Rumor: In-season Proposals, Rumors, Free Agents & Roster Moves (related topics) XLII

[henchman21]

I just don't see who we could reasonably acquire that would make a trade of Sgarbossa for Klesla not look decent.

I'd rather take a risk on Meszaros for a conditional pick. That is a player that if he can get healthy is worth the risk.

 

[Foppa2118]

Klesla very well could play top pairing minutes and anchor for EJ, but so could Hejda, so could anybody else on our defensive group. They all could but none of them should. We don't need to bring in any more players to play out of their element. We have enough of them already. If we're going to bring in a guy to play top pairing minutes, he should be a top pairing guy. Klesla isn't a top pairng guy.

I don't know why you or anybody else would think we aren't bringing it a top pairing guy. We have 4 centres who are (or in a year or two) all 1st line Centres. If you guys don't think one of those will be used to bring back a top pair guy you completely underestimate our staff. The team isn't ran by clowns who think any small improvement will get us a stanley cup. They are going to make moves for the pieces we need. Pieces like a top pairing defenseman. If it takes an addition of Sgarbossa to be added to somebody like ROR to get our guy, then it's time to make a move.

edit: I'd also like to add, even if you think Sgarbossa isn't going to be much in the NHL you have to understand he's our best forward prospect. So if he's not going to be much and we trade him away for one year of a second pairing D which might help us finish 9th instead of 10th, imagine how bad our prospect pool will look then. We have a great young core of players who have already made it and that will get us to where we hope to be in the future, but in reality there's injuries and cold streaks where you still need to have second options and prospects that can do their best to fill in. You need Mike Sgarbossa's behind you 2 years from now much more than you need a player who walked away in Rusty Klesla.

You should not be comparing Klesla to the Avs defenseman. Saying he could play next to EJ the same way any of the Avs defenseman can is simply untrue.

He is a very good defensive defenseman, and could play next to EJ MUCH MUCH better than anyone except maybe Hejda, who should be kept with Barrie.

There is too big of an obsession with the Avs prospect pool IMO too. It's deceivingly shallow because the Avs best prospects have made the team and are playing big roles.

Would you feel better or worse about the Avs "prospect pool" if you could add MacKinnon's and Landeskog's name to it?

 

[henchman21]

Ok so from that assessment, can we both agree that it's still very much uncertain how he would transition to the wing at the NHL level? It sounds like the double shifts within a game included only a few shifts at wing, and his time with Barrie was 4-5 years ago as a young pup.

It was more than a few... probably 5-8 a game. I don't really have concerns with players switching to wing that have a high level of hockey sense. They all tend to get it. Any of our prospects that have top 6 potential will have to transition to wing... Hishon, Smith, Sgarbossa

 

[Cousin Eddie]

Look around the league and point out the number of top pairing defenders you think even could be moved. Then consider their team's needs. Next consider the player's relative age, salary and fit to our team.

The list is pretty small. Moving O'Reilly + Sgarbossa for Phaneuf, Giordano, etc. Bad idea. I think our team is better off keeping Staz and ROR... waiting awhile for the right top pairing guy to hit the market when more of our prospects have matured and we're a legit threat and getting by on a group of young defenders and top four guys. NJD got to the finals with a hot goalie a bunch of 2nd pairing guys. Boston got to the finals and also won the cup with a hot goalie and one top pairing defender.

I just don't see who we could reasonably acquire that would make a trade of Sgarbossa for Klesla not look decent.

Phaneuf or Giodano doesn't have to be sold for ROR + Sgarbo. They would come easier. Then we would still have Sgarbo so in two years time when we're on a run for the cup we can A) use Sgarbo if he's able to out perform others in our lineup or B) trade him for none other than RUSTY KLESLA or somebody else liek that who instead of playing above himself in a top pairing role, could play on our 3rd pairing even though he's good enough to be on other teams 2nd.

There's also guys out there like Yandle who's worth trading ROR+Sgarbo for. Maybe Jared Cowen. He could be a first pairer in a year when we need it.

Klesla just isn't worth Sgarbo right now. Mezaros is out there and can be had for a lot less than the cost of Sgarbossa. That's an upgrade which doesn't hurt us in the future.

 

[Foppa2118]

It was more than a few... probably 5-8 a game. I don't really have concerns with players switching to wing that have a high level of hockey sense. They all get it. Any of our prospects that have top 6 potential will have to transition to wing... Hishon, Smith, Sgarbossa

They may "get it" eventually, but that doesn't mean they'll keep a high level of production from the wing.

Especially when less or no PP time might come along with having to be shifted to wing because of the Avs forward depth.

 

[Cousin Eddie]

You should not be comparing Klesla to the Avs defenseman. Saying he could play next to EJ the same way any of the Avs defenseman can is simply untrue.

He is a very good defensive defenseman, and could play next to EJ MUCH MUCH better than anyone except maybe Hejda, who should be kept with Barrie.

There is too big of an obsession with the Avs prospect pool IMO too. It's deceivingly shallow because the Avs best prospects have made the team and are playing big roles.
Would you feel better or worse about the Avs "prospect pool" if you could add MacKinnon's and Landeskog's name to it?

Obviously you don't understand me. We need prospects and backups for when Mackinnon's and Landeskog's get hurt. I don't care how old or what a players title is. I care about depth and Sgarbossa is pretty much all we have outside of the guys already on our roster.

Maybe you guys have forgotten the last few years when 50% of our team has been out because of injury. Give away our top AHL'ers and who's going to fill in? Watch players walk in free agency and who's going to fill in. You don't build an organization through 18 skaters and a goalie and choose "win now". It takes time and depth and you're willing to throw it away for what we already have enough of.

 

[henchman21]

They may "get it" eventually, but that doesn't mean they'll keep a high level of production from the wing.

Especially when less or no PP time might come along with having to be shifted to wing because of the Avs forward depth.

Wings tend to produce less than centers anyway, and PP time will have to be earned by any player. Just because ROR will switch to wing this year doesn't mean that his PP time will be cut down.

 

[cgf]

I really hope we don't trade sgar, I love his combination of skill, intelligence, and not-quite-downie level of crazy chippiness. He's the kind of depth scorer you need come playoff time as he brings a ton of energy to the team with really nice hands and smarts. He could be a perfect partner for MacKinnon, like PAP is for Duchene, or he can center one of the trollingest third lines in the league with Downie and McG if we load up our top 6.

No way I'm giving him up unless he's part of a much bigger trade for another core piece, like if we packaged him with Siemens and a pick next summer to get an EJ partner who wouldn't just be passable in the role, like Klesla would be, and who had a long future ahead of him with his team in that role. But giving away sgar for a short term solution this year where the new regime will be evaluating players and busy working on extensions would just be dumb. Let our prospects gain value with another year of experience under their belt while seeing how our still incredibly young core responds to Roy, and then if ROR or Staz don't force a move at the deadline, address our issues next summer.

 

[EdAVSfan]

Look around the league and point out the number of top pairing defenders you think even could be moved. Then consider their team's needs. Next consider the player's relative age, salary and fit to our team.

The list is pretty small. Moving O'Reilly + Sgarbossa for Phaneuf, Giordano, etc. Bad idea. I think our team is better off keeping Staz and ROR... waiting awhile for the right top pairing guy to hit the market when more of our prospects have matured and we're a legit threat and getting by on a group of young defenders and top four guys. NJD got to the finals with a hot goalie a bunch of 2nd pairing guys. Boston got to the finals and also won the cup with a hot goalie and one top pairing defender.

I just don't see who we could reasonably acquire that would make a trade of Sgarbossa for Klesla not look decent.

Off the top of my head, probably guys like Enstrom, Edler, Yandle, Coburn, Phaneuf, Giordano.

Then again, none of them may be available. Also, as the season progresses, and rookies impress, sometimes other players, who you wouldnt think are available, soon become expendable due to younger players impressing.

Just since last year,
Bouwmeester
Streit
Regehr
Gonchar
Sekera
Wideman
Schenn
Visnovky
Michalek

All of these guys were moved since last offseason

Are any of these guys amazing top pairing talent, no. But they were all traded for without anything substantial going the other way.

There will be players available. Give the coaching staff time to evaluate what they have, but more importantly, what they need. Theyll get some moves done by the end of this year.

 

[bromando]

Since 2008-09, Klesla has played in 59.6% of the games his teams have played in the regular season. That's 224 games out of 376. Not the best. BTW Wilson has played 60.6% of games and it seems like he's out all the time.

 

[AvsRobin]

Flyers are 2M over the cap and closing in on Dan Cleary who is expected to be 2.0-2.75M something.

Time to offer "future considerations" for Mezsaros.

 

[henchman21]

Flyers are 2M over the cap and closing in on Dan Cleary who is expected to be 2.0-2.75M something.

Time to offer "future considerations" for Mezsaros.

It is easy to see Mez is the odd man out. I really, really hope the Avs are in on that deal because I think he could be had for a conditional 3rd with the condition that he plays 60 games, otherwise it is a 5th or something.

 

[agentblack]

I wonder what the asking price for Coburn is? I read it was high.

 

[Foppa2118]

Obviously you don't understand me. We need prospects and backups for when Mackinnon's and Landeskog's get hurt. I don't care how old or what a players title is. I care about depth and Sgarbossa is pretty much all we have outside of the guys already on our roster.

Maybe you guys have forgotten the last few years when 50% of our team has been out because of injury. Give away our top AHL'ers and who's going to fill in? Watch players walk in free agency and who's going to fill in. You don't build an organization through 18 skaters and a goalie and choose "win now". It takes time and depth and you're willing to throw it away for what we already have enough of.

I understand you perfectly. What I'm saying is that you shouldn't be so overly concerned with the prospect pool. It's deceiving because where most teams have regular prospects in their system, the Avs prospects are so good they're already on the team.

Most teams don't have a fifth year players the caliber of Duchene and O'Reilly. Most teams don't have a character 21 leader and captain like Landeskog. Most teams don't have an 18 year old dynamic talent like MacKinnon. Certainly most teams don't have all of those things, not to mention guys like McGinn, PAP, and Tanguay locked up for years.

You should be concerned with the Avs prospect pool if they had an aging group, or their key players were about to be UFA's and they had cap problems.

They have have a bunch of young and middle aged talented forwards locked up for many years. They have no cap problems. There is no strong need for young prospects for many years. Within that time they will have drafted, traded for, and signed many other forwards.

They're fine. With or without Sgarbossa.

 

[henchman21]

You should be concerned with the Avs prospect pool if they had an aging group, or their key players were about to be UFA's and they had cap problems.

So you don't think Stastny and Downie are key players?

Cap problems might start as soon as next year if Barrie, Varly, and McGinn earn big raises.

 

[Lonewolfe2015]

So you don't think Stastny and Downie are key players?

Cap problems might start as soon as next year if Barrie, Varly, and McGinn earn big raises.

I can't see us keeping McGinn if he's going to be looking for anymore than 2.5-3mil tbh. He's never shown the talent to demand more and one season does not earn you that kind of money unless you're Ryan O'Reilly.

Varly will get his fair raise, Barrie will get a bridge deal... business as usual. I've already done the math, we have ~8mil in wiggle room next year assuming a ~70mil cap.

 

[henchman21]

I can't see us keeping McGinn if he's going to be looking for anymore than 2.5-3mil tbh. He's never shown the talent to demand more and one season does not earn you that kind of money unless you're Ryan O'Reilly.

Varly will get his fair raise, Barrie will get a bridge deal... business as usual. I've already done the math, we have ~8mil in wiggle room next year assuming a ~70mil cap.

I figure that as well, but if Varly and Barrie have a huge year that could complicate the whole process.

ROR (5.5)*-Duchene(6.0)-PAP (4.0)
Landy (5.571)-Stastny (5.5)*-Tanguay (3.5)
McGinn (2.75)-Mac (3.775) - Downie (3.5)
McLeod (1.15)-Plug (1.0)-Bordy (1.0)
Plug (.75)

Barrie (4.25)**-EJ (3.75)
Hejda (3.25)-Elliott(1.5)
Wilson (2.25)-Plug (2.0)
Plug (1.0)

Varly (4.75)***
Pickard (.87)

*Team friendly deal
**Assuming a great year, Shattenkirk comparable
***Assuming a very good year with a bit of Russian factor

That is a cap hit of 67.6m. If the cap is 68m, that is just under without much wiggle room for the last roster spot. It only take a couple things to happen to push the Avs right up to the cap (lower than expected NHL revenues, and breakout performances from 2-3 players).

 

[Foppa2118]

So you don't think Stastny and Downie are key players?

Cap problems might start as soon as next year if Barrie, Varly, and McGinn earn big raises.

Having Stastny and Downie as UFA's when you have the rights to Duchene, Landeskog, MacKinnnon, PAP, Tangjuay, O'Reilly, and McGinn for 3+ years is in no way the same situation as what I was referring to.

The distinction should be pretty obvious. One leaves you in trouble if those players bolt via UFA, the other can survive quite easily.

Barrie, Varly, and McGinn won't give them cap problems. The cap is going up to $70-80M in the next few years, and they have Duchene and Landy locked into very good numbers. They'll have trouble when they have to give MacKinnon a big raise, and/or they finally bring in a #1 D man or elite winger.

 

[PAZ]

I figure that as well, but if Varly and Barrie have a huge year that could complicate the whole process.

ROR (5.5)*-Duchene(6.0)-PAP (4.0)
Landy (5.571)-Stastny (5.5)*-Tanguay (3.5)
McGinn (2.75)-Mac (3.775) - Downie (3.5)
McLeod (1.15)-Plug (1.0)-Bordy (1.0)
Plug (.75)

Barrie (4.25)**-EJ (3.75)
Hejda (3.25)-Elliott(1.5)
Wilson (2.25)-Plug (2.0)
Plug (1.0)

Varly (4.75)***
Pickard (.87)

*Team friendly deal
**Assuming a great year, Shattenkirk comparable
***Assuming a very good year with a bit of Russian factor

That is a cap hit of 67.6m. If the cap is 68m, that is just under without much wiggle room for the last roster spot. It only take a couple things to happen to push the Avs right up to the cap (lower than expected NHL revenues, and breakout performances from 2-3 players).

There's no way Barrie gets 4.75 mil unless he wins Norris or puts up 50+ points. Hamonic, Brodie, Alzner would all be similar contracts who have proven more than Barrie, and none of them are over 4 mil.

Hamonic - 7 yr/3.85 mil after being pretty established the past 2 years.
Alzner - 4 yr/2.8 mil established the past 2 years as well
Brodie - 2 yr/2.1 mil established for almost a year (shortened season).
Del Zotto - 2 yr/2.5 mil established for 1 1/2 years.

Barrie has shown glimpse, but he isn't in the same calibre as the other players yet in terms of establishing themselves in the NHL. IMO Del Zotto is the closest comparison to Barrie (Barrie will most likely be better), but as of right now i'd say Barrie gets 3 mil max, even with a strong season.

Shatty got that contract after 2 1/2 years of putting around ~0.5 ppg.

 

[bromando]

I understand you perfectly. What I'm saying is that you shouldn't be so overly concerned with the prospect pool. It's deceiving because where most teams have regular prospects in their system, the Avs prospects are so good they're already on the team.

Most teams don't have a fifth year players the caliber of Duchene and O'Reilly. Most teams don't have a character 21 leader and captain like Landeskog. Most teams don't have an 18 year old dynamic talent like MacKinnon. Certainly most teams don't have all of those things, not to mention guys like McGinn, PAP, and Tanguay locked up for years.

You should be concerned with the Avs prospect pool if they had an aging group, or their key players were about to be UFA's and they had cap problems.

They have have a bunch of young and middle aged talented forwards locked up for many years. They have no cap problems. There is no strong need for young prospects for many years. Within that time they will have drafted, traded for, and signed many other forwards.

They're fine. With or without Sgarbossa.

Stastny and Downie are both UFA's. ROR and McGinn are both RFA's. That leave 5 forwards locked up for multiple years. I'd love to see all of these guys back, and I'd love to see none of them ever get injured and need a replacement, but I don't think that's realistic.

 

[henchman21]

Having Stastny and Downie as UFA's when you have the rights to Duchene, Landeskog, MacKinnnon, PAP, Tangjuay, O'Reilly, and McGinn for 3+ years is in no way the same situation as what I was referring to.

The distinction should be pretty obvious. One leaves you in trouble if those players bolt via UFA, the other can survive quite easily.

So what is the situation if both leave next year AND you trade away Sgarbossa?

Landy-Duchene-PAP
Tanguay-Mac-overpaid UFA
McGinn-ROR-McLeod/Agozzino/Hishon
Bordy/McLeod-Heard/Condon-Malone

Or

Landy-Duchene-PAP
Tanguay-ROR-Mac
McGinn-Malone-McLeod/Agozzino/Hishon
Bordy-Condon-Heard

I'm sorry, but that is a very significant downgrade in forward quality. Sgarbossa doesn't solve that issue, but he at least gives an option that might be NHL ready at that point.

 

[Foppa2118]

Stastny and Downie are both UFA's. ROR and McGinn are both RFA's. That leave 5 forwards locked up for multiple years. I'd love to see all of these guys back, and I'd love to see none of them ever get injured and need a replacement, but I don't think that's realistic.

See my response in regard to Stastny and Downie above.

ROR and McGinn being RFA's doesn't matter. The point is they own their rights, and if they decide not to keep them, they get something in return if they trade them.

Why is it unrealistic to have Duchene, MacKinnon, Landeskog, PAP, and Tanguay on the team and relatively healthy? It's just as realistic for any other team to keep five players and have them be relatively healthy.

 

[henchman21]

There's no way Barrie gets 4.75 mil unless he wins Norris or puts up 50+ points. Hamonic, Brodie, Alzner would all be similar contracts who have proven more than Barrie, and none of them are over 4 mil.

Hamonic - 7 yr/3.85 mil after being pretty established the past 2 years.
Alzner - 4 yr/2.8 mil established the past 2 years as well
Brodie - 2 yr/2.1 mil established for almost a year (shortened season).
Del Zotto - 2 yr/2.5 mil established for 1 1/2 years.

Barrie has shown glimpse, but he isn't in the same calibre as the other players yet in terms of establishing themselves in the NHL. IMO Del Zotto is the closest comparison to Barrie (Barrie will most likely be better), but as of right now i'd say Barrie gets 3 mil max, even with a strong season.

Shatty got that contract after 2 1/2 years of putting around ~0.5 ppg.

First, it was 4.25. Second, it was on the premise that he had a breakout year. Third, it was based on Shatty who is very comparable to Barrie if Barrie has a breakout season. Fourth, Barrie cannot be compared to Hamonic, Alzner, and Brodie... they play different styles of games and bring different things to the table. Fifth, it was just an example of how quickly the Avs could get into cap trouble if everything fell right.

 

[Foppa2118]

So what is the situation if both leave next year AND you trade away Sgarbossa?

Landy-Duchene-PAP
Tanguay-Mac-overpaid UFA
McGinn-ROR-McLeod/Agozzino/Hishon
Bordy/McLeod-Heard/Condon-Malone

Or

Landy-Duchene-PAP
Tanguay-ROR-Mac
McGinn-Malone-McLeod/Agozzino/Hishon
Bordy-Condon-Heard

I'm sorry, but that is a very significant downgrade in forward quality. Sgarbossa doesn't solve that issue, but he at least gives an option that might be NHL ready at that point.

Oh please that's a Strawman. Signing an over priced UFA is the only other option if Stastny leaves and Sgarbossa is traded?

That first lineup is not that bad at all, especially considering they could add to it with a trade or UFA. I'm not really sure why you'd be so upset with that core group?

It's also some made up worst case scenario where they don't get anything in trade for Stastny, they don't re-sign Downie for reasons not explained, and you didn't take into account they could have re-signed Klesla making the D better. So worst case scenario, they still have Duchene, Landy, PAP, Tanguay, ROR, McGinn, and MacKinnon? That's a big deal?

 

[henchman21]

Oh please that's a Strawman. Signing an over priced UFA is the only other option if Stastny leaves and Sgarbossa is traded?

That first lineup is not that bad at all, especially considering they could add to it with a trade or UFA. I'm not really sure why you'd be so upset with that core group?

It's also some made up worst case scenario where they don't get anything in trade for Stastny, they don't re-sign Downie for reasons not explained, and you didn't take into account they could have re-signed Klesla making the D better. So worst case scenario, they still have Duchene, Landy, PAP, Tanguay, ROR, McGinn, and MacKinnon? That's a big deal?

What exactly is the other option? Let Hishon have a shot, even if he hasn't played much in 2 season? Agozzino? Heard? Condon? etc.

Who is the trade bait that can bring back a 2nd line wing? Barrie? Siemens? Bigras? ROR in a deal that brings back two pieces?

The point is that it can possibly make the forward group significantly worse than it currently is, and not improve the defense for 14-15.