who never played a game in market) as captain. Why is there a divide in the locker room must be all the 22 year olds fault...

Notice every rebuild that hasnt been a dumpster fire like ours has real vets to teach the younglings how to be a pro.

I think you give Hall a good vet or even let him play even one season where making playoffs wasnt over by 3rd week of October and there isnt a culture issue (too much smoke to not be fire but still blame Mac T, Eakins and Ference more).

The circumstances behind Hitchs arrival and the mess that Hall helped create are not even remotely comparable.

 

[RegDunlop]

Reg...you do realize that Taylor Hall himself said he that he didnt listen to the coaches during his time in Edmonton.
Plural...not singular. That is a damning admission. Even if it was just Eakins its not excusable. Its a team destroying decision that Hall made. Surely you see that. Just imagine for a minute the discord that would materialize on the current team if its best player decided he didnt have to listen to the coahces anymore. This team would be sunk...period. The org would need to trade him to repair that and it would mess up the team for years.
Its a very damaging decision.

Also...Ference was asked a question and he answered it honestly. Why do you have such an issue with that? Its not like Ference has no credibility....he witnessed the entire thing.
He has no reason to lie at this point in time.

You know as well as I do that players are loathe to talk about what really goes on behind the scenes. The deal here is that Ferences input fits perfectly with what Hall has said himself and with what we witnessed on the ice during that time. You dont have a dysfunctional team without dysfunctional players.
Unless of course your narrative is to absolve Hall of any responsibility which is fine but it just so happens that makes no sense what so ever.

Thanks guymez for your response.

Pehaps I don't make my issue with this ordeal properly. I really have no problem with what was said. And I do in fact believe that most of it is / was true.
I guess I'll try to one more time illiterate what I take offence to.

i) that it was Andrew Ferrence himself saying these things when I personally hold him as responsible if not more than anyone else at the time.
ii) that what he says is just accepted as truth. Again I do believe most of it, but cannot fathom all of it. Maybe I'm more naive than I think.
iii) I cant seem to get over the fact that many people feel this was a simple response to a question. Thus was a scripted, bated, prior discussed topic, not a 'I just answered the question honestly' interview. I may be more inclined to give more credence if Jeff Merek wasn't involved but that's a different story.
iv) this may be arguing semantics and I may also be incorrect - but I thought the statement Hall gave was that he never talked to his coaches, that he just wanted to play. I related to that as someone who is just absorbed in his environment, immature, thinking he could do anything, including NOT LISTENING. However to me I took it as him feeling he could do better. A ridiculous attitude of course, and so clearly devastating to a team environment as you say, but I cant imagine how much or what Eakins was pitching that any of them could take. And I'm only taking Eakins not his other coaches.
I'm still on the side that if he disrupted, devalued, discredited, or otherwise sabotaged the coach's (even Eakins) message or plan, than that is on him and as others say, he paid the price with the org finally realizing it by trading him. I'm on record for hating the trade but always understood why it needed to happen.

Anyway I enjoy the eye opening for both sides of the argument. And truth be told I'm not really sure what irritates me so much about the whole thing. As I've said I wasn't much of a Ferrence fan, but I don't recall being against him thus much!

 

[Drivesaitl]

Based on what exactly? A lot of hockey players come from a privileged background and have hardly had any obstacles to deal with in their life, that rings especially true for naturally talented players like Hall.

I've also never really bought this argument that because you're in your young 20's or whatever you can't be expected to be "mature" and this whole boys will be boys type thing. Just because you're young doesn't mean you can't be professional and take your craft seriously.

I always find it ridiculous when people make excuses for people in their late teens and early 20's. In my mind, you are mature and experienced enough at age 15-16 to be able to identify what's the right thing to do and what's the wrong thing to do.

It's just that most people don't care about it, probably largely because they know there won't be any consequences since it always get swept under the rug due to their age, which is really silly to me.

You sound older than me in this post. heh, just jk around with you.

The only time we get to be young is when we are young.

Winning was not on here during Halls tenure. So he may as well enjoy himself once in awhile. I can't really fault him for that. Life is fleeting, live life!


jk aside I can't agree with your premise at all. Hockey is huge lifetime work. Attaining excellence at anything is. Just a quick comment that I was an 6-8yr old chess wizard. I would beat anybody I played. Adults, other kids, etc. I was reading books on chess matches and strategy by age 9. By the age of 12 I had come to terms with not wanting to continue to become excellent at chess as it would have taken up my life. I was also bright enough to realize what it was doing to some players like Fischer. To continue to be competitive in Chess would have required continued lifelong dedication. I simply wasn't interested in dedicating my life to that sort of sole pursuit.

I think if we take a step back the castigating excellence that we so commonly here is extreme distortion.

The other point you made about age 15-16 is that neurological study paints a different picture. That the human brain is still undeveloped at age and that its still prone to impulsivity, difficulties with perception, awareness, as well as emotional challenges. The 14yr old brain does not process or resolve conflict the same way a 30yr old brain typically would. Obviously exceptions. Some individuals like Connor seem to go through life without ever encountering adolescence, immaturity, etc, and according to his parents the only challenges they had with Connor is trying to get him to do things other than hockey or stop wrecking the garage door with slapshots..

Finally, its funny how you phrased "In my mind" because you are retroactively approaching this from a current adult narrative perspective. When you were 14 or 15 did you not do any wtf things?